points and choreography

[RustyNell]

A curiosity of mine....Many of us in the "Pirate community" are carrying some wonderful swords (love my Baltimore Steel) and many of the crews, including ours are training in stage combat.

My thought was this......Because the only steps we know are the one's we choreograph and rehearse we are forced to fight within our own crews in order to fight safely. If we were all using the same "dance steps" so to speak we could formatively write out combinations that we could use from crew to crew.

Our fight master has devised a system and a series of names for the moves we use. However, as a former dancer I was curious what kind of systems other crews are using and how much they differ from ours? I imagine there has to be a standard system of steps recognized throughout the professional theater. (ie what's the fight equivalent of the pas de bourree?? left slash, stab right, duck....lol) I'd just like to know if there is already an existing system we could all share and use. Is there maybe a book I'm not aware of? A standard stage combat system that makes sense, would go such a long way towards letting us safely fight one another in a relatively short amount of time.

What say you?? dansez un mortel pas de deux ??

Edited December 28, 2008 by RustyNell

[oderlesseye]

The Scurvy Dogs sword fighting group..a sub Group of Stranglehold uses the basic eight moves and combination thereof.

We have developed a few 'Theatrical moves' as well..Each combination of moves is called out to the other in code through the use of pirate curses so the opponent can anticipate what is coming next.. For saftey reasons we opted out of using live steal and use an aluminum cutlass from Noble Armory. New comers are handed a wooden 'King Author' sword till they buy their own sword.. We are working on putting on our very first skit this Sept..

Here is a video of our main routine...

Eye am not aware of an existing system we could all share and use. If there was ..i would still be more inclined to sword fight with whom I practice with...

Edited December 28, 2008 by oderlesseye

[RustyNell]

I think its smart that you gave the names of your moves pirate swears, its a great way to leave room for improvisation in a fight.

Great video.

I came across a stage combat book on the internet once, but now I can't find the bookmark and I can't seem to find the book anywhere in web searches. I could have sworn it was something that the Rennie crowd had developed. It may have come from a London stage fighting school I don't remember. I will have to keep looking.

Thanks for sharing your video we too use wood until our technique has developed to use steel safely. And we never fight someone we haven't rehearsed with. Still my thought was the same way we all know the same pub songs and can jump in and sing together....if your group where doing some of the same fights every other group did, everyone could conceivably fight after a run through or two. Of course each fight captain has to know their fighters well and safety over speed would always be important, much like our approach to cannon. and drilling positions, we fire together but every new cannon crew has to run drills before going "live"

Anyway would love to see a day when we could all fight together .... (weird thing to say when you look at it out of context)

Edited December 28, 2008 by RustyNell

[LadyBarbossa]

MD d'Dogge and some of those in the Archangel were kind enough to teach me a few things.

This year I fell in with the Brotherhood of Steel which has "houses" out of Iowa and also out of the Kansas City (Kanasas and Missouri) area. Now, these guys are LIVE STEEL. So, we learn (carefully and slowly) all the moves. M' own sword is incredibly massive and heavy like a claymore or heavy broadsword, but it's not the type to use for rapier...LOL, as we found out. Luckily, I'm the only one who hasn't been smacked and blood drawn... and no one has long term issues or scars either. :) But, it's been challenging and entertaining.

We have the choice of going at it live and unrehersed or to choreograph with a story to it. One gal who is learning rapier, both single and florentine style, she is the Lady's Champion ... we've come up with the idea of her as the Lady's Champion fighting to save and rescue her Lady from myself and the pirates. Both of us being ladies, both of us learning single rapier and florentine with all sorts of weaponry, and usual swordfighting, etc... we figured it would be fun! Lots we still need to work on though as we do hope to do this at a couple events in 2009 IF we can finish the techniques and choreographing.

All in all, I try to keep myself open to anyone who wishes to swordfight, but hope to choreograph or remain safe during this battle of metal.

