decorative stitching on shirts & how the shirts

[lady constance]

ahoy!!

have finished 6 shirts.....

but i SAW one that Mary Diamond made... gorgeous!!

and noted the details of her neck line....

but , is it period correct to do as i please around the necklines?

were there typical designs of that time ? such as leaves/ flowers/fluer de li's type of motifs?

was it all up to whomever sewed the shirt to do as they pleased? { keeping in mind it is a man wearing the shirt}

the dear husband says it might be too much-- my answer was , " you are a pirate.... you stole a better looking shirt off a man you took down on raid!"......

AND---

my husband notices with much comment about how the Gaop shirts HANG goofy ------- the whole front of the shirt rides BACKWARDS,which in effects the neck opening---it goes backwards so that he is constantly pulling the shirt forwards..... WHILE at the same time the sleeves and shoulder pull forwards.........???? { it is true}

even when tucked into his shorts/ pants/ whatever he has on at the time.....

is this a common problem with ye men???????

or am i doing something wrong????

i appreciate ANY advice or comments on this subject!!!

and will plead with the husband to post a pic of the problem............

pax et oro

lady constance

[michaelsbagley]

Ahoy back...

There are two different opinions on "looted clothing" for pirates.

As far as decor goes, maybe Mary Diamond or Sterling will pipe in as they know far more about the style and hows of decorating shirts for the era...

But as for fancy shirts and looted clothing... Some are of the opinion that pirates would have constantly upgraded their clothing pillaging what they wanted.... Others are more of the opinion that pirates were sailors, and remained so after turning to a life of crime, and wouldn't have bothered with fancy clothes as being too impractical at sea... If you dig through the archives of the Captain's Twill section, there are several debates, some freindly, some rather impassioned... But I have yet to see any real definative solid evidence for either side of that debate... Although from what I have seen, I tend to lean far more to the basic no-frills clothing, and in my opinion, in reading through those threads, there does seem to be more evidence to support more working class clothing for pirates than fancy gentle-folks clothing....

People tend to get their hackles up when stuff like this is said... But honestly there are FAR TOO MANY officers, captains and fancy pirates out there.... The hobby is in very bad need of actually crewmen... But that is just my humble opinion.

Now back to more specifically addressing your questions... Shirts do fit and hang differently than modern shirts, and they do tend to pull in strange directions. Chalk that up to partially different postures and builds as Sterling mentioned in the post on the other thread of questions you asked. And partly, the design is just meant to hang differently. They are undergarments, whereas modern shirts are meant more as outer wear. Generally speaking, the waistcoat (whether sleeved or vest-style) tend to be the main outer layer for display covering the shirt for the most part. Hope this helps.

[Capt. Sterling]

Faggoting at the neck opening seems to serve not only a decorative purpose but also reinforces/strengthens that bottom of the opening. There is sometimes reinforced stitching at the bottom of the side seams as there can be stress at such places as well. As the Am. Rev. War rolls around, you will sometimes see a heart shaped patch sewn over the bottom neckline opening to serve as a reinforcement. By the 19th century, a neckline pleats over to form a placket, which is stitched down at the bottom for reinforcing.

Initials were often applied to show ownership, they can sometimes be seen at the bottom corner of a shirt or at the bottom of the neck opening as well.

As to the neck pulling backwards slightly, I can't say exactly why that is happening, although I have noticed it with many shirts, especially where the back gathers are pulled tightly together toward the center back...I keep my gathers evenly distributed across the back between the two neck gussets (even though the gathers really aren't very pronounced)

Also, perhaps it is because the neckline is not yet cut curved but consists only of a straight line cut across the tops of the shoulders. (although the gussets seem to be an attempt at such)

As I always wear my shirt collar buttoned with a scarf or cravat around my neck, I don't notice the backward pull.

As to shirts trying to "correct" one's stance... not sure they were designed with such in mind as the basic style covers a number of years prior and afterward. If anything I would think the fit of the coat and weskit, and certainly in a lady's case the corset, would be more a determining factor regarding such.

[count de monet]

here are a few pics to illustrate my problem... the pattern is from GoF's website link.... there are arm gussets, but no neck gussets. only neck opening reinforcing patches..

with the shoulder fabric "falling" forward, it feels tight across the back. but the collar feels right.

with the shoulder fabric straightened out, the collar gets pulled back

first attempt, should've used the 5" gussets

2nd attempt with the better 5" gussets, but notice the shoulder fabric "falling" forward..

shirt 2 with the shoulder fabric straightened out, but notice how it pulls the collar back too far....

the other shirts, we narrowed the body of the shirt thinking this may help, but only ended up with the same problem. only on the first shirt did the shoulders not feel like pulling..

these trial shirts are made of muslin. we are saving the linen until we get it right

any advice for us newbies ???

ps--- the goofy looking guy in the pic is indeed me

[Capt. Sterling]

first attempt, should've used the 5" gussets

Right then, the body of the shirt is too wide in this picture... the drop shoulder should fall off the shoulders by about six inches or so...this looks like almost a foot on each side...

