historical patterns

[lady constance]

greetings fellow pirates-FAIR WARNING-- RANT ENSUES!!!-- dont be taking it personal anyone!!

tonight i followed the Gaop directions for a mans shirt...

and needless to say, i cannot understand WHY they ever sewed that way!! i guess their scissors were not sharp or unable/unwilling /didnot think about cutting curves or lack of adequate measuring or lack of thinking outside the box{ the this is the way we do it , dont ask questions theology} - WHAT???- sheer frustration never occurred ?encouraging them to try different methods!!! there was a reason, and maybe if i think long enough, i could deduce it......... ANYWAY!!!--- i seek understanding to WHY they did things in the ways that they did!!-- i mean for Gods sake, did they think they had to use advanced euclidian geometry when sewing?????????!!!!!--this aint wood working or marble laying-- fabric GIVES!!

praise be to GOD for some one discovering nipping a curve! to make it lay flat and nips and tucks and pleats and seam allowances and bust darts!!!!

i am not sure who the patron saint of sewing is, BUT i shall find him/her and take all the intercession proffered for my projects !!!

does anyone know if the historical patterns are adjusted to todays sewing abilities?

as in, are they like typical patterns? or does each pattern and gown and coat made have insane box mitered fabric wasting/saving corners building a cathedral methods? ie.. take a square stone and hew it into circles and angles and flying buttress abilities involved????

i cannot imagine making 2 of everything for 11 peple all period correct sewing ways!!! { i will do it, but PLEEEEEAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSSEEE , not the back assward way of the 17th/18th century!!}{ as i run screaming from the bernina machine as if it were possessed!!!}

the count says that people here HIGHLY and GLOWINGLY reccommend the historical patterns.....

as far as i can see, they are worth every dabloon they cost IF they use modern methods of sewing---

can some one enlighten me? i want to know EVERYTHING YOU THINK ADN EXPERIENCED WITH THESE PATTERNS!!

and thank you for putting up with my spewing of the mind and heart.. truly therapy!!

a thousand pardons for me glowing lunacy aspewing from me !!

not sure if i burned purgatory time or earned it tonight!!

pax

lady constance

[michaelsbagley]

Pax/Lady Constance,

I'm not sure what pattern you are using, and whether you didn't mention the brand name of pattern you used out of respect for the vendor, or as an oversight from the rancour of your rant... But a good first step may be to contact the developer of the pattern, and ask him or her about the reasoning behind the way the pattern was developed and designed the way it was. Or is your pattern from a web site?

I guess I am trying to sum things up by saying, it would be easier to help explain something if we knew hat you were asking about in particular. I've made a LOT of GAoP clothing items, and to be honest, they all pretty much made sense to me (well the Mantua gave me some confusion the first time), really the main thing that seems very strange and somewhat unnatural is the way linings are sewn on jackets and coats.

I'd love to help and give advice if I can, but the question as I am reading it is a bit too general and needs a bit more focus... Even if it turns into a lot of questions.

[lady constance]

Dear Mickey/pii rate-- { love the word trickery there!!}

the pattern was a GAop from the internet.. one we see with squares sown to give armpit allowance....

i made the mans shirt for my husband , and GEEEZ... there is more than ONE way to fold a diagnonal flap of fabric!! { cause i did it and sewed it to itself thinking that .... well-- one screw up and and DONT use a tight stitch on the bernina cause there ain't NO getting it out with a seam ripper!!! HA HA HA HA!---

and you can forget about flat felled seams for historical accuracy!! i AIN"t making tent!! { although the shirt LOOKS like one!! HA HA HA!!}

and trying to gather the collar --- i prefer to tuck evenly every measured place tha tneeds to be gathered instead of the ruffled look where things could be so uneven after wards.....

then the man of my dreams says " are they supposed to be this big and floppy?" -- yes they are m'dear { as i think about the one hour i have just put into the thing!!!!!}-- my husband has perfect physique- he could model and make tons---- not an ounce of flab or floundering flesh to be accomadated....

and the man wears business shirts even though he be an electrician by trade... he prefers a very neat appearance, and to be honest, the loose fit of the pirate stuff makes him look like he has dumped in his drawers and that he ripped a shirt of a man 3x his size ---so imagine adonis in a hobos clothes!! i married man who MAKES the suit look good...and not the other way around!!

