points and choreography

[Dorian Lasseter]

oi callenish...i believe the hard fast rule is...once the cork is out...the weapons are put away.....

AMEN!!!

Alcohol = no playing with pointies, sharpies, boomsticks, etc!!!!

Done all the above, comp fencing, choreography, and freeform... And, way in the past, some drunken stupidity. Thankfully no one was injured...

At one time I was quite a good fencer. I still would be if I knock off the rust, heh...

I to dislike the fights where everyone is a master swordsman. I once did a choreographed fight where my opponent was a sneaky s.o.b. and pulled a dagger from his back, as he was loosing... worked well...

My style I think at this point would be; Good with a sword, but has some tricks to make up for the lack of finesse...

[MadL]

One more example of why drinking and weapons can become a crap shoot for disaster!

Aye, also one more good reason why everyone should be armed (and o'course properly trained t' handle their weapon as well).

I never have understood those who get drunk that way, and I have known many (grew up in the carnival business - LOTS of 'stupid' drunks there). Had one bout me own age once my father had hired, between fairs he would live with us, boy could not drink more then two beers before he began acting like a complete arse hole and want'n t' fight everyone around him, I usually just laughed he'm off...til th' day me folks left us alone for a weekend, he got hold o' a six pack and in no time, for reason I still do not know, he took t' stand'n out back and throw'n stuff at th' house...???..I tried t' get he'm t' go lie down, told he'm t' go sleep it off (he lived in our garage) but he just got more insane, then it happened, he pulled out a bowie knife and came at me - that was it. When ye find a fool with a weapon there can be no more game play, every move is for 'real' at that point. I won't even go into me ex-brother in-law incident, that involved a hand gun be'n point'd at me head...and yes, it was loaded, I watched he'm load th' rounds!

No, drink'n and weapons do NOT mix....actually, some people and weapons don't mix - drink'n or not

But I just do not understand those who get 'stupid' drunk...but then I have never really been a "drinker", I mean I drink, but I don't 'get drunk', yer supposed Stop before ye reach that point...me, I'm more th' "I get drunk, I fall down" type, but I prefer t' Stop before reach'n such a condition - I learned in high school that hangovers hurt! But really, I have been at parties (ones where I did not intend on driving home, and NO weapons where around) when suddenly someone starts acting up - I have always maintained a state of mind where at that moments notice I straighten up and can take charge - Responsibly (I am not talking 'drunk on drunk'). I just do not understand the 'stupid' stage that some people get themselves into....are they 'really' stupid, does alcohol 'really' take them over like that? how? why? don't they know their limit? if not? why? it all just seems so illogical to me....and as I said, I have known, and dealt with many, but I still do not understand them?

Anyway, sorry t' interrupt - the topic was: Choreography

:angry:

[Zephaniah W Nash]

I tend to come in late and reply to a point from farther back, but that's what life in the West will do to you. Okay, that sounded good, anyway... *L*

Anyway...

True, its a philosophical difference. My thought is that two opponents who have never met or fought would be somewhat hesitant and feel each other out. So a slower starting fight, with a few false starts, is normally what we see.

I agree with this in principle, but it's something I don't often get to play out in reality. I generally run into time constraints, where you have to jump right into the "good stuff," as it were.

Even then, I only think that the idea of feeling out one's opponent would be context-specific. In a duel, sure, you would have time to make a few testing attacks, just to see what would happen. In a boarding action, I would think hesitation would be fatal. Still, agreeing with the overall point, just pointing out where it might not be appropriate or workable.

[RustyNell]

People have to be decent actors for this to work of course. I understand that a lot of rehearsal can make a fight so fluid it doesn't look real. Still it seems to me a lot of you are agreeing that the fights should be more like real fights - are you trying to say that you choose to really fight to go at each other without any choreography. I'm sorry but to me that seems dangerous and foolish. No set moves and swinging steel?? I understand your theory that too much rehearsal looks rehearsed. Just my opinion but I think its up to the actor to make a fight look authentic.

I agree with MD that fights need to be character driven or they will definitely look like a system. But thats the actors job when approaching the choreography, its to know how their character would move and what their character might engage and what might make them hesitant or even run.