~Lady B

[Monterey Jack]

Really good yto see folks actually training safely these days. back when I stated stage combat work abiout 18 yrs ago most of the re-enactor fights were just downright scary and folks were getting hurt all over the place. The HMCA system for stage work is the same as Art of Combat's system. All historically based and on target, just a tad out of distance and walked thru very slowly for a the first feww weeks and then built up to speed. You can find out more on our sites:

www.Historical MaritimeCombat.com

www.Artofcombat.org

M-jack

[RustyNell]

Thanks for the references. Impressive school!!

We have a really talented fight coordinator in our crew and I always feel safe when fighting. I was actually surprised how very much like a dance class fight training is, as a musician and dancer I certainly understand the goal is never speed, the goal is always good form, speed happens in time and with practice. Our best live steel fighters are really impressive at full speed, in fact watching them is frightening though I never fear for their safety. Our regular fighters rehearse weekly, sometimes several times a week, and it really shows. In almost 2 years I have never seen anyone get hurt, and I'm proud of that.

[theM.A.dDogge]

well Nell, the Archangels and I have been pondering this for awhile now....how to play with others....

i train the Archangels in a basic 8 point series.....as our practice series....where they concentrate on strikes and blocks.....whith the emphises on positioning....every block every strike ends up same place....then we work on the acting side of it.....style...positioning...choreographed sequences...etc...

as far as our "cues" go.....there is always a "cue"...with the sword positioning...that indicates to your opponent/partner....where the srike will be comming from.....and a subsequent cue for the blocks.....that way....in fight...if one or other forget their position in sequence...or must be changed/improved differently foir saftey...somethings in the way etc....then the cue from either the attacker or the defemdant may dictate the action.

for example....

if i am comming at you with my sword pointed down....i will be striking for a head....off to the side....a shoulder strike....or up over my head...is a leg strike

and conversaly....if i am holding my sword at waist level...i am cueing for a head block....shoulder height...a shoulder block...or held high over my shoulder....a leg block...etcetcetc.....that way...with the roar of the crowds....music....or any other distractions like an improved change in choerography due to a saftey hazard(rocks,slopes,holes,edge,fence,audiece member,live animals)....i can visually see the next attack/block...

so...because we are spread out(many states)...we all practice the "baisic eight"..(blocks and strikes)..all the same.....then add "flourishes", "passes", "holds" and "kills"....when we get together for an actual choergraphed fight.

i talked to your group last year...and a bit with Deadeye this past year....our groups style isn'y far from each others...just in a different sequence for our practice sets.

what also must be taken into consideration....what type of weapons are used...makers etc.....now personally i love my starfires and have been using them for nearly 20 years....(have gotten new ones)...in fact Zach from satrfire has taken some sugestions from our group for more period swords(thanks Rats).....but the group...and I...have a myriad of different makers of swords...so one hard fast rule is.....use the same maker of sword vs same maker sword....for example....starfire vs starfire....chen vs chen.....etcetc......because my starfire will chopp the hell out of the chens.....due to different carbon content....but a chen vs chen lasts all day.....

so...if your buyin a sword to fight with...buy 2....or only fight with someone who has the same maker....your blades will last longer.

but at the moment....because most of us arrive late the first night....there leaves very little time to rehearse with another group....lest you live close by....now Hurricane group has offered for me to come down in the off season and teach them our moves....that way we could play together next we meet....but that has yet to happen....

so right now....for close quarter combat....its the old standby....our group splits up....some go on each side....and only fight your group.....

[Diosa De Cancion]

Hmm... maybe we could combine the effort.... I know we have extra beds for at least 8-10 extra folks between a couple of our homes and lots of floor space not to mention a couple acres of camping room... Maybe we could set up a time when the BIBs can come up here and we can bring Dogge down and all learn together..

How long do you need Dogge? Is a long weekend good enough if you're dealing with upwards of 30 people(we have 12-15 that would want to learn not to mention the BIB crewe)?

