Faire vs Re-enactment

[HarborMaster]

About a Society for thee Unwanted !I would be thinking the rules would be there are none., As pirates ..,Rules are meant to be broken so whats the point ? Especially in the clothing dept.

There should be "Guidelines" a natural order if you will.

You should be looking for Ready .,Willing., and Loyal to the Code. A Chain of command Not A Mutinous Bunch of Idiots..., But a smooth working Captain and his Officers who could in fact get his/her Guild "Sailing"

To have contacts with as many people as you can who are for example in pirate guilds already ., (There are several on the board who have there own Guild or are in one?)

They need to ALL be addressed., Then collectively find out what states they are in.., and if they are followers or leaders? Follwers are a must!., However YOU are looking for the leaders.

Leaders are people who may have enough experience .,leadership and desire to be able to help create events in their locale !!! Charging entry fee's can pay for the venue., It can be done at City parks? fair grounds in the off season? Camp grounds? Many places .,hopefully at least 3 times a year! Some may even choose to incorporate local charities !!! Kiwanis .,Handicapped.,for example (troubled youth) that right there draws attention from upper citizens in the community as well as recruites new blood! .

Work into perhaps from the local level down a Captain of a guild to be in charge., his sargent at arms (purser).., ect., to upper members say a commodore?., a state person., and finally Admiral? Who can post the upcoming events., what they did., and how it went?.

ALOT OF FUN COULD BE HAD MORE OFTEN.

HarborMaster

Any Ideas?

[Captian Wolfy Wench]

I's prolly shouldn't even answer, becuase some of it doesn't apply to me.

Fer one, since I'm Captain WOLFY Wench, I gotta have the tail. It's just... me look, lad. 'S me name. :)

Second, I've been to a few faires, and the last pirate one I attended, my costume was not ready, so I was in street clothes. I also had my mum and friend there who thought me a little crazy for wanting to buy a pistol.

Third, gods, if they would SEND ME my ordered sword already, I would sure as hell use it! I'm actually underage for all of this, but only a few months until 18! *cheers*

Fourth, I've only been really making costumes and such for a few years, so I'm not so broken in yet. Especially me Captain Wolf costume. I don't have my real one yet, I'm getting it made, and shall have it for whatever costume event there is next. So I guess I can say that exact historical accuracy isn't all that important to me, but I won't be running around with shotguns or crossbows. Not that... that's allowed, but like I care!

I guess that there should be a list of rules or guidelines for Faire Wear if'n you think it's really getting out of control. And since yer a re-enactor, Hawkyns, I'm guessin' that the historical accuracy is important to ye. Re-enacting and faires for celebration are a bit different, but they can be mingled. I'm not yet old enough or have enough resources to be a re-enactor yet, but methinks I'll get into it when I get a car and the liberty/time to drive freely.

Captain Wolfy Wench

[Hawkyns]

Interesting concept. A pirate based society with our own events. I like it. I am primarily a re-enactor, yes, but I like to have fun too. What makes me twitch about the whole authenticity question is people who are 'out of place'. Tricorns in the 16th C, caplocks in the 18th C, fantasy clothing at a re-enactment, things like that. So history is important to me, because that's the kind of event I prefer.

If a series of events were set up, though, that the only criteria is 'pirate', then it opens it up to historic and fantasy people. Question is, if we did do something like that, what would we do? Sitting around drinking rum only lasts so long-get bored or pass out. One of the reasons I do the historic stuff is that there's something to do. Battles, swordfighting, cannon demos, shooting competitions, and just plain living-cooking washing, repairing kit, chopping wood, etc. That's one of the reasons I've pretty much dropped out of the SCA, if you're not interested in their tournament fighting style, there's not much to do.

I've looked into some of the LARPs, too. Problem with them is that it's mostly teenagers, combat is with boffer swords, and there's too much magic and not enough action. I like the concept, but they are just not done right. I have a huge collection of sword and sorcery books and movies (some directly attributable to one of our pirate brethren of the pub ). If someone were to come up with a decent version I'd be interested, but they are so dummed down to allow the young'uns to play.

Renfaires you get to shop and listen to the music, and occasionally drink a bit. Too much emphasis on children for my taste. I know some of you have said some faires have adult only days, but none of the faires near me do.

An adult pirate LARP with reasonable combat rules, decent taverns and a small village could be the way to go. A few merchants of quality stuff would be good. Just a place where we could go and actually live the pirate life for a day or two or more. No 20th c crap, just PIRATES!!