For example I mean Nell would never fight like Scarlett Jai, Nell would fight though, I mean I run a pub in a rough part of town. I'd be more likely to throw something at ya then pull a blade. Still I might pull out a dagger and surprise ya. and even Nigel and Dead-eye have totally different styles they're body types are different and it shows when they move.

Anyway I agree that sometimes too much confidence in movement thats rehearsed looks unrealistic. I know what your talking about, but, a little bit of speed here and though really impresses an audience. They are thrilled by it. I've heard them explode in applause. Ok so the flash may not always be authentic looking. But hey sometimes we all love a good Jed Lee movie.

Edited January 8, 2009 by RustyNell

[Hawkyns]

Yes, Nell. We fight unchoreographed, unarmoured, and we expect the blades to contact us. With a certain number of strikes and their counters, and with them getting thrown at you many times, you learn how to block. It's the same sort of training you would get at a karate dojo.

Doing it this way there is no need to act. The strikes are real, the reaction time is real and it looks compltely natural. The only "fake" part is that the blades are blunted and that we are only operating at 2/3 - 3/4 speed.

Let me also address the issue of different levels of swordsman. Pirates or privateers were professionals. They would consider their weapons and the knowledge of them the tools of their trade. So I can see few instances where you would actually have a complete novice against a master.

Hawkyns

[Jib]

One point no one has touched on is that stage combat is for entertainment. I've done a few stage combat fights at MRF and my goal was always to create something visually fun for the audience. Here is a link of a street fight I did against an Italian Actor. We got together at least once a month for 3 months before the show opened.

http://picasaweb.google.com/photojordan/JibSFight#

[RustyNell]

Hawkyns sorry to say this, but i'd be concerned about bringing your group to one of my events. Personally... real fighting creates a liability. I'd worry if your philosophy got out, or if people knew the fighting was real.. some drunk idiot would want to join in, because hey if its a fight its a fight who needs training. I appreciate groups who make an announcement that this is theater, and not real fighting and the fighters are professional actors do not try this without the proper training it can still be very dangerous. No disrespect, but people fighting and getting hurt makes it difficult for everyone. Its getting to where you have to show proof not only of personal medical insurance but that your group has insurance against any potential crowd injury. Why you'd want to risk injuring your mates i'll never understand.

And thanks Jib... I agree this is for entertainment. ! great photos of that fight JIB! What an awesome theater too

[Hawkyns]

Nah, I'm not coming across right, I guess. Define 'real'. We are not fighting to prove anything other than that we know how to use our weapons. There is no animosity and it does not matter who wins. Think of us as more like a karate or kendo school doing a demo. There is a growing movement and increase in what is now being called Western Martial Arts.

We are a subgroup of that.

As far as the drunk spectators, I've seen that often enough at ren faire, so its not something that would be unique to us, though we've never actually had that problem. I never said we were for everyone, but we do offer another dimension to pirate combat.

Hawkyns

[MadL]

Hawkyns & RustyNell; here be th' two worlds what first me own brow about th' idea of two people unfamiliar with the other then via e-mail on the Internet ways and suddenly meeting for the first and saying "Hey, lets give this crowed show" (unrehearsed other then each 'THINK' the other is of the same schooling).

Aye, I meself come from Hawkyns' school, however I know t' always first 'Test' a new acquaintance before actually engaging with them; from where I come from (especially today, being muchly out o' shape as well as practice) I want t' know if I need t' make sure He/She take is easy on me, or 10 year ago, make sure I do not overwhelm them take'n for granted what I 'think' they know.

However, there are many out there that are no so conscious of their opponent's skills and just 'assume' that if they are willing to engage then both must be equal...and often not finding out th' contrary until 'after the fact' (rather after th' "aftermath").

Hawkyns I am sure knows his style and school requires two well fit and prepared individuals and extra care must be taken in an open theater t' guard against them drunks (which be everywhere, not just ren and pirate faire), where RustyNell is side of 'show' without bite and also still need guard against them wild hounds. Heck, ever seen a drunkard jump up on stage want'n t' dance with th' strippers??? (THAT was NOT ME! I wasn't even there and I can Prove It!!)