[theM.A.dDogge]

now my world is a bit on hold at the moment...new baby comin in april...so a lot hinges on how "mamma"s doin......but i would say....i'm in....if an actual date can be worked out.

so....i can definatly say....maybe...

[Capt. Sterling]

Video....

[Diosa De Cancion]

Hmm...so either we do this relatively soon(next month or two)... or wait a while(say late summer early fall).... Nell... Talk to the BIB's and get back to me :)

As we get a body count we can sort out accommodations in our 'adopt a pirate or three or four..." program :)

If we're all good students there are also some great museums around this way (The other Mel Fisher's Museum, McClarty Museums, etc with lots of PC goodies to look at)

Hmmm... we could do 'Pirate School'!!

[theM.A.dDogge]

Video....

actually got one in the works....well ....workin on gittin one in the works.....i got a neighbor who is really interested in learning....may video me teachin him...and pass that 'round...more as a baisic training video.

but a hands on approach is vastly more important for fine tuneing..and beatting the bad habits outtaya...

[Capt. Sterling]

but a hands on approach is vastly more important for fine tuneing..and beatting the bad habits outtaya...

agreed... but at least folks would have some idea of the basics before you got there to beat the bad habits out of them...

[Diosa De Cancion]

good point... if nothing else, you could set up a video camera yourself and do the 'basics' and send those this way and we can start those till you get here to 'beat the bad habits out of us' as you say.....

Hell....We've got a household of computer geeks down here... I bet we could set up an interactive video site where you can yell at us as we practice..... I am sure one of our guys would even be happy to rig up a shock mechanism so you can jolt us when we do things wrong. My only problem is that you may enjoy that too much on some of us and not just use it for training purposes.

Before you get too excited about that idea... I have been tazed in the past, it was not entertaining and I am not fun to use shock therapy on....

Edited December 29, 2008 by Goddess in the Bodice

[RustyNell]

I really love the idea of physical signals for blocks. That combined with giving verbal cues for combinations of moves could easily make it appear as though there are no cues. Dead-eye has chorographed some great combinations we use, some with as many as 10 different strikes slashes, blocks, steps, ducks etc etc.. and those strung together become really long complex looking fights. I love the idea of giving them names that could be called out loud and not be explosed. It would certainly be easier on my memory to have difinitive signals I can call on should I have memory issues with long strings of choreography.

Video of your method would be the greatest!!

[theM.A.dDogge]

good point... if nothing else, you could set up a video camera yourself and do the 'basics' and send those this way and we can start those till you get here to 'beat the bad habits out of us' as you say.....

Hell....We've got a household of computer geeks down here... I bet we could set up an interactive video site where you can yell at us as we practice..... I am sure one of our guys would even be happy to rig up a shock mechanism so you can jolt us when we do things wrong. My only problem is that you may enjoy that too much on some of us and not just use it for training purposes.

Before you get too excited about that idea... I have been tazed in the past, it was not entertaining and I am not fun to use shock therapy on....

you know...thats not a bad idea....kinda long distance trainin.....you should be able to git the jist of what im showin ya....as well as me able to critique and adjust the movements as well as ask/answer questions real time....

tho i have never been tazes...3 of us did have a "cattle prod" fight in the middle of a feed store before....you should have seen the cashier as i tried to hide behind her when it turned 2 against 1.....and yes....the police did show up...not from the store personel...they were to busy layin on the floor laughin ther arses off....but a concerned passerby...saw thru the window...standing over a buddy...repeatedly gittin em with a cattle prod.....

yeah...it all started when one of us asked the others...with a cattle prod in hand....i wonder if this would hurt???

it does.

