points and choreography

[theM.A.dDogge]

the reason their are so mant differnt ways to teach ..."stage combat"...is becuase their are so mant different reasons...or intentions to fight.....

for example....if a choeographed fight sequence...is meant to highlight the historical accuratnence of whatreally happend...or a dance group means to shoe the fluidity of a style...or a comedic recital intends to show th comic view of fighting...well...you have diferent reasons to choreograph...and different things to highlight....some may be more dance related...hjece the highlight on footeowork...then others....

ok....enugh tyopigng...heading to bedbefore io pass out...

HAPPY NEW YEAR>>>AND TO ALL A GOOD NIGHT....

[RustyNell]

LOL... Hope you slept well..Happy New Year Mad Dogge and thanks for stepping up and offering to share your method with us. I look forward to the day we're all learning from the same "book"

The crew should do what we have to to get our fight masters together for a weekend and get all of you on the same page. It really would be great to know I'm learning the same thing your crew is.

Anyway... HAPPY NEW YEAR!!

[MadL]

but in stage combat....where the look of a real fight is the goal....we dont wear the masks, or helms, or vest...you could virtualy fight nekid.....

hmmm, I have swam nekid, I have snow skied nekkid, I have partied nekid, I have even skydived nekid, but I Never sword fought nekid...

which one would I use t' perry with?

NEKID SWORD FIGHT!!!

Edited January 2, 2009 by MadL

[Monterey Jack]

Thanks for the references. Impressive school!!

We have a really talented fight coordinator in our crew and I always feel safe when fighting. I was actually surprised how very much like a dance class fight training is, as a musician and dancer I certainly understand the goal is never speed, the goal is always good form, speed happens in time and with practice. Our best live steel fighters are really impressive at full speed, in fact watching them is frightening though I never fear for their safety. Our regular fighters rehearse weekly, sometimes several times a week, and it really shows. In almost 2 years I have never seen anyone get hurt, and I'm proud of that.

Glad you liked the sites, we're very proud of the fighters and performers involved. My knife-fighting partner and Asst. Instructor Gypsy is a dancer so, yes it really not only feels lke a dance when training but a dance background really helps. Thats not saying the finished fight looks like a dance; its broken up as far as the timing to make it realistic. The attentio to detail really shows with any good fight team. At and event where you have several different organizations performing fights, its easy to spot the professional, seriously driven groups and those who just like to whack at one another. Fortunately with all the choreography and WMA groups popping up, the quality of many fights either on stage or even the street theatre of ren-faires has improved greatly over the last ten years. Even the historical training and contact bouting of groups like the HMCA is looking researched and focused instead of just being an all-out smack-fest.

[Monterey Jack]

if this was sport fencing...or contact swordplay...as in a competion...or sca...i would agree with ya both....

bu then we would be using masks,vests gloves and a myriad of saftey equipment....

but in stage combat....where the look of a real fight is the goal....we dont wear the masks, or helms, or vest...you could virtualy fight nekid......for we have what is known ...or at least i call it...the AURA OF SAFTEY......

it is a distance from the opponent....that YOUR sword never violates...ever....thats the target zone....once proficient....you can go thru all the strikes....with your opponents arms at his side...eyes closed....and neverNEVER hit him.....never violate the AURA OF SAFTEY...period....(less of course choreographed in for a kill scenes)

when we block/parry....the opponent meets your strike....just outside the AURA..or target zone.....thats where the swords meet...clank...etc

if a parry is dropped...or late...or your opponennt trips over his sword....and isnt there to stop your blade swinging at his head...its ok...your allready goinna stop before his....AURA or TARGET ZONE...just outside his noggin.....

this is our saftey...our ONLY TRUE SAFTEY....thats why ...before anything else...the target zones are learned and practised...before you jumble their heads with anything else...then we may proceed with the feet....style...choreographs etcetc.....

Well said; I've seen two schools of thought on targeting: within distance and offtarget, which to my mind looks like you're missing on purpose, OR...on target and out of distance. Out of distance being even a mere 6 inches. That's far enough to be safe with trained pairs of fighters and close enough for the audience to buy into the fight. The bummer is, its ruined my ability to fence competetively! LOL! I always execute a proper cut, thrust or lunge and miss my damn opponent by 6 lousy inches. Then he scores and looks at me like I'm an idiot....sigh....gotta work on that...again....

