Cartridges?

[MorganTyre]

I have some basic questions regarding cartridges. I've seen many references to them (such as the cartridge box from the whydah, etc.) but am not really sure what they are. Are these paper cartridges like the two links below? Are the cartridges just pre-measured powder that are torn open and poured down the barrel or is the whole thing rammed down the barrel? Does this make for a good blank load without wadding, etc? Any thoughts, reccomendations, etc on the subject?

http://www.lazyjacks.org.uk/cartrdge.htm

http://3rdalabama.org/roll_cart.htm

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

That is basically it. Civil War cartrige rolling is not a lot different than earlier period as far as re-enacting goes. As far as historical accuracy goes, there are many differences. The Northwest Territorial Alliance Rev-War organization had a wonderful page on their website a few years back showing three different types of cartridges from English, French, and Spanish documentation. I have not been able to find it since I replaced my computer, but I did copy the pages and can hard copy and mail those to any interested parties.

As for rolling blanks, here's how we do it out here:

using the paper cut for cartridge, place the dowel on the papaer and roll it from the small side to the long side. One end of the dowel should be rounded as a ball would be. Let this round end be about a quarter inch into the bottom of the tube. Press the edge down around the end of the dowel making it closed. Remove dowel and insert half a cotton ball, or the equivalent of dryer lint. Pour the measured charge of powder on top of that (65gr fff is my load), and fold the top over twice to seal it. The instructions on my print are alot more detailed but you get the idea.

When using them, remove on cartridge from box, tear off the top/tail with your teeth and be sure to get some on you rlip, mmmmmm yummy, and pour this down your previously safety inspected firelock, prime and fire. No rammers allowed on F&I or Rev-War battles that I know of, but most ACW units still carry them to the feild. Gotta watch out fer newbies!!!

Hope this helps. Others will have slightly different methods to share as well.

Bo

[theM.A.dDogge]

this ones really close to how we do it...tho i believe it to be more american cival war approved....but works really well

http://3rdalabama.org/roll_cart.htm

yo...Bo....i would be interested in seein some of your frenchie/spainy style documents on catridges.....

[MorganTyre]

So it sounds like the cartridge is just a pre-measured charge that gets torn open and poured in rather than the whole think being dropped in the gun and pricked at the vent hole. Thanks! That's one mystery solved. Now it's time to try my hand at making up some.

[Capt. Sterling]

Try yer hand at the tying method... that's what I do, but then again, I'm insane compared to the rest of my crew who just do the roll and fold...

[theM.A.dDogge]

thats why i have a bandlero with "apostles".....cant tie and failed oragami

[blackjohn]

Try yer hand at the tying method... that's what I do, but then again, I'm insane compared to the rest of my crew who just do the roll and fold...

Reminds me of my RevWar days when we rolled, folded, tied and waxed them. But then again, we made a party of it, and did them assembly-line style so it wasn't all that bad.

[Coastie04]

As a side note, when I was sailing on the Lady Washington, we pretty much used the same method for her cannons. However, we used tin foil as the cartridge, and rammed the whole thing down the barrel. Just as on the links provided, we used an appropriately sized dowel and flattened one end. Then poured in the measured powder, sometimes threw a bit of bisquick in the top for wadding (though never when we were firing at other boats - only when it was being used as a signal cannon), and then twisted the top end. Cartridge went in flat side down and got rammed, was pricked and primed when ready to fire, and touched off with slow match on a lanyard.

Coastie

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

I've been looking for the site that I found my info on but no luck so far, but I did come across this;

http://www.najecki.com/40thfoot/Cartridge1.html

http://www.najecki.com/40thfoot/Cartridge2.html

This is the best photo instruction i have ever seen for the French style which most re-enactors use.

Bo

Edited November 10, 2008 by Capt. Bo of the WTF co.

[theM.A.dDogge]

who knew??....i been a "frenchie" all these years!!!

[Crudbeard]

One thing I have found when making a cartridge former rod out of wood for the great guns, or cannon, is to drill an air hole down to the end straight through, or at a slant if the wooden former is longer than yer drill. This makes the tin foil cartridge slide off without crumpling from the vacumn. Another bit of equipment which is more trouble to make, but is worth it, is a female form to receive the tinfoil cartridge when pouring in the powder. It will hold the empty cartridge upright for filling, keep the cartridge shaped perfectly when compacting and crimping the end, and will give a visual second check on how full the cartridge is, helping to avoid overcharges. This is lathe work unless you happen to find just the perfect wooden socket. An advantage of a well formed cylindrical cartridge is that the amount loaded is obvious comparing to the other cartridges in your magazine.

Viceroy Sir Lawrence Campbell and I found at PIP a misfire that we suspect was caused by a cartridge that did not fit the bore very well and "tumbled" when being rammed. To avoid embarrassing failures to fire, I recommend that gunners avoid the crude "turdy" looking cartridges, but put a bit of effort in getting male and female formers made specifically for the bore of yer pieces.

[Patrick Hand]

When I make cartridges, I use a wooden former with the tip "cupped"... but once I've rolled the cartridge, Using my thumb, I roll and fold the end closed, and then push it into the cupped end (it looks kinda like a crimped end of a shotgun shell).. If you roll it tight enough, they don't break open....