[Diosa De Cancion]

you know...thats not a bad idea....kinda long distance trainin.....you should be able to git the jist of what im showin ya....as well as me able to critique and adjust the movements as well as ask/answer questions real time....

tho i have never been tazes...3 of us did have a "cattle prod" fight in the middle of a feed store before....you should have seen the cashier as i tried to hide behind her when it turned 2 against 1.....and yes....the police did show up...not from the store personel...they were to busy layin on the floor laughin ther arses off....but a concerned passerby...saw thru the window...standing over a buddy...repeatedly gittin em with a cattle prod.....

yeah...it all started when one of us asked the others...with a cattle prod in hand....i wonder if this would hurt???

it does.

Wow... thanks for letting me know... I will now avoid any instincts to wonder 'does that hurt' the next time I see a cattle prod. Your feed store folks are different than ours. The cashier at feed store i used to go to would have just ramped the amps up and shocked the hell out of all of us if we tried that... but then again he was also missing a couple fingers and walked with a limp. I never asked....but the other guy who I know that looked the same lost his finger to a gator... I figure it was a similar story

Well, with the video cameras we have attached to the macs in this house, we could actually have 4 set up so you could watch people from all angles if you really wanted to Yep....geeky overachievers here.... do you have appropriate video stuff and all to keep up

[Capt. Sterling]

give him a couple of days

[MadL]

I have naught had th' honor t' practice any "stage" combat as I have found no one else in my own area interested; however, I would like t' inject a word o' CAUTION.

The Caution would be when stepping up t' combat (stage or otherwise) with one ye be unfamiliar with, one ye have naught actually 'practiced' with before. Mean'n; ye go t' a faire, meet someone 'n say "Wow, might that be a nice sword or ye just glad t' see me?!" then th' two o' ye decide t' show off fer th' common folk feel'n 'heck, we all practice th' same moves now'.....Naught really a good idea! Reason be; ye can still hurt someone really bad weather th' weapon o' choice be steel, aluminum, or wood....or even plastic (oh ya, now we're reall PC!)

I only say this as having practice martial arts and even my 15 years o' skydiving....when ye practice with someone ye gets t' know them, ye know their reach, ye know their force, their week points 'n their strong points; but upon a New Greet, ye do Naught know a thing about them! Are they apprehensive, do they shy away; are they overly aggressive, easy t' forget this just be show 'n naught competition; individual's endurance issue, perhaps ye can fight for hours but they tire quickly, 'n naught want'n t' look a look attempt t' keep up with ye - recipe fer disaster! OK for backyard meet 'n greet, but bad news in front o' a public crowd.

I also relate this t' me skydiving, I was (before me arm injury) one o' th' best skydivers around, I had No Fear o' any kind o' dive, me mates even creatively came up with ones o' our own that blew others away as they watch'd th' video after. BUT, I learn'd th' hard way when it comes t' taking th' skill o' others fer granted. One day I was introduced to a newbie, I was told "He jumps like he has 300 under he's belt he does" so with that I took he'm up with another newbie who I knew only had 60. I designed th' dive around th' 60 count jumper, let th' "like 300" guy swoop in (something I later learned was a Mistake!).

Twas a simple jump, just four points planed, I jumped out with th' newbie 'n kept control o' he'm th' entire way (I was well adapt at fly'n for two, even three - one on each side o' me) but when I had expected th' other guy t' show but he did naught I began t' look around, that was when it happened - *BLAMM* - th' addlepate broadsided me, in full Track (that be 'arms t' he's side, do'n around 150+mph). Aye, we collided in mid air, that be two human bodies NAUGHT in a car colliding around 150mph, aye, it hurt...I thought he was dead, last I saw was his body spinning violently out of control as if he were unconscious; Me, I was near unconscious as he broadsided me head (I don't wear helmets....still did naught even after that...guess me motorcycle and skiing accidents knocked me stupid). Anway, we both survived, he's face gashed open pretty bad, me ear cut 'n noggin a hurt'n a whole lot. I came t' find out he ONLY had 80 jumps Naught th' 300 I was told....had I known that he NEVER would have been allowed t' swoop in and the accident never would have happened.

Moral; even if ye knows yerself, ye do naught know another until ye have actually flown with them.