[Hawkyns]

Coming very late to the discussion, I've got a couple of points to make.

I've been training my crew and a few others for a bunch of years with the Sealed Knot sword method. 5 cuts- body inside, body outside, overhead or St. George, leg inside and leg outside. 5 defenses to match. We fight with blunts and no armour or masks. No thrusts, because the blades we use have virtually no flex, so a mistake is mutltiple times worse.

I don't teach my people to fence, I teach them to fight with swords. Martial arts style, bruises are part of the game and to be expected as with any martial art. So yes, we get hit. We also grapple and kick as part of this. Speed is at about 2/3 to 3/4 maximum. That is for both safety and so that the crowd can actually see the swords move.

We don't really bother with wasters because a hit with a waster and a hit with a blunt are nearly the same thing.

One of the first things I teach is to pull a blow. To be proficient at the style I teach, you should be able to bring the weapon at combat speed to within an inch or so of the target, then stop it so that the last inch is enough to allow the touch. This requires a fair amount of wrist and arm strength. There are 3 methods of safety. One is to wear protection, such as the SCA or LARPS wear. Second is to use what someone here referred to as the aura of safety, keeping the blades away from the person. The third, and the one I teach, is control. Pell work, target work and strength training for the arms are needed, as well as a good sense of timing and the willingness to deal with overthrown shots.

I've never been impressed with most stage work. It looks fake because it is too slow and because the blades rarely come close enough to threaten realistically. Film work is different, they generally have more time and better resources. Ren faire fight troupes are better because they do actually make contact, though they put too much reliance on armor for my taste. I don't know how well a universal fight method would work. Without the constant training and working together, regional or crew differences will develop. One crew will be fine with a few bruises, another will not. Some will fight fairly quickly others will develop a slower paced fight.

I think I've said this before, but if you want to watch an excellent edge vs point, or sword vs rapier fight, watch the final fight in the movie Rob Roy. Bill Hobbes did and amazing job with that one and it is the sort of fight we should be aspiring to.

Hawkyns

[Patrick Hand]

Any one notice that I don't "play " with swords.....

OH yeah, sure I can.....

I hadda really BAD experience with a sword fight about 20 years ago...

It was a Teenage Mutant Ninja Ninja Turtles kinda show ( I was the "SHREDDER").....

And the guy playing one of the turtles (suppose to be a "black belt" martial arts expert...) comes at me totally swinging his katana... fast and furious..... WOH... I can block,. and I had to.....(for real)

But having someone swing a "Sharp" kitana at you vs. a yarni ....(and it was a carved wood one)....

Dang... I can defend really quickly... buncha chunks taken outta the pole of the spear (real big chunks of wood.... he was hitting way to hard,,,) .... I defended fast. .....(Like I typed ... I had to... it was a sharp sword, and he only knew how to HIT with a weapon....)

I haven't "argued" my point from the beginning.... He said that a Martial Artist can "deal" with any thing that comes at them..... I say BULL SHIT.... If I wanna play a full contact fight . Then I will do so... but for stage combat... it's more like dancing... you know what your opponent is going to do....

Bad memories... I survived... but too drunk tonight to say any more.....I wanna check out other post inn the pub....

[RustyNell]

Patrick I had something similar to this happen once. I was lucky though..... because there were no weapons involved it was hand to hand. (I toured with a Hollywood CA girls boxing troupe in my early 20's). Still when a staged fight is suddenly real its not fun. People who are angry shouldn't fight, the person in charge of the fighting needs to know their fighters, and more so fighters need to know each other. I had been touring with this girl for a month but I didn't really know her well. Thankfully though she started it, I finished it by taking a dive and stopping the fight. I wasn't going to play that game. This happens. People get angry or jealous and they snap and make bad decisions. She's lucky... actually we're both lucky.. I wouldn't stoop to that level or we both could have gotten hurt, not that fists could do near the damage of a blade. Some people simply don't have the temperament, I do agree you have to know who your fighting, most of all people need to communicate.

On another note:

Someone said bruises are inevitable. I don't agree with that a bit. No one should be making any body contact, so there should be no reason to get bruised.