Hawkyns

(stepping down from the soapbox)

[Black Deacon]

Woo Hoo, I'm behind you on that one. Me bretheren here with the Texican Privateers have been talking about doing something similar. Now, granted Galveston hasn't the blue clear waters of Florida, but we be rich in Pirate History. In fact Jean La Feat's Treasure has never been found.

[Matty Bottles]

What would we do, Hawkyns? What wouldn't we do! This idea is amazing! You like camping, chopping wood, battles, shooting competitions, cannon demos? We can do that! We can also play music, shout, be thoroughly debauched and inebriated (or fill up on diet pepsi), just not while we use the cannons.

Heck, we could turn it into a big competition, having events where we negotiate the divison of turf and plunder, and if we can't come to a peaceful resolution, then we could battle it out. All in good nature, mind you.

And think of the cross-over potential. If you want to have a cannon tutorial, or a living history seminar, or something like that, you could introduce people to a pasttime they really enoy but otherwise would never have experienced.

I think this is a fine idea, and I think we should form a new thread discussing such a society, writing the articles, and such. Except I'm at work, and can't start right now. Who's with me? I mean, you know, enthuastically, not, you know, who's at work with me.

[Isabella]

This is what I was creating when I posted my interest about a Society for the Breathern

The "Breatheran" commit themselves to teaching the history of Piracy, as a historical society of people willing to use themselves as tools of living history to teach and communicate the idea of Piracy and Pirvateering during it's long history, in a fun, loose and friendly enviroment.

To communicate the ideas behind Piracy, it's standards, or lack there of, and teach the "fact from fiction" that Hollywood has painted on Pirates since the late 30's.

Pirates have long been creatures of misunderstanding. Why not wear the shoes of a seaman for a day, rigging sails and learning knots. Learn how to chart a destination, swing a sword, and swing from a deck to help plunder a ship?

If your day so be enjoyed, come and visit with us and become member of the crew, by participating in classes teaching sewing, history of the seas, discussion groups about pirates, their plunders, benders, and ends at a monthly or bi monthly meeting.

Since the nature of a piracy is rough and bawdy, the maturity of those participating must be 18 and over with the acception of their parent as a participant, and responsible for their minor.

Basically my idea is creating a "enactment" like that those that Civil War buffs do, but less structured. Striking an area that could create a pirate "city", with use of those becoming characters on the land who have created Historical Captains, first mates, and Quartermen/women as a crew, to interact with those that want to come in to learn some history, ask pirates questions, maybe even go on a treasure hunt.

Then on closed days, it would be all enactors gathereing together to created an enviroment for just them. Costumed the majority of the time, creating characters, different crews, working with prewritten story lines as in RPG, and lead by a main character working as basically a "Storyteller" for lack of better word. Creating battles, seeking treasure, stealing women, taking captives.

Would be interesting. :)

I love history, that's why I participated for many years with the Faires working with FOF and the Living History Society. And a large majority of them were not kid Friendly that I attended, even in California, because of the drinking, racey shows, and other things. I always considered Faire an adult place, as do many friends I know who have children. But then again, this all depends on where you go, who you hang with, and how you participate. One booth hawked "come try our juicy melons!" Double meaning yes, but a smart kid would get it.

I want to be historical, but fun. I want to be able to laugh communicate history, and teach while having a good time. That's the important matter when it comes to groups. Either their "all fun" or "no fun". I tried to participate in SCA and couldn't get into it. They took the fun out of it, sorry to those that did participate. If I wanted to participate in a historical pirate group the balance of historical and fun would have to remain equal. That's what keeps people coming, and enjoying themselves. :)

Izzy

[Isabella]

One other thing, that would be wonderful. :) Make sure those that have disabilities are always welcomed and allowed. My best friend found out that one Civil War Group near her, does not allow participants to be in chairs of any sort, even if they are in an inactive area of the Battle (i.e. they have a town on the oppsite side of their Battlefield preserved from 1862). I edited this, because of some confussion on how I put my words. :)

This is important. Participation should be for everyone, and open to everyone. :)

[hurricane]

I think you might find that some of the changes/additions going on at Pirates in Paradise may just fit some of the needs here - there's talk of an encampment at a very cool, historical venue with lots of chances to live and be pirates while still attending some of the more public events. It would accept the historical needs of those who like to pursue it and the more open interpretation of piracy at some of the more party oriented events.