(AWK! I was going to post me link t' th' fight Tiger Lee and Captain Sin did for us at CHOC but me corpirte security blocked me - it be on me MySpace)

Tiger and Sin performed a quaint little battle right amidst th' crowd, even if we were all pirate with only a couple 'civies' they pulled it off in a cute and fun manor - an entertainment show it was.

However what Hawkyns refers to would still be 'entertainment, but it would be of "demonstration" quality.

ie:

Two schools, two type o' people:

Entertainment Show

Demonstration Entertainment

Both valid 'frames of mind', two completely different school sets and type of people - however they would combine like oil and water.

[Silkie McDonough]

It has been pointed out on this forum but not in this thread that Hawkyns is not interested in entertainment or demonstration. He does it purely for the love of the history and the satisfaction that it is done right. I find that admirable.

Nell, who started this thread is interested in an attempt that those of us who wish to "play together" may someday be able to do so.

No one is right or wrong.

Now, can we continue to be constructive in this endeavor and see if those of us who do want to entertain & educate may be able to do so together?

[RustyNell]

Thanks Silkie.

Sorry guys didn't mean to stir things up. I was just getting frustrated over all the "CAN'T BE DONE".

I'm sorry if my feathers got ruffled, but I was insulted by an implication that those who don't take a martial arts approach to this aren't as authentic, nor as serious about what they are doing. It takes as much discipline to pull a strike as it does to land one.

The intent of this thread I started was to find a common system for those taking the theatrical approach to this not the martial arts types. Guess I wasn't specific enough in my initial post.

[theM.A.dDogge]

Yes, Nell. We fight unchoreographed, unarmoured, and we expect the blades to contact us. With a certain number of strikes and their counters, and with them getting thrown at you many times, you learn how to block. It's the same sort of training you would get at a karate dojo.

Doing it this way there is no need to act. The strikes are real, the reaction time is real and it looks compltely natural. The only "fake" part is that the blades are blunted and that we are only operating at 2/3 - 3/4 speed.

Let me also address the issue of different levels of swordsman. Pirates or privateers were professionals. They would consider their weapons and the knowledge of them the tools of their trade. So I can see few instances where you would actually have a complete novice against a master.

Hawkyns

actually i can see quite a few times where a master would fight a novice.....prettu much every time!!!!!...why would ya want to fight someone bvetter than you if it was to the death???or at least to the maim????.....pirates attackin atown...local miltia??.....novices......royal navy??....i would attack the town again...

[Hawkyns]

By chance, this just showed up on my Live Journal account.

The 2009 Midwinter Stage Combat Seminars

Open Sessions

The following seminars are open to all participants:

Barehanded Brawling – Your body is a weapon; use it! This session will cover classic contact, non-contact, and shared moves, as well as more advanced grappling and percussive techniques. The class will culminate in the creation and performance of an unarmed mass brawl involving all participants.

Broadsword Boot Camp – Our most popular class is back! This highly physical session is designed to reinforce the fundamentals of fighting with the broadsword and to introduce advanced techniques. Instruction in footwork, primary parries, and primary attacks, leading into more complex modes of offense and defense.

Intensive Rapier – A fast-paced course in the movement patterns and bladework of the Renaissance’s signature weapon. Session will include linear and circular styles, deceptions and prises de fer; offhand weapons may be introduced, at the instructors’ discretion. Heavy emphasis will be placed on form, scrupulous accuracy and speed of execution… be ready for a workout!

Medieval Heavy Metal – The sword is only the beginning in this whirlwind tour of the knightly arts. Students will be exposed to the offensive and defensive capabilities of variety of weapons, including axe, shield, spear, hammer, halberd, and flail, and will have the opportunity to wield them in a variety of combinations. Armor may be introduced, at the instructors’ discretion.

“Rob & Cliff’s Dirty Tricks” – Our famous grab-bag session is now open to your suggestions! Students signing up for this course are encouraged to include their own stage combat ideas and requests as part of their application. We’ll review them in the weeks prior to the class, and (while we already have a number of surprises of our own in mind) some of them just may be chosen as part of the curriculum. Past sessions have included found weapons, martial arts for the stage, mismatches, and the infamous “Magic Marker Circle of Death”… will your idea be next?