The technique we use is that the actual strike comes from the block, not the strike at all. The person striking casts the blow and stops it outside of contact, the actual sound and force comes from the blocker. Since a block is not designed to connect with a body but is designed to stop a blade its ultimately SAFE! This way its up to the blocker to make it look real. Of course, you have to feel confident enough that your opponent is strong with their points and that they will stop their blade outside of any physical contact. Thats why its important to practice your points around the fighter your fighting to get their body shape and size into the equation. You have to trust each other NOT to hit! Only then are you willing to get in close enough to really CONNECT your blocks to their strikes with the right force to make it convincing.

I really don't think its impossible to have a universal system. After all I can't help but re-iterate that this really is choreography its not fighting, at least it shouldn't be. In the end its nothing more than a series of moves strung together to give the illusion of a fight. That's choreography...and if dance can have a common language that communicates movement across the globe, its not impossible for this to happen in fight choreography. Its just a matter of defining OUR common language. If fighters across the country were schooled in the same language, if the movements and series of movements were given the same names, and fight schools taught them, it could happen. Hell you could be certified in it. Its a shame that I can go into a dance studio anywhere in the country, in the world for that matter and study ballet, its the same everywhere, so I can continue my practice and better my skills, but I can't do that with stage fighting. Wouldn't that be grand if we could fight anywhere!! Imagine if for whatever reason you had to move from Cali to the Carolina's, and you could pick up where you left off, join a troupe and not have to start over and learn a whole new system.?

I think many fight masters fear if we go to a universal system that we'll all look the same. I disagree. Let me assure you, just as dance choreographers develop their own style, sharing a system will never make us fight alike. People inject their personalities into their choreography just like dancers, fighters all have a style.

When I think pirate I can't separate myself from the great swashbucklers of the Hollywood era films and all the great pirate stories I've read as a child and an adult. The sword fight is an integral part of our history, both real and imagined.

Anyway... I'm dreaming I know... still, my intention of this thread was to put a bug in the ear of the crew fight masters among us. To maybe inspire them towards something like this. Its apparent to me that the growing pirate festival circuit seeks to be different than the other re-enactments ie Medieval, Ren, civil war etc., just thought this might be an area to develop to make pirate festivals really stand apart from the rest.

Edited January 6, 2009 by RustyNell

[Hawkyns]

On another note:

Someone said bruises are inevitable. I don't agree with that a bit. No one should be making any body contact, so there should be no reason to get bruised.

That's one of the stylistic differences that makes the idea of a universal system pretty much of a non starter. My crew is a hardcore crew, authenticity is stressed over Hollywood. We're all re-enactors from other periods, so this is not a stretch at all. Most of us are also active in Western Martial Arts.

We make body contact with swords, bucklers, bodies (the patella montante, or kneecap to the cods is one of my favourites) so the training is to pull the blow. I fought one of my lads through the camp a couple of years ago to the point that he wound up bent backwards over a table with my blade at this throat. And there was nobody form the public watching. We do this as much for ourselves as for the public, to know that the blades we carry are not just a show piece or a stage prop. We also live fire our muskets in target competiton, so that we prove to ourselves that we really do know what we are doing.

Yes, people can get hurt. We are just as aware that a sword fight can go wrong as we are that a musket barrel can blow or a cannon become a pipe bomb, or someone can go overboard. Re-enactment is a dangerous hobby, but the adrenaline rush that comes from a good battle is worth the risk, as long as people are well trained.

Hawkyns

[Mary Diamond]

Re-enactment is a dangerous hobby, but the adrenaline rush that comes from a good battle is worth the risk, as long as people are well trained.

This is True ~ Re-enacting CAN be Dangerous.

I Don't agree with building in additional ways to get hurt, instead of planning for a more universally attainable level of realism.

Hawkyns, sir ~ you are Extraordinary in your level of commitment and detail, and I mean No Disrespect. However, I too would like to play ~ safely. Trust is a difficult thing ~ intentions go wrong, and flesh is weak ~ what was meant to be no more than a "Martial Arts bruise" might dislocate my artificial hip.

There will always be those that have the ability to go above and beyond ~ and so they should. However, I think this idea was meant to be more inclusionary, for everyone.

[Hawkyns]

Mary I have no problem with that, and If I implied otherwise, I misspoke. We all have different levels of commitment to what we do, and different lengths to which we are prepared to go. I would not wish all to go to the lengths that we do, if the commitment is not there, then neither is the safety. I am full well aware that for many, re-enactment in general or pyracy in particular is no more than a hobby, while for others of us, it is a lifestyle. That lifestyle may be no more than attending as many faires as possible while for others it is a true attempt to recreate the lifestyle with all its dangers, discomforts, and risks.