More soon as we formulate and nail down some of the basics for this new opportunity down there.

[Isabella]

That's so cool. :) I can't wait to hear what you have in store! :) Looks like I might be spending winters in Florda.

I still would love to have something close to home, even if it were six people getting together to watch pirate movies. :)

[HarborMaster]

Perhaps a section of one day for target shooting Flintlocks.., and target shooting Cannons. As well as some loading techniques., "Making the Musket balls" .

Learning how to use the stars for guidance and how to properly use a Sexton., and a Compass.

A Pirate village is a must., with the vendors and "smiths" doing the trades there. A tavern or two yes. I would think that would suffice., perhaps a few story tellers and other assorted entertainment.

A Mock Trial with a hanging and perhaps a flogging for accomplices in front of the village. (Random Beheadings creates fear in captives). Gallows and "Stocks" for holding Prisoners should be towards the end of the village. (Keeps Captives from trying to Escape)

There are many things that can go into such an event without being mission critical., geared toward FUN.

Historical close but loose enough to cover a wide enough span of time that its not old enough to be a renn faire (they have those) and its not new enough to get past the revolution., shoot you could have English Red Coats guarding the gates (tickets and fare) . . . as well as patrolling .

Welcome to the "The New World"

HarborMaster

[Patrick Hand]

This is going to be a Looooong post... sorry.

Instead of stating "Renn Faire pirate" vs. "Authentic Pirate", I'll just list what I have....My pirate garb is a continuing project, but what I wear right now is...

a pair of Civil War brogans, with rubber soles glued on (they wore through the soles, so I fixed them.Not period, but they work untill I get a pair of straight lasted shoes.

an very old pair of grey wool ski socks, with cloth garters (need the garters or they fall down...)

black wool kinda slops with a "French fly" and patches... not an authentic cut, but I only had so much wool to make them outta.

cotton period cut shirt, very distressed with tea and india ink.... I'm working on a hand sewn linen shirt, but it's a pile of rectangles right now....

brown heavy cotton flaired skirt coat, with black trim (and when they arive... 60 big brass buttons)

a heavy leather baldrick, with a holster on the front, and boarding axe sheath on the back... not period, but looks "cool"

a black cavalier hat with black plumes a sculpy skull , and sculpy skull beads on one side. Not at all period but fun...

I also carry a .58 Enfield musket... WAY outta period, but it makes a loud "Boom" when we fire at other ships...

Something I'm starting to work on is more period pirate garb.... After playing on the Royaliste, the above garb is very impractical... for playing in a parade, it works great, and fits peoples idea of what a pirate looked like.

From what I can figure, period garb would be... lose canvas pants, chackered drop shoulder shirt, short wool coat, and a canvas hat, painted to waterproof it. (and of course...weapons)

But How many people will recognize that as a pirate? I know it will be more practicle and period.

So I will have 2 sets of garb.... My Hollywood pirate, for parades and such, and a period pirate for playing on the Royaliste and such....

Both will be fun. I enjoy the Hollywood pirate, and enjoy trying to do authentic...

I will just post this for now... but there have been a buncha post that I'll reply to later.......

[GlueBeard]

B L O O D Y . . . . . H E L L ! !

Methinks that old Will be right when he says, "Much ado 'bout nothing."

Pretendin' tuh be a pirate don't make ye a pirate nary a more than pretendin' tuh be authentic somehow talismanically imbues one with authenticity.

The scope of human history is such that people be people, and human beings be human beings. Pirates wore what they could steal or find or buy or make. Period.

Circumstances based in pure, unadulterated authenticity did not always afford them the luxury of stopping to count threads or to regard with disdain what their fellow mates wore on any given or overrated occasion.

Pirates were individuals. They always were. They still are. They varied widely in diversity, appearance, and garb. To suggest or intimate otherwise is nonsense.

The modern day media is full of inaccuracies. Do ye think that what media there was in days of old be the Gospel? Books and other works, whatever they may hold, do not hold a monopoly on the range of human experience and expression, and certainly not where pirates and piracy are concerned.

A pirate be a pirate, no matter what garb he or she wears. Aye. An actor or an imposter be just, exactly, no matter what they wear, nor when it was made, nor how it was crafted.