Master Classes

The following seminars are open to experienced students only, as determined by the instructors:

Blindfighting – Students will test their mental and physical acuity as we bring the legend of the “Blind Swordsman” to life. Beginning with rapier-based sightless training exercises to heighten movement sensitivity and partner awareness, the session will finish with each student taking the role of a blind fighter facing multiple opponents.

Close Quarters Combat – This technique-intensive session will address the problem every fighter must face sooner or later: how to safely and convincingly create and perform a staged fight in a space that’s much smaller than you’d like! Students will be given a variety of weapons and spatial & personnel restrictions to deal with, and will work together with the instructors in creating effective sequences within them. A must for anyone who’s ever had to swashbuckle under a chandelier, or fight in a phone booth…

The Place: The VDA studio in Somerville, MA. Directions are available from the VDA website: simply go to http://www.vdaproductions.com/contact-off.html and click on “Get Directions”.

The Dates: Sessions will run during the first three weekends of February, i.e. the 7th, 8th, 14th, 15th, 21st and 22nd.

The Cost: We always strive to keep the price as low as possible; given the current lean times, we have frozen the price at last year’s rate. The cost per session is $35; doing both sessions on a given day nets you a $10 discount ($60 for the day). We can take cash or checks, and payment is on the day, at the start of class.

Signing Up: Please note that you cannot sign up by replying here! E-mail Cliff at coscaram@yahoo.com and list what sessions you want to attend. If you’re signing up for one or both Master Classes, be sure to detail your previous experience! No advance payment is necessary.

Our class sizes have to be limited due to space restrictions, so first come, first served. By the same token, if you sign up, show up (if you must cancel, let us know in advance so we can give your spot to someone else)!

Gloves are strongly recommended for all classes. Wear comfortable clothing that allows free movement, and that you don’t mind sweating in. For classes where armor may be introduced, we recommend bringing a spare sweatshirt for padding purposes. Students who have their own stage-combat equipment are encouraged to bring it; if you will be doing so, please tell us in your sign-up letter. Equipment will be provided for students who don't have their own.

Feel free to contact either Cliff or Robert with questions. Hope to see you there!

Hawkyns

[MadL]

I not at all think it "can not" be done, I just think that 'however it is done' people must still be aware when encountering people, rather lets say "strangers" for the first time at faire they must make sure they are reading from the same page of the same book.

So, putting all the safety issues aside for a moment (but I will only put them aside 'for a moment', after all we are talking about working with weapons, be they stage props or not). To make it so two groups from across th' globe can meet for the first time and engage in a public viewed choreographed sword battle there would have t' be Agreed upon Rules.

1) A standardized set of choreographed 'sets'

2) A standardized set of Names for each attack and each perry

3) A standardized set of Queues used t' telegraph t' yer partner that ye be about t' switch from one set t' another, or that ye be about t' toss in a move not scripted int' th' particular 'set' running.

Sounds simple enough, just 1, 2, 3

And it would greatly help someone like me get going as I have no one local t' play with on weekends

::pay no attention t' th' rubber blowup Elizabeth Swann beneath me bed::

Now th' hard part; who gonna step forward 'n begin t' set these standards?

Once these standards are set, choreographs worked out 'n documented, then I would still highly suggest returning t' th' table 'n discuss th' standardization o' Safety (how t' identify each other Before engagement; no 'spontaneous' engagements...ie: first meet 'n greet out of public view t' 'feel each other out' before stepping back into public view 'n proceeding with th' play - after all, even in movies and theater there are HOURS of practice before th' actor(s) go in front of the camera and th' director yells "ROLL 'EM!", even with seasoned actors who have already done hundreds of hours of film fights, even for the same series or previous episodes. Never did Sparrow and Turner just walk ont' th' set one day, step in front o' th' camera and start swinging th' next shoot say'n "Ah heck, this scene is just like the one we did in POTC1, lets go for it")

[MadL]

Now, can we continue to be constructive in this endeavor and see if those of us who do want to entertain & educate may be able to do so together?

ye mean this Naught be Pirate Politics??