No, my point was to illustrate that with such varying degrees of commitment and training, a truly universal set of combat conventions is virtually impossible. If we do not train together, if we do not have the same concept of the aura of safety, if we do not have a common speed, or weapon weight, then a common language of blows would not mean much. While I would truly love to be able to fight people outside my own crew, I recognise that it is not possible without at least a couple of days for us to understand the dynamics of each style.

Hawkyns

[Mary Diamond]

While I would truly love to be able to fight people outside my own crew, I recognise that it is not possible without at least a couple of days for us to understand the dynamics of each style.

Hawkyns

Agreed! And, Thank You for your input ~

I think that is all we are hoping for ~ to have a set of basics, so that there are less people stuck on the sidelines, and Miminal opportunity for Damage. We are all learning, together, and every bit of knowledge helps. If we can somehow get to a level where we are all familiar with a basic set of rules (whichever they may be), that reduces one unknown. Walk through the steps together (days before a show, if not pre-event), and determine if the person you are paired up with is at a level you are comfortable with. If not ~ walk away.

Given my location and current experience level, that is the best I can personally hope for. I consider it reasonable.

[RustyNell]

Oh I agree there is no way two people could just show up and fight. Body size, strength, speed, a lot of things play into this that don't apply to standard dance choreography.

I am not delusional where this whole concept is concerned I by no means expect that any system would allow people to show up and just start swinging.

Still a day or two of rehearsal with someone who already knew the same fights, using the same fight language and choreography, and who has repeatedly studied the same basic moves ....goes a really long way. Where a day or two of rehearsal for two people who have no concept of the other fighters system or study or moves, would be baby steps in comparison.

I'm just interested in making steps, and creating tools to bring us closer to a common goal. I don't expect to people to show up, pair up and fight. Thats would be well....stupid.

Here's my best analogy: I could send every musician on the pub music to a bunch of songs for their particular instrument and we could get together and play them somewhat decently. Still if we wanted to sound any good, we'd have to run through the songs for a few days. If everyone had done their homework it sure wouldn't take long before we sounded halfway decent. Not half as long, as it would if I walked into a room of non musicians handed them instruments they had never played and asked them to play twinkle twinkle together. The songs simple enough and they all know it but the LEARNING CURVE! sheesh.

[theM.A.dDogge]

yesyesyes....so your suggesting that a few groups study the same style(lets say tap).....while other groups perfer...lets say ballet or jazz....not that any one style is better...just some are easier for saftey concerns to appeal to the beginer or novice....let the tappers play....then

again...the difficulty will be to decide on ONE STYLE...should it be jazz...tap...ballet??.....to use your analogies....there are several(meanning i cant count that hight) different syles from hoakie to actual combat...with very good reasons to do eachone.....

being the fight master (or captain of the marines) for our group...and knowing our group and our groups intentions and goals...some of the other styles just simply wouldnt work for us.....as well as our style would not work for other groups for the same reasons....

so....tho i agree that some goups can agree upon a set standard of moves to engage each other...in a controlled environment.....i do not seein a universal standard being used to my likeing...other than severely limitting what can be done.....

for example...there are a couple of scottish battles every year....and the scotts are well known for their swords....so....they let them carry balsa wood and plastic baskit hilts....that broke before you could take the feild.....a lot of time in the historical clothing was thawarted once your seen brandishing a balsa wood sword......but that was the only way they could make it safe for several froups of re-encctors to play.....

so...i am all for dicussin this in detail with dead-eye and other groups....i know blackbeards group play very similar....and others....who would like to play with each other....but only if the intentions are the same.

[Hawkyns]

so....tho i agree that some goups can agree upon a set standard of moves to engage each other...in a controlled environment.....i do not seein a universal standard being used to my likeing...other than severely limitting what can be done.....

Definitely agree that, especially with the limitations.

Another thing that occurs as I read these posts, that should have occurred to me before. We don't choreograph. We learn the strikes and the counters, and then our fights are all free bouts. Doing the same fight over and over again completely removes any spontanaiety. After a while, you can see the combatants as they start to prepare for what they know is coming, instead of reacting to the blow thrown.

Hawkyns

[Monterey Jack]

so....tho i agree that some goups can agree upon a set standard of moves to engage each other...in a controlled environment.....i do not seein a universal standard being used to my likeing...other than severely limitting what can be done.....