To find the proper body width... measure on the left arm from about 6" to 7" below the natural shoulder, up across the shoulder and the back of the neck to the right natural shoulder and down 6" to 7" on the right arm.

[Capt. Sterling]

here are a few pics to illustrate my problem... the pattern is from GoF's website link.... there are arm gussets, but no neck gussets. only neck opening reinforcing patches..

Neck reinforcing patches, I am thinking you mean the triangular piece that covers over the end of the slit across the tops of the shoulders? These are referred to as gussets...

are you including the gathering stitches along the neck gusset edge that trapped inside the collar?

[Capt. Sterling]

I would adjust the gathers on this shirt move toward the front and space more evenly... these appear to pull toward the back of the collar.

[count de monet]

Neck reinforcing patches, I am thinking you mean the triangular piece that covers over the end of the slit across the tops of the shoulders? These are referred to as gussets...

are you including the gathering stitches along the neck gusset edge that trapped inside the collar?

after reading this, i double checked the pattern.. yes, we had it wrong..we had the pieces sewn in wrong and assumed they were for reinforcing and not a gusset.

as of this moment, lady constance is adding them in correctly, and we'll have to see how that makes a difference.

are all your gathers in the back so the front is somewhat flat ?? or do you put some of the gathers in the front also ??

[Capt. Sterling]

The gathers are spaced evenly with the gusset sitting on top of the shoulder

[lady constance]

WELL A HEARTY THANK YOU TO CAP'N STERLING AND MICKEY--

{ and MARY DIAMOND FOR THE PERSONAL emails on this particular issue}---------

we have finally seen the ignorance of our ways!!!---

it has been done! --AND ON LINEN TO BOOT!! { i did tell the count i am rather SICK of working in muslin!!}

as gratuity to all of you {aside from all the prayers asking for your personal blessings for all of your charity and patience with us}, i shall make the dear husband post the final product..... not much eh?

and may i publicly acknowledge that my husband is not so picky--- {perhaps it is well that he is so-- he DID choose me for a wife!!} --- it was my fault!!!!!! { no great suprise there!!! during our marriage i have been wrong 50% of the time, excepting finances and child rearing practices--then i am 90% right!! }--- and we are still dickering between the two of us about underarm sleeve "boxes" { my vote is to make them one peice cut at a gently eliptical curve for the underarm space- easier on the seamstress}--- and i am willing to hand sew in the lines making it LOOK as if there are squares there }

and Cap'n Sterling--- awwwwwwwwwww-- man i was hoping i could really do some cool looking needlework on the shirts !!!!!!!!!! SIGH!!!

anyway-- i have fabric to dye today at my mothers house as i donot have a top loading washer ---- the more i get dyed, the more i get to sew.... good thing i have quite a crew of galley slaves to keep up on the daily washing and cooking while i play with pirate clothing making!!!

PAX et ORO

lady constance

[Capt. Sterling]

and Cap'n Sterling--- awwwwwwwwwww-- man i was hoping i could really do some cool looking needlework on the shirts !!!!!!!!!! SIGH!!!

PAX et ORO

lady constance

Nothing wrong with doing some interesting faggoting ..

[lady constance]

Capn Sterling,

did get janet arnolds book about clothing construction and directions and real examples..... AWESOME!!!---

they have unbeleivable actual pictures of all kind of needlework done one coats a sleeves and necklines -----and interestingly enough women sewed the under clothes and shirts of their families-- and the laws concerning such... very interesting reading!!!

and the knot{ something like 2 billion knots} tie-ing book of my husbands----- al the decorative ways to use and tie and such tht was used on all kind of garments.... navy and nautical things ..... OOOOOH!!!-- how the knots were made and sewn over on clothing of all kinds..... from many centuries....

and there are many types of faggoting stitches!! for edges, and all over use.... patterning the stitch... usig the cloths natural warp and weft...

aggravate the count to post his NEW linen shirt on line--- of course i cannot finish until i have buttons he ordered -- but that is all that is left to do!! 3 buttons and their holes.... :)

pax et oro

lady constance

[Capt. Sterling]

Can't wait to see em...

[michaelsbagley]

Hey Consance/Pax,

In reading yuour last post, a thought came up.... You might want to read this old thread on buttons/shirt closures.

Shirt Closures, how to close the sleeves and neck

It does provide some interesting insight on the topic..