[Silkie McDonough]

Pyrate politics ...I have the rhum, I have the tables, I have the serving wenches ...leave your weapons at the door and stay on your side of the table. If your fist makes contact with another's face my bed warmer makes contact with the back of your head. Argue all you want ...in some other thread.

I keep the peace when I am interested in what can be accomplished MadL.

Forgot the and the and the there.

Edited January 9, 2009 by Silkie McDonough

[Hawkyns]

Nell, I wasn't trying to ruffle feathers, sorry if that happened. I was just pointing out that there are a lot of ways to play this game and a lot of different views on what we need. I'm not saying authentic is the only way to go, just that some of us would be upset if the game was rigged so that only the choreographed stuff became 'offical'.

I've been fighting with swords for 30 years and teaching for 20, in a bunch of different groups. My experience is that as soon as one group sets up 'rules' and promotes them widely, they have way too much of a tendency to become the defacto standard. Once you get to that point, the event organisers, both within and without, see that defacto standard as the only way to play and other methods get ignored as not good enough or banned as 'unsafe'. And far too often it is the case that the defacto standard becomes the lower level of combat so as tobe 'inclusive', and those who want to take the game further and are willing to take the risks of a few bruises are considerd crazy and not allowed to play.

That is what I'm fighting against. I don't want to see the choreographed, 'safer' method of sword play become the only game in town and my crew and those others who play harder get cut out of the pirate festivals. I've been the victim of such so called satey issues before, and I don't want it to happen again.

Hawkyns

[theM.A.dDogge]

for the most part i agree wit ya Hawkins...(happy belated birthday...ya did just have a birthday right??).....and i by no means am suggesting a single standard.....for every group.....i still think that should be up to the host group of an event...because they will be ultimatley responsible for the event.....but that being said....

it is rather nice when two seperate groups can meet up and have a Brawl...we have done this in the wildwest events for years...because various groups have played together for years....

but we have yet to meet up with another group in the PYRATE realm....that was compatible enough...to engage...and are usually forced to "pair up" witin our own group to showcase fights....which our group has no problem doing because we each play several characters and can fit with any senario.....

so...i think this forum should be....what types are out there???....and how do you teach your style....??

so other groups/indiividuals can pick a style or group that best fits their intentions.....

[LadyBarbossa]

now Cheecky is learnin a braodsword technique...

WOO HOO!!!

Oh, ye meantioned she's doin' this with a spoon? :::Evil grinz; manical laughter, folding of hands:::: Oh, that spoon won't have a bleedin' chance against m' saber.

But... if we wanna fight fair... I'll bring m' big spoon, too. Or th' rollin' pin.

~Lady B

[Capt. Sterling]

now Cheecky is learnin a braodsword technique...

WOO HOO!!!

Oh, ye meantioned she's doin' this with a spoon? :::Evil grinz; manical laughter, folding of hands:::: Oh, that spoon won't have a bleedin' chance against m' saber.

But... if we wanna fight fair... I'll bring m' big spoon, too. Or th' rollin' pin.

~Lady B

Um... have ye seen her spoon? or for that matter, Mary's new ladle...

[Cheeky Actress]

Oh..LadyB, this Ladle is muck'n big and can easily brain somewhat if you are not careful.

[RustyNell]

for the most part i agree wit ya Hawkins...(happy belated birthday...ya did just have a birthday right??).....and i by no means am suggesting a single standard.....for every group.....i still think that should be up to the host group of an event...because they will be ultimatley responsible for the event.....but that being said....

it is rather nice when two seperate groups can meet up and have a Brawl...we have done this in the wildwest events for years...because various groups have played together for years....

but we have yet to meet up with another group in the PYRATE realm....that was compatible enough...to engage...and are usually forced to "pair up" witin our own group to showcase fights....which our group has no problem doing because we each play several characters and can fit with any senario.....

so...i think this forum should be....what types are out there???....and how do you teach your style....??

so other groups/indiividuals can pick a style or group that best fits their intentions.....

Dogge,

Maybe ....we should divide this or start two separate threads, one thats sword fighting schools that teach the real thing like Hawkyns is discussing, and one for staged choreographed dramatic fights.