Since that day I learned that no matter how 'good' someone tells me they are upon first meet, I say "Prove it" and make them prove it in a SAFE manor.

Now more closely t' topic at hand - Martial Arts

I have known people who just do naught have discipline for sparing, perhaps someday they will, but at the moment, they just get too carried away. Now I be speaking 'Hand to Hand'; it is bad enough t' get wacked with a fist, or spinning jump kick in th' face or chest - but t' be cracked in th' noggin by an aluminum blade because he could naught keep a 1/2 or 1/4 speed going. I know even from friends that I used t' spar with, after a year together some just felt they had t' go faster, harder, faster, harder!

Now like I said, that was Hand to Hand....a chuck o' metal, be it steal or aluminum can still crack a skull like a melon!

Anyway, just want'd t' add a word o' caution - me? I am game t' spar with anyone who will have me....but in public view, at a faire, I would like t' know who I be cross'n blades with....unless th' blaggard be a for reals bad guy - then th' gloves come off!

[Diosa De Cancion]

give him a couple of days

Aye, I'm used to it taking a while for men to be able to keep up with me.....

Edited December 30, 2008 by Goddess in the Bodice

[Capt. Sterling]

Oh I like this one too... she's a keeper!

[theM.A.dDogge]

MadL....

i thank you for your word of caution.....for that is still in the training....but let me clarify a few things before anyone thinks that what we are sugesting is being trained so that anyone can go up to a renny and challange them....

there are a few groups out there...that have like interests...and like styles in SATGE COMBAT.....we are suggesting to learn the same basic moves....for saftey....use the same rules....so when we get together next...we may THEN choreograph some simple exchanges....

i am not suggesting nor condoneing after a simple practice....you go spar with anyone...these are rehearsed moves for infront of public....not too the blood...not a cage fight mixer.....

this is a place for suggestions of how to engage another group...in a safe manner as well as setting...in a realistic format.

any and all suggestions are warrented and appreciated....kepp em comming

[Zephaniah W Nash]

Anyone interested in stage combat that hasn't read 'em, I suggest Swashbuckling by Richard Lane and Actors on Guard by Dale Anthony Girard.

They both have more information than the casual combatant would ever use, but they go from a general overview to very easily followed specifics. They may even both still be available.

I do a bit of teaching here and there, and have done the same that has been mentioned here, boiled things down to a couple of dozen basic moves, which can be expanded upon in the choreography. At one point, I had even started trying to put them together into a small book or online resource or somesuch, but as usual, something came along to distract me... Maybe I'll have to start that project back up...

There's a very short video of my better half and myself swinging steel here. It's close to the bottom of that page. I really need to get some longer, better video made -- perhaps over the holiday, if we all stay sober long enough...

[Diosa De Cancion]

let me clarify a few things before anyone thinks that what we are sugesting is being trained so that anyone can go up to a renny and challange them....

there are a few groups out there...that have like interests...and like styles in SATGE COMBAT.....we are suggesting to learn the same basic moves....for saftey....use the same rules....so when we get together next...we may THEN choreograph some simple exchanges....

this is a place for suggestions of how to engage another group...in a safe manner as well as setting...in a realistic format.

Agreed, the thought I had was that if you taught us the basics of the same moves you all do, when we meet up (say the day/night before PIP or another event) we could already have the basics down and then build off of the basics.

With that said, I would think if we were able to get the basic moves down then we could possibly start to work out general scripts...and thanks to video technology could even video the interactions and share them among one another.

Then, once we actually arrive on site, we even may know most of the scenario, but would still have to play it through with our counterparts a few times to make sure we are at the right tempo and can move through it safely.

I want us all to go home in one piece... but have a hell of a great time playing!

Edited December 30, 2008 by Goddess in the Bodice

[RustyNell]

The cattle prod fight must have been hillarious!!

You Kill me!! I would have died laughing when the cops showed up. I bet they enjoyed the show