Definitely agree that, especially with the limitations.

Another thing that occurs as I read these posts, that should have occurred to me before. We don't choreograph. We learn the strikes and the counters, and then our fights are all free bouts. Doing the same fight over and over again completely removes any spontanaiety. After a while, you can see the combatants as they start to prepare for what they know is coming, instead of reacting to the blow thrown.

Hawkyns

Only partially true. The fight is only as good as the actors. My teams fully choreograph and perform the same shows over and over again, each time "selling" the fights with the appearance of fulling intending to kill each other. We've scared people with how serious it seems to get in street fights at faires. My issue with learning simply the strikes and counters is that if anything goes wrong the fight looks terrible. I've seen far too many fights go badly because the fighters are NOT partners and have not trained together endlessly.

Also a p[otentially "free bout" nurtures the fighters to start doing random things that the other fighter doesn't recognize, thereby making the fight look worse than rehearsed: slow and uncertain.

A believable fight means you must know each others behavior and character inside and out, so when issues occur you can cover the problem. I am not a fan of simply learning the attacks and parries and having random memebers of a group fight one another, even if they are long-term friends.

Hawkyns, your training methods are sound and I agree with a lot of what you've said; this is one of my personal sticky points.

[Hawkyns]

[ A believable fight means you must know each others behavior and character inside and out, so when issues occur you can cover the problem. I am not a fan of simply learning the attacks and parries and having random memebers of a group fight one another, even if they are long-term friends.

Hawkyns, your training methods are sound and I agree with a lot of what you've said; this is one of my personal sticky points.

True, its a philosophical difference. My thought is that two opponents who have never met or fought would be somewhat hesitant and feel each other out. So a slower starting fight, with a few false starts, is normally what we see. I've been in fights where we have circled each other, feinted and psyched at each other for over five minutes before the blades even met. It is, as I said, dependant on what you are looking for. Since we see this more as a form of martial art, rather than a play for the public, we are more interested in the fight itself, rather than the oohs and ahhs of the crowd.

Hawkyns

[Silkie McDonough]

Again, this is to get the basics out there ...then we match skill against skill.

Even in a true battle, especially if you are a sea man not a fighter you may look less than skilled. Additionally most audience members are even less trained and see the mistakes less. Also, across a field they are just appreciating the show.

Yes, there is something to be said for doing it right and making it believable. The satisfaction in itself would be enough for me.

However, since even my crew mates are far flung I don't get the chance to create perfection. I still enjoy playing. Sometimes we don't even fight with blades yet we use the same moves. A giant spoon against a crutch works well and the guys love a chick fight! lol

I was at an event where a few of us went to a back corner of the camp and worked on some very slow choreography for a pub brawl. We enjoyed the work, had a nice scene by the end of the practice and the crowds loved watching the process.

We all have different goals. We are attempting in this thread to create a base for a few crews that play and perform together regularly. We are not trying to create the ultimate fight scene.

Edited January 6, 2009 by Silkie McDonough

[theM.A.dDogge]

[ A believable fight means you must know each others behavior and character inside and out, so when issues occur you can cover the problem. I am not a fan of simply learning the attacks and parries and having random memebers of a group fight one another, even if they are long-term friends.

Hawkyns, your training methods are sound and I agree with a lot of what you've said; this is one of my personal sticky points.

True, its a philosophical difference. My thought is that two opponents who have never met or fought would be somewhat hesitant and feel each other out. So a slower starting fight, with a few false starts, is normally what we see. I've been in fights where we have circled each other, feinted and psyched at each other for over five minutes before the blades even met. It is, as I said, dependant on what you are looking for. Since we see this more as a form of martial art, rather than a play for the public, we are more interested in the fight itself, rather than the oohs and ahhs of the crowd.

Hawkyns

thanks guys for proving my point....ya meant to do that didnt ya....we have very similar weapons...very moves...(most are actually baised in historical parries)....with DIFFERENT INTENTIONS.....therefore a very different ending

so....in summary...thoise groups with similar intentions to their fights.(orschools of thought)..could reasonably come to an accord with smilar techniques...and the end result with a reasonably safe fights.....

those with dis-similar intentions....woe be ware...someone will git hurt.

so...that being said....i would still like to hear about the varrying stles those of other groups have adopted...and why....i love intentions.