Rules, rules, rules. Mark me word, but they'll be the downfall of men, yet. Aye. Much ado 'bout nothing. And what is the gain? More confusion than 'ere nary a word wuz said. The more things change, the more they be uh remainin' the same.

If the books and the "histories" that were written be so accurate and definitive, then why are the vast majority of pirates unknown to us, even now?

And, wot be this strange affinity fer rules? Rules be antithetical to the life of a pirate. Yet, paradoxically, at least some pirates had rules they chose to live by. But, not all did, and not all shared the same rules. There always be exceptions. Some pirate always be makin' sure of it. Aye.

If those who worship authenticiy disfavor drama by the meledramatic frollickin' type, then blame that scurvy dawg we most affectionately be callin' Blackbeard. The whole bloomin' sea wuz his stage. He nary missed an opportunity one to entertain his guests and audience. Aye.

If authenticity be the order of the day, then volunteer to endure a genuine, AUTHENTIC hanging. Pirates were strung up by their necks, were they not? Or, meself, I be likin' tuh watch the authenticiy of a good old-fashioned and historically accurate keelhaulin'. No mere reenactment can ever capture the authenticity of the genuine article.

If ye sell yer soul to any society, then ye forego that which every pirate loves the most - their freedom. If one be slave to authenticity, then ye be a slave. Let yer yea be yea and yer nay, nay.

But, then again, wuz Captain Crunch a pirate? Well, wots wit the ways some of ye be uh dressin yerself these days, it makes me wonder. If the good Captain be uh readin' this thread, I s'pect that he probably would conclude that it is just plain too much work tuh be a pirate.

I be takin' sides wit the young ones on any occasion, though. Aye, they be bastards, fer sure, many times. But, that be the makins of a fine pirate, if'n ye be askin' me.

Pirates didn't what they were tuh satisfy any high-falootin' society of self-appointed historical aristocrats. They didn't shun the towns and the villages, their audience, simply because brats be runnin' underfoot. Aye, that be whut children do. It be their function every bit as much as whut a pirate do be their function.

Pirates, try though they may have, and they were miserably successful at failin', did not endure the hardships of their lives simply because they wanted to see if they could do it. The hardships, rather, accompanied the lives that each of them chose, or in some cases, were chosen for them.

Any history can be made boring or not worth the bother, if ya has an asshole fer an instructor. Aye.

If ye be wantin' tuh experience the life of a pirate, go and forcibly board a Coast Guard Cutter. Aye, ye be livin' the excitin' life, fer sure. No more firewood duty, fer sure.

If anyone durst be uh wantin', nay, be uh cravin' to pit themselves and their wiles against nature and the sea, well, they still be there uh waitin' on ye. They be as real as ever. Ye don't have a ship? An authentic pirate would steal one.

That, of course, carries with it the baggage known as "risk." A sword fight wit real swords carries risk that a foam rubber sword does not. However, ifn't ye not be trying to genuinely kill the bastard on the other end of yer blade, then why bother pullin' yer sword at all? Wot be authentic 'bout a half-hearted effort? Wot bizarre alchemy has transformed pirates into such a noble type?

Pirates thrived on convenience. Go into the woods and gather firewood, or steal it from the local convenience store that sells it? Now, wot would a real pirate do?

From where I be sittin', which is glued to me chair, I see little difference in one set of actors compared to another set of actors. Fer, when ye get right down tuh the gist 'O the matter, if it look like a duck, and walk like a duck, and quack like a duck, then whatever it may be, it not be a pirate. Rather, it be one all taken up wit affinity fer actin', and tryin' tuh convinced not just others, but themselves, that they somehow be more authentic or closer tuh bein' a pirate than the other ducks about them.

Now, whether feathers be ruffled or no, me point be this. If ye not be a pirate in yer heart, then ye be not a pirate at all. Pirates live and pirates die, but the essence and spirit of what it is to be a pirate lives on, and shares commonality with men, women, and children of all times and ages.

Mankind, through bits and pieces and down through history, has romanticized the life of pirates, just as we romanticize many things. But, that be what men do, just like children do whut children do.

Terrorists of today are, in essence, not pirate so much as they just be a bunch of assholes. To truly terrorize requires the expertise of children. How, then, can anyone entertain the thought that children be out of place at any event at which there be those professin' brotherhood with pirates?

One should never grow so old that they no longer believe that they can learn something from a child. At times, a child be the only one ye can trust. Who be yer real mates then, I asks ye, one and all?