and to be honest, i am so used to following patterns and adjusting and making things fit from expereinceetc.... that i find my self actually handicapped by habits!!

it is NOT the pattern makers fault-- i assume they were going for histircal accuracy after looking at a piece from history.....

i suppose that what i really want is to know IF it is allowable and will be tolderated that i have made the clothes look fabulous by todays standards yet in period fabric????

you see the pirate coat is really tux pattern[ of 3-4 variations} with elongated and added gore type pleats--- the breeches are mens docker type pants with shortened length and banded/placket closures--- the pirate shirts are mens dress shirts with gores under the arm for fullness and the billowing effect.....

i have the ability with fabric to just create what i see--custom fitting and draping to get the look i want...

what i want to know is

do the historical patterns include funky directions and weird ways of lining/pockets/ et al.. that i am unaccustomed to, and that donot save me time and fabric ???????

and is that allowed? to take the best from the past and use todays technology to accomplish the look and feel?

i also understand actually walking and living in the past peoples life adn clothesstyle that makes us grateful for todays advanced ways that do simplify life to live at the pace we do....BUT DO WE HAVE TO live with the funky scratching, itching uncomfortable ways???

PAX,

lady constance

[michaelsbagley]

Dear Mickey/pii rate-- { love the word trickery there!!}

Glad you appreciate the word-play, there is even more to it if you speak French and know old cartoons.

the pattern was a GAop from the internet.. one we see with squares sown to give armpit allowance....

The pattern I have seen online, and the pattern I bought from a garb researcher both have these square gussets to give the arms more freedom of movement... I used to do Norse, and these type of gussets were used heavily in Norse garb as well... I'm not sure if that means they were used throughout all the middle ages and rennaissance, or if that is just an odd similarity.

i made the mans shirt for my husband , and GEEEZ... there is more than ONE way to fold a diagnonal flap of fabric!! { cause i did it and sewed it to itself thinking that .... well-- one screw up and and DONT use a tight stitch on the bernina cause there ain't NO getting it out with a seam ripper!!! HA HA HA HA!---

and you can forget about flat felled seams for historical accuracy!! i AIN"t making tent!! { although the shirt LOOKS like one!! HA HA HA!!}

I usually do French seaming for shirts and chemises, I don't know if either style of stitching is more accurate or not, but I find French seaming gives a better looki and feel to finer garments, I pretty much only ever use Flat-fell seams on trousers/breeches and as you said, tents.

and trying to gather the collar --- i prefer to tuck evenly every measured place tha tneeds to be gathered instead of the ruffled look where things could be so uneven after wards.....

I too evenly gather my collars rather than a random pull... and I haven't noticed a significant difference in appearance between my work and that of those who go more random.

then the man of my dreams says " are they supposed to be this big and floppy?" -- yes they are m'dear { as i think about the one hour i have just put into the thing!!!!!}-- my husband has perfect physique- he could model and make tons---- not an ounce of flab or floundering flesh to be accomadated....

and the man wears business shirts even though he be an electrician by trade... he prefers a very neat appearance, and to be honest, the loose fit of the pirate stuff makes him look like he has dumped in his drawers and that he ripped a shirt of a man 3x his size ---so imagine adonis in a hobos clothes!! i married man who MAKES the suit look good...and not the other way around!!

I do my shirts loose, but I see no reason they couldn't be more fitted, although making it too fitted would look pretty wrong to my eyes... Just as going too baggy would also look a little too "Harlequin Romance" rather than historic.

and to be honest, i am so used to following patterns and adjusting and making things fit from expereince etc.... that i find my self actually handicapped by habits!!

it is NOT the pattern makers fault-- i assume they were going for histircal accuracy after looking at a piece from history.....

i suppose that what i really want is to know IF it is allowable and will be tolderated that i have made the clothes look fabulous by todays standards yet in period fabric????

you see the pirate coat is really tux pattern[ of 3-4 variations} with elongated and added gore type pleats--- the breeches are mens docker type pants with shortened length and banded/placket closures--- the pirate shirts are mens dress shirts with gores under the arm for fullness and the billowing effect.....

i have the ability with fabric to just create what i see--custom fitting and draping to get the look i want...