[Capt. Sterling]

[ A believable fight means you must know each others behavior and character inside and out, so when issues occur you can cover the problem. I am not a fan of simply learning the attacks and parries and having random memebers of a group fight one another, even if they are long-term friends.

Hawkyns, your training methods are sound and I agree with a lot of what you've said; this is one of my personal sticky points.

True, its a philosophical difference. My thought is that two opponents who have never met or fought would be somewhat hesitant and feel each other out. So a slower starting fight, with a few false starts, is normally what we see. I've been in fights where we have circled each other, feinted and psyched at each other for over five minutes before the blades even met.

Hawkyns

I must say, I quite agree with what Hawkyns is saying here...and Maddogge also has fights begin slowly... I fenced since college and in competition I have not seen two opponents that are not well known to one another NOT start out slowly, studying one another at first and trying to get their bearings. Once an attack is launched, yes, then the action is fast, but then again, it often slows as opponents try to outsmart one another... we had the privilege of watching a very well rehearsed group this year... very, fast from the git go, but looked just that... rehearsed...like they had known and been practicing for years, not like they just met on the battle field.

Edited January 6, 2009 by Capt. Sterling

[theM.A.dDogge]

but that again goes to the intention...of the fight.....was it to be life like?...look life like?...look like to olde masters goin at it?....a marine against a plow boy?

now what dear Hawkins here is sayin...is that his intention...is to FEEL like its real....so they all agree on a few points and parries...for their saftey...and go at each other....

others....may try and LOOK real...so they choreograph each move first...for their saftey.....

still others treet it very much like a dance....and so it looks like it...very beutiful....in fact many scottish dances derived from after sword battles...like the sword dance....

so again...its the intention of the group.

now...if ya want to talk how to make it LOOK real...or at least...realistic...kinda...i gots some ideas.....

[Capt. Sterling]

Ye'd better....

[MadL]

I am not delusional where this whole concept is concerned I by no means expect that any system would allow people to show up and just start swinging.

::Mad L stops 'n thinks about last night at th' pub, 'n last month at th' park, 'n before that at th' market...'n all them times back in high school....::

I'm sorry.....

[callenish gunner]

I must admit that an overly-drawn out choreographed fight does look too rehearsed .....but I have also been on the receiving end of a mistake during stage combat which ended up with a Schlager rapier blade going through my thigh ...THAT FRIGGIN HURTS!!!! I also have fenced in competition and the two are distinctly different!

Four years ago at PIP I had a drunken pirate draw live steel on my then 15 year old son, who was just learning to do stage combat, and being 15 thought he was invincible. The drunk's first pass was only stopped by my son's leather waistcoat, but the drunk persisted and that is where I stepped in ...for me it was real; and I disarmed and slammed the drunk with the hilt cap of my dagger on his sternum and informed him that if he wanted to persist in his asinine behavior that he would feel the business end the next pass ....needless to say he withdrew with the words of "I never saw you move!!!"

My son's reaction was "Holy Crap Dad that was so fast I just saw you step in and before I saw what you did he had no cutlass and your dagger was out and on his chest ....can you teach me to do that???" kids!!! Meanwhile, I'm feeling like the first days I saw combat in the jungles 40 years ago, heart pounding and a cold sweat running down my face like a bucket of ice water tossed on me. Yes it took a great deal of self control not to plunge my dagger through that tall red-headed California pirate but within the next few days especially once he was sober we became fast friends. One more example of why drinking and weapons can become a crap shoot for disaster!

[theM.A.dDogge]

I must admit that an overly-drawn out choreographed fight does look too rehearsed .....but I have also been on the receiving end of a mistake during stage combat which ended up with a Schlager rapier blade going through my thigh ...THAT FRIGGIN HURTS!!!! I also have fenced in competition and the two are distinctly different!

soundslike ya saw some bad choreography....see...i'm all about character and intent.....the fights that bother me are the ones where ...well everyone seems to be a master swordsman!?!?...everyone??

how about a fight where everyone is dispatched in one blow!!....or chased off...one by accident?...trip and fell...etcetc.....

now dont get me wrong...some choreography is pretty to watch...like dance....but tend to like better the ones that keep the cahracters skills in mind as well as the intention of the scene....

and stop fighting over your heads...damn i hate that....

oi callenish...i believe the hard fast rule is...once the cork is out...the weapons are put away.....