If thats the way you wanna take this particular tread we'll leave this a discussion about all the different techniques and schools there are out there ...I'm fine with that. I really would still like to see a thread where we could get a few of the theatrical groups who want to work together on the same page. If anyone is interested in working towards that.

Hawkyns,

I would never presume to exclude anyone from performing their art or skill. I understand there are many schools of thought where this is concerned. in my opinion all of the arts, martial or theatrical are only as good as the artists. You are obviously serious about your art, and I respect that. I hope you can respect my goal of wanting to allow groups to work together towards the best performance they can achieve.

[Jib]

One other thing that I feel I must add is that Stage Combat entertainers can learn a lot from historical Western Martial Arts perfomers. While the reverse might not always be true.

I consider myself an entertainer. My goal is to appear to be trying to kill someone who I very much like with a sharp pointy nasty blade. We do things slightly slower so the audince can see the blows land and attempt to go 'over the top' with the actions and expressions to make it interesting. Safety is always a consideration and concern. One slip and someone could loose an eye!

Western Martial Arts performers often wear some form of protection and use blunted weapons (I've seen rabbit blunts on rapier tips). They want to attempt to re-apply old techniques and see if they work in a melee. The goal is to score a hit that would be considered fatal had not the performers pulled shots and taken protective measures. An entertainer who attempts this can learn a few tricks to his or her fight and keep it in a more historical context.

As a side note: Nice to see so many interested in stage combat! While I do it for the audience I also do it for me because it is so much fun!

[MadL]

One other thing that I feel I must add is that Stage Combat entertainers can learn a lot from historical Western Martial Arts perfomers. While the reverse might not always be true.

Not true at all!

Meself, I believe there is room for both, but both are completely separate. A more true statement would be:

Western Martial Arts performers can learn from Stage Combat entertainers but Western Martial Arts performing may not (and so clearly is not) for everyone

I say this for even in th' dojo martial artists know that ANY form of dance (ie choreographed sets) is a fantastic extra curricular activity - to you have any idea how many pro football players take dance classes? And they don't do it so they can go to fancy balls with their multi-million dollar paychecks, they do so to Improve their ability t' Pound each other on the field o' combat!

But Hawkyns, I don't think ye should have t' worry about being 'excluded' or that the Stage Combat entertainers would become th' status quo - if ye think about it, for most faire they already are, reason being is that the more conservative faire organizer would frown on full contact battle, unless you fully convince him/her that the group performing is FULLY Qualified...I know here in the west, the first time someone swings a sword (speaking blunt edge of course) and someone gets whacked t' th' point of injury (speaking of a "accident") that demonstration would get shut down for the duration of the festival and the city itself would give the organizers a big problem when they try to get the permits for the following year. Imagine a full on contact battle at North Cal Festival where someone gets hauled off injured due to a 'oops'....that would be the end of swords even being allowed on the grounds if not even the end of North Cal Festival - WITH THE EXCEPTION where the battle is Pre-Staged, Roped Off, and performed ONLY by a pre-approved group; then an 'accident' can be accounted for, but not if "two groups just happen to meet and start going for a good time and then....oops".

Silkie...lower that bedpan, I be on th' side o' "both" now, after all......pirate

[Hawkyns]

I tend to discouunt faire as a venue. For one thing, it predates GAoP so unless you aredoing Drake's period, it's really out of place. Second, faire requires weapons to be peace tied at all times, so unless you are part of cast, there is no opportunity to swing a blade at all. I'm thinking more of the specific pirate festivals, where all groups get time on the field, or historic timelines, where the same sort of thing applies. I would never consider just drawing on another group of wandering pirates or soldiers in a public area. The battle, fight, duel or whatever would need to be scheduled and monitored by marshals no matter what, in a secured area.

No, my concern is as I have said, that we don't make the standard low so that "everyone" can play, and eliminate the hard core people. That can happen, either by sites getiing the idea that that is the standard, or by other groups within ourselves deciding that we are too 'rough' for them and not inviting the hard core or refusing them time on the field. I've seen it too many times. Even Nell said she would be uncomfortable with a group such as ours at an event she was involved in.

Hawkyns