To be honest, while some here are going for historical accuracy, there are different groups with different focuses, so ultimately what matters most is what group's standards you are aiming to follow or emulate, or if you are doing your "own thing", do what makes you happiest. There is no universal or even national "authenticity standard" for pirate re-enacting. Through many conversation on this forum, certain common conventions have started to sort of come about, but nothing official will ever likely come to be. Pirate are by nature too independant and free spirited to get too bogged down with authenticity standards.

what i want to know is do the historical patterns include funky directions and weird ways of lining/pockets/ et al.. that i am unaccustomed to, and that donot save me time and fabric ???????

and is that allowed? to take the best from the past and use todays technology to accomplish the look and feel?

I've found the period methods have not saved or wasted any more or less fabric than modern methods, they just give a slightly different look. Many of the period methods do tend to take more time as they are geared to hand sewing (sewing machine not being invented for another 200 years or so)... So if you are machine sewing, some changes could save you time, but if you are hand sewing anyways, it would serve you well to use the period techniques. It might go a bit slower for you at first, but once you get used to it, the time difference will be negligable. Also do searches in this forum in both the "Captain's Twill" and "Plunder" areas, and you will find LOTS of information people have shared on thier research and their experiments in recreating various period garb items. There are "stickied" topics (Thanks to Patrick Hand) that directly link to most of the best clothing topics... This is an incredibly valuable resource! You'll save yourself a TON of time by using this resource.

i also understand actually walking and living in the past peoples life adn clothesstyle that makes us grateful for todays advanced ways that do simplify life to live at the pace we do....BUT DO WE HAVE TO live with the funky scratching, itching uncomfortable ways??

PAX,

lady constance

Again, this is a matter of personal preference... Find out what group(s) are in your area that you might want to work with (or even join), ask about what standards or cenventions they use, and try to stick with that... Should you go the independant route, use your own best discretion... Although knowing what the nearby groups are doing can still be valuable so you can try to keep yourselves compatible by keeping similar standards.

Hope this has helped. If I am missing anything, please let me know, and I will happliy help, and I am sure eventually others may pipe in as well.

[lady constance]

Mickey,

well.... thank you greatly for all your words and references and i SHALL do the research in cap'n twill and plunder topics....

and i think i will just use what i know about pivoting on the points to extend and change lines and gathering methods and tucks and such of todays ways without sacrificing an authentic look-- the look will hopefully be indistinguishable from period patterns.... i will let you all be the judge of that at pirates in paradise.... as if anyone down there is gonna be on armpit ,jewel , bust and waist and lining patrol !!!

and i gather from your answer that the historical patterns do have major differences to our sewing ways.... tis ok! do they give explanation for these ways? --- i am sure that it is in my budget to buy at least one.....do you hae reccomendation as to which one would be the best bet? any one that you have tried and were so delighted with its outcome that yah are just so glad yah purchased it?

and may i ask another question?

you spoke earlier about the mantua giving you grief--- what would you think about taking a dress pattern that is similar in shape and simply splitting it down the middle and adjusting the front/side/ downward panels as a way to replace period mantuas?

PAX,

lady constance

[Capt. Sterling]

Lady Constance,

Not to be a drag, but many of the Living Historian/Reenactor types copy originals from the time period because we want to do things as they did them. Sure anyone can take a modern pattern and add gores/pleats, but then I would advise caution as you don't want to be putting in seams that simply were not used then... or are simply in the wrong place to begin with because in many cases, modern standards are just not the same. And in all honesty, I have sewn both modern and 19th century tuxedos and tail coats... neither come close to original patterns from the GAoP.

Sure some sewing techniques need rethinking but if you ask questions of them that be reproducing said historical patterns, most are more than happy to lend assistance. And once you know how the garment was sewn in the past it is easily reproduced if one has experience in sewing. You see in our case, it doesn't matter what we know about sewing now a days, it matters how they did what they did, in order for us to put forth the best presentation... and this takes time, none of us got it right the first time out... and all of us are still correcting things the more we learn.