[Crudbeard]

The folding in of the end of the cartridge sounds like an interestin idea, I'd like ta see it. An artillery safety school I attended once had the theory that folding the forward end of the cartridge sorter like yer a talkin about would keep the tin foil from blowin out with the blast. But all my loads blow out or disintegrate tha forward two thirds o tha cartridge anyways, an we consistently wurm out tha back end an a bit of the sides. Now mebbe I likes me boom-booms louder than they do, doan rightly know. But yer method wud have tha advantages I'm advocatin.

[Graydog]

But all my loads blow out or disintegrate tha forward two thirds o tha cartridge anyways,

On our six pounder firing 8 oz we always have the back half of the cartridge to worm out. On our 1.74" swivel guns firing 1- 2 oz's it's a 50% chance that there is any amount cartridge left when we worm after each shot. Many times there is just nothing there, but other times there's near half the foil of the cartridge.

[Crudbeard]

But all my loads blow out or disintegrate tha forward two thirds o tha cartridge anyways,

On our six pounder firing 8 oz we always have the back half of the cartridge to worm out. On our 1.74" swivel guns firing 1- 2 oz's it's a 50% chance that there is any amount cartridge left when we worm after each shot. Many times there is just nothing there, but other times there's near half the foil of the cartridge.

Yep, I have also found on my 1 1/4 inch bore cannons that occasionally all of the tin foil blows out. This is disconcertin, as yer wants to be sure all the cartridge is out, so yer wurms agin, and mebbe agin, which is a bit of hassle. I have taken ta making my 1 1/4 inch cartridges with extra thick butt ends to try to make sure that some is left, as the crew has been threatened with a touch o tha cat iffen they neglect ta get some tin foil out when they wurms. But even so, sometimes the cartridge departs fer parts unknown. Anybody know why?

[Iron Hand]

Iron Jack showed me a peculiar way to make cannon cartridge...It's labor intensive, but I have never had unburnt cartridge at all usin' his method for my swivels...

Ya take a coffee filter, fill with 2 oz. and roll up like a rat turd as Jack calls it, tieng the top closed. ya can make it as pretty or simple as ye want. I always tie a couple wraps of linnen thread around the body though....

They work great with little or no residue or unburnt cartridge in or out of the barrel....

I did roll some cannon cartridge the other day using the musket cartridge method...It works nice and quick....I just need to test it in the field to make sure it all burns....Don't wanna send embers into the winds or brush....If ya get me drift....Never did like makin' cartridge oughta foil, just my own silly feelins. It does make a lovely cartridge though......Iron Hand

[Crudbeard]

Iron Jack showed me a peculiar way to make cannon cartridge...It's labor intensive, but I have never had unburnt cartridge at all usin' his method for my swivels...

Ya take a coffee filter, fill with 2 oz. and roll up like a rat turd as Jack calls it, tieng the top closed. ya can make it as pretty or simple as ye want. I always tie a couple wraps of linnen thread around the body though....

They work great with little or no residue or unburnt cartridge in or out of the barrel....

I did roll some cannon cartridge the other day using the musket cartridge method...It works nice and quick....I just need to test it in the field to make sure it all burns....Don't wanna send embers into the winds or brush....If ya get me drift....Never did like makin' cartridge oughta foil, just my own silly feelins. It does make a lovely cartridge though......Iron Hand

Interestin'....more like tha old days. But I would also be concerned about not only leaving embers in the brush but also in the gun breech or up tha vent, resultin in, well, ya knows whot results. Yer also gets some extry protection with foil from sparks from some cussed spectators smokin a cigarette an standing behind yer magazine box, iffen yer be a firing on land. O course, ye be aware that tha AAA specifically don't allow anthing but tinfoil around yer cartridge. While we be pirates, tha Artillery Safety Rules are sorter tha National Standards that tha dammed sea lawyers u'll be a jabberin about in tha Court, iffen there ever be an accident. I likes ta try to show how pirates did it, but I'd keep it safe first.

[Patrick Hand]

just a simple observation.....

We have two different discussions going on here....

One about musket cartridges, and the other about cannon Cartridges.....

It's no big deal, but it does sometimes get a little confusing.....

"Hey... I like using a tin foil cartridge..."

"Wot inna musket?"

Most of us know the difference.... but we may wanna be more specific when we post.....

[Iron Hand]

Good That, Crudbeard........I ran a copy of the AAA's Safety Procedure, and will keep them in me Ammo boxes.......

I've never had to follow them precisely and have not ever been regulated by them at any pirate event.....Closest I've ever ran into was we had a National Civil War Artillery Line Marshall at the first Norcal that he had no problem with either our ammo boxes or ammo.

I mean no disrespect by any of these statements. Their Rules are Good ones and we follow most of them as required....I just prefer paper over tin when yer not firin' on a bonafied artillery range....I've never run into a firing range at any pirate affair yet, that I've attended. I've fired cannon using both Aluminum foil and paper and simply prefer paper cartridge in Scirmish cannon firings...IH

[Patrick Hand]

Closest I've ever ran into was we had a National Civil War Artillery Line Marshall at the first Norcal

That wasn't the one where we all had to turn in our ammo boxes over to the safe camp....