Trying to create garments using the modern mindset is fine for certain groups but is not what the historically minded are aiming for. Their goals are to present the history as accurately as possible as they are out to educate, and thus, go to great lengths and expenses to get it right. Unfortunately, in the long run, this is not a cheap hobby...grin.

Odds are you will pass muster down at Pip, but I would check with William Red Wake if you are a member of the Mercury Crew to be certain, and I know most groups allow a reasonable amount of time to get it right, so you may wish to begin at the point you are currently at and then grow to be more historically correct... because, frankly, having done this for decades, there is a major difference between clothing that is done properly for the time frame and that which is done to suit. It is easy to pick out in a crowd of pirates who are the "real" ones and who isn't... even the crowds can tell. But again, all this depends on the group's standards that you are affiliated with.... There is always one or two per group willing and able to steer you in the right direction.

My recommendation... get it right the first time, instead of having to fix it at a later date. Such only adds to time and cost. Start with the basics, shirts, trousers, some sort of waistcoat or jacket for the men can come later.... for the girls, shifts, petticotes and some sort of cap and neckcloth, corsets/stays and mantuas can come later...although I highly recommend getting stays done as soon as possible. In many cases this will get you out on the field at many events.

[Silkie McDonough]

I have to agree with Sterling. If you know this is something you want to do then do it right the first time then you don't have to redo it all. I took the "let's see" approach and one year later I need new stays and I can't be near the fire (Poly linen blend melts when a spark lands on it ...linen smolders)

[Capt. Sterling]

And wool around the fire is even far more safer than linen... ask Cheeky, it is also not that much warmer to wear in the long run... Her Bess Hagarty always wears a woolen petticote for her outer petticote.

[michaelsbagley]

Mickey,

well.... thank you greatly for all your words and references and i SHALL do the research in cap'n twill and plunder topics....

Two really good threads to help get you started (sorry I didn't post these with my last response) are below... While these two threads are NOT any official standards, they do cover a good baseline standard that most historically focussed re-enactment groups would try to aim for...

Femal Minimum garb standards

Minimum Garb Standards (Male focussed)

Ressurecting either of those threads with more focussed questions would serve you well, as the threads were made with the notion of helping guide those just getting started on the path to the authentic look.

and i think i will just use what i know about pivoting on the points to extend and change lines and gathering methods and tucks and such of todays ways without sacrificing an authentic look-- the look will hopefully be indistinguishable from period patterns.... i will let you all be the judge of that at pirates in paradise.... as if anyone down there is gonna be on armpit ,jewel , bust and waist and lining patrol !!!

and i gather from your answer that the historical patterns do have major differences to our sewing ways.... tis ok! do they give explanation for these ways? --- i am sure that it is in my budget to buy at least one.....do you hae reccomendation as to which one would be the best bet? any one that you have tried and were so delighted with its outcome that yah are just so glad yah purchased it?

The patterns focus more on HOW it was done. It would be just an educated guess if the author of the patterns tried to write the WHY. I use [Reconstructing History patterns, and love them. If I were to recommend just one pattern from them, it would be the mantua, as there is no other real web resource to get a good pattern for that from (that I know of)... Personally, I own close to a dozen patterns from Reconstructing History (some from other time periods as well).

and may i ask another question?

you spoke earlier about the mantua giving you grief--- what would you think about taking a dress pattern that is similar in shape and simply splitting it down the middle and adjusting the front/side/ downward panels as a way to replace period mantuas?

Having made a mantua, I am skeptical of this working.... The pleating and styling of the mantua is pretty unique, which is why I would advise you of buying that pattern if you are going to limit yourself to one and only one pattern purchase. To be honest, my biggest problem with the mantua was overthinking it and applying my modern ways of thinking to it. After a few calls to Reconstructing History, my mental block was explained away, and I finally "got it". I can be pretty obsessive about the WHYs of things too, but in making garb, I have started to just accept that certain things were just done a certain way, and leanred to shut off my need to know why.

Anyways, hope this has been helpful.

[Capt. Sterling]

One of the most detailed and easiest to follow is Janet Arnold's Mantua pattern in her book Patterns of Fashion c1660-1860

If you can enlarge a graph pattern and simply resize it to fit... this is the way to go... if you have the basics for sewing down and some draping experience, not even much, it is a breeze to put together.

But a mantua is usually worn over stays (most common by far, although I do have one plate of a woman without the stays and she is labeled poor)... so please take into consideration that the stays should be made first

[lady constance]

I thank all of you for your generous and detailed responses--

at this point i am going to force my dear husband to learn to post pictures here ---and let you all tell us if they are period correct ---

at this point i am using all the Gaop patterns from the web resources....

thus far i have made 2 ladys aprons, one man shirt and 2 womens knife pleated skirts on ties and one ladies chemise-- which i KNOW is wrong as there are not gores added-- so i can simply make it into an extra shirt or rip it apart and just give it to some one -- it is too large{ unless you all tell me that it is period correct to be that big--}

now , if i may ask another question.....

WHAT COLOR WERE STAYS? i have not been able to find and answer to that question for the life of me... i cannot imagine it in black or red or navy---- but i see lots of pale greens and golden rods/mustards being used for their colors--- { chole has made one that color}

PAX,

lady constance

[Capt. Sterling]

Stays can be just about any color that was available during the time frame...

[Capt. Sterling]

one ladies chemise-- which i KNOW is wrong as there are not gores added--

Not quite sure what you mean here... as I have a detailed sketch of an original that does have gores added... or are you saying you just didn't add them yourself this time around??

[lady constance]

well under everyones good guidance and recommendations,

we are going to go historically correct..... seems the only way to silence our hearts trepidation and give ease to our minds....

dothe right thing---

or as the husband says

"that be right piraty of ye and me !"

thank all of you for going thru this conflagration with us........

mighty nice o yes to be so patient with the likes of our kind!

now i got to spend me dabloons getting em done and all....

and happy to be doin it..........

thanks again... :)

lady constance

[Rumba Rue]

The majority of the historical patterns I have were done right from period garments.

Now I admit there are somethings like those armpit gusses that just make me say 'forget it' and just make a regular sleeve to fit the arm hole. Other instances of doing things simpler is what I do best.

If I can find a way to cut corners and still have the item look good, I will do it.

So I cheat....I'm a pirate.

[count de monet]

my husband has perfect physique- he could model and make tons---- not an ounce of flab or floundering flesh to be accomadated....

with that being said...... can anyone reccomend a supplier of period glasses ???? strong prescription ones ???

[michaelsbagley]

Well Mr. Monet...

This Place seems to carry period glasses.... I would call to see if they do perscription (but it seems as though they might)...

Jas Townsend has glasses althogh you will likely have to buy the frames from Jas Townsend, and have custom made perscription lenses made by your local optometrist...

It seems G. Gedney Godwin (Sutler of Moutn Misery) carries the glasses as well, but again, you will likely have to have new lenses made by your local optometrist...

For more information check these threads out...

Eye Glasses during the GAoP

What kind of Glasses are appropriate for GAoP?

[Capt. Sterling]

GAoP time frame spectacles are a bit hard to get yer hands on... as the temple, or side piece that goes over the ear is supposedly not invented until 1727... pretty much the end of the GAoP.

Late 17th century styles

specs

1727 Edward Scarlett

I have seen exactly one person wearing a proper pair of specs for our time frame... he is a wonderful gentleman who works for Skirmish (and Cheeky can correct me here as he may be one of the owners of the mag). He plays an early 18th dragoon and has the specs held in place by a ribbon about his head.

I can try contacting him and asking where he obtained his, but I do not know how long it will take to get a reply. As to glasses with the temple bar I have seen tons of pirates wearing them even though it seems they are truly not correct for the time frame... let's face it, people need to see...in which case I would agree with Mr. Bagley concerning the places listed. I would highly recommend contacts instead IF you can wear them...

[count de monet]

slow down a little guys..... that was in response to my wife's quote

[Capt. Sterling]

I see it now.... right then, no more port for now.... but then I am the one with one blind eye...

[count de monet]

glad you've seen the sarcastic humor.....

but, dang... the very informative and quick response !!!

you guys are great

[count de monet]

but then I am the one with one blind eye...

don't feel alone... i'm deaf in one ear and can't hear out of the other

[lady constance]

count--

i could come up with come smart a** comment---

ay-- the world would be a better place without smart a** folks , eh?