I have an old Army m-60 ammo can that I painted red, and it has my name on it.... I keep my loading gear and powder (in the can) inside it..... At the first Northern California Pyrate Festival, they made us turn in all of our powder to the safety camp.... and they just left my ammo box (powder and everything) sitting on the table, slightly roped off from the public (but anyone could have just reached across and grabbed it....)

I'd rather be in charge of my own powder, than have someone else do it.....

[Crudbeard]

just a simple observation.....

We have two different discussions going on here....

One about musket cartridges, and the other about cannon Cartridges.....

It's no big deal, but it does sometimes get a little confusing.....

"Hey... I like using a tin foil cartridge..."

"Wot inna musket?"

Arrrragh, yer right, matey. Crudbeard

Most of us know the difference.... but we may wanna be more specific when we post.....

[Iron Hand]

Closest I've ever ran into was we had a National Civil War Artillery Line Marshall at the first Norcal

That wasn't the one where we all had to turn in our ammo boxes over to the safe camp....

I have an old Army m-60 ammo can that I painted red, and it has my name on it.... I keep my loading gear and powder (in the can) inside it..... At the first Northern California Pyrate Festival, they made us turn in all of our powder to the safety camp.... and they just left my ammo box (powder and everything) sitting on the table, slightly roped off from the public (but anyone could have just reached across and grabbed it....)

I'd rather be in charge of my own powder, than have someone else do it.....

Yeah Patrick...That's the one.....I forgot about the "Powder Magazine", which consisted of a wooden box containing everones powder stores,left on a table(sometimes un-attended) inside a roped off camp...Like a rope will stop somebody who wants something on the otherside of said rope.....Wasn't too comfortable about that situation, or turnin' over me stores to someone I didn't know...I'd rather keep me powder close, Ye never know, There may be Pirates skulkin' in close proximity.....Yarr

[Crudbeard]

Closest I've ever ran into was we had a National Civil War Artillery Line Marshall at the first Norcal

That wasn't the one where we all had to turn in our ammo boxes over to the safe camp....

I have an old Army m-60 ammo can that I painted red, and it has my name on it.... I keep my loading gear and powder (in the can) inside it..... At the first Northern California Pyrate Festival, they made us turn in all of our powder to the safety camp.... and they just left my ammo box (powder and everything) sitting on the table, slightly roped off from the public (but anyone could have just reached across and grabbed it....)

I'd rather be in charge of my own powder, than have someone else do it.....

Amen ta that!, says I. Gives me tha shivers ta let go of me own supervision of me dangerous stuff, as I knows how safe I be, an not necessarily how safe tha others be. Yet I have seen some damn fools shootin at festivals that should not be allowed ta have blackpowder, as I be sure you have as well. Iffen we wanted ta be ordered about, we would join up with a military re-enactor group, but we be pirates by choice, 'cause we have tha freedom o behavin like pirates that satisfies our disreputable black hearts. But, yer was a waitin fer that "but" wern't ya? But, I be thinkin that lack o safety standards in pirate artilley is eventually goin ta get someone's head blowed off. So I'm a throwing this out, whot be ye all predicting as ta rules? Be they a comin', no?, yes?

[theM.A.dDogge]

i be thinkin ole darwin is turnin in his grave.....with all these rules to keep dumb people safe....wot do we get in return??.....more dumb people!!!

[Hawkyns]

Artillery Rules?? HELL YES!!!! On any line that I am in charge of. If someone won't submit to inspections of gun, kit and cartridge, either they leave the line or I stand down. And if there's a crew on the line that is doing something unsafe and the Master Gunner doesn't do something about it, I stand my guns down, also. If it's a crew I don't know, I want to see them do the drill dry before I let them load powder. If they are doing something not in accordance with the rules, they fix it or stand down. Iron Hand, I would not let you fire your cartridges on my line. Aluminum foil or nothing.

I also believe in a central powder magazine. At Pennsic, where I am the Master Gunner, and have enough powder for up to nine guns for a week's firing, all powder is stored in a double wall powder chest with locks on each wall. I have one set of keys, my number 2 has the others. I don't like the idea that powder can be in individual camps where I have no idea who is smoking, drinking, how close people can get to the powder or whatever. I'd rather have that 40 lbs where I have security, rather than dispersed about the camp.

We can talk about being freebooting pirates all we want, but one accident with this and we can all get shut down. We are in a position that we have large amounts of powder and large calibre weapons that are effectively unlicensed. The anti gunners out there, as well as some in homeland security would love an excuse to shut us down and remove gunpowder from public access. I'm not about to risk losing thousands of dollars worth of cannon and the right to continue firing because someone wants to play fast and loose with the safety rules. I folow the same powder rules as the British Brigade, the Brigade of the American Revolution, the Continental line. They are similar to the American Civil War Artillery Association, also, with the caveat that we do not use friction primers. Yes, I run my guns and my line just like one of those 'military reenactor groups'. That way we keep our guns and our hands intact.

Hawkyns