Aye. Fer all of our pretense and claims, fer all of our studying this and that, fer all of amassing of educated ignorance, when all be said and done, not a one 'O use can ever even hope to compete with children, when it comes tuh decidin' where the real spirit of piracy do abide.

This be a strange ship the lot 'O ye be uh sailin' on. Fer sure, fer certain. Ye buys one another drinks, rather than just drink. Ye debate the merits of this aspect of piracy versus that aspect of the same. But, 'tis all fer naught, if'n yer ultimately loses yer sight of the essence of it all.

Pirates flew more than one set 'O colors. They often flew them 'neath false pretenses. They lied. They misled. They deceived. They be a treacherous lot, they be, Aye. Real, authentic bastards.

'Course, that's cuz they be human, just like you or I, or that lad o'er there who done be fell asleep and need a good kick in the chin.

I not be aware that it was forbidden for any who truly desired to become pirates. The path was open to any who be darin', willin', or foolish 'nough to choose it.

And as the sayin' be uh goin', the Gates of Hell be wide. Best, then, tuh steer the sea wit yerself at the helm, if'n ye are unable tuh cast yer lot wit those that ye trust yer fate and yer fortune with.

Aye.

Now. . . . .Where's me rum?!

[hurricane]

I must concur with some of GlueBeard's points.

First, as pirates, re-enactors or not, many if not most of us in these postings would already be dead in the Golden Age. Disease, lack of health care, injuries, malnutrition and a host of other maladies would have claimed us long ago. For those kid-haters out there, history shows that many pirates were those "children" and teens you profess to dislike so much at events... plus children love pirates folks - and why would you turn anyone away who has a love of what you're doing? Simply doesn't make sense. A big pirate scared of a little kid? Now that's authentic!

Second, has anyone tried to run an organization or an event of scale here? I've done two in my life from scratch - damned hard work and thankless. Plus, in a day of sue happy people, the insurance alone would kill an event with cannon practice and other "authentic" activities.

Plus, any group requires a structure, those that lead, those that follow, a bank account, IRS entanglements as a non-profit, and the inevitable politics. Hardly a hospitable environment for pirates to be in. Those we so admire in days of old would laugh their arses at us. I and my crewe don't follow anyone else's rules - we sail under our own articles and our own flag.

And I must agree that re-enactment is fine, if that's what you like. But it's not truly living the life - you're picking the things in that period that fit your liking - weapons, clothes, housing - but ignoring the others - like deadly diseases, primitive medicines and putrid standards of cleanliness and hygiene, others hunting you down. These are the things these people lived and died with every day - you can't recreate the conditions. Plus, it's impossible to truly step back in time when you drive a car, come home and whip up a microwave meal and watch your TV. So it's hardly a true reliving of history.

And finally, you're either a pirate or your not. It's that simple. Clothes and the right period hat doesn't make you a pirate. Quoting what little recorded history there is doesn't make you one and lording one's perceptions of what is accurate over those that take a more liberal tone with the subject to have some fun won't make you one either.

I for one won't be buying anyone a drink here tonight. Like GlueBeard I'll be swiggin' the real stuff... Huzzah!!!!

And I'd like to see a brave re-enactor step up to the gallows for a real swingin...

[Nigel]

Weh-heh-heh-hell!

WHOO!

Well said, master Sticky-Whiskers!

Hang up yer cel phones and listen, dammit!

Get a grip folks - don't kid yourselves about authenticity -here we are ONLINE in an INTERNET FORUM discussing historical authenticity! I'm sure there were a lot of pirates throughout history who were big internet users!

LOL

If this were historically accurate, we would be shouting at each other from the decks of our (most likely stolen*) ships, whilst stabbing and shootin' each other, especially anybody who dared say "Arrrgh!"

(*Don't get me wrong - I have the utmost respect for those who have gathered the resources to buy their own ships, and to experience the thrill, and the responsibility, of sailing yer own ship.

I agrees wit' Cap'n Hurricane (who, incidentally,led the historic mutiny from the SeaFair pirates, although he doesn't brag....much. Now that is a pirate's attitude - to mutiny from pirates who are getting too stuffy, rigid and structured! Ask him about it sometime, it's a great story.)

The spirit of bein' a pirate is individuality!. It's about flyin' yer own colors when ya doesn't like sailin' under others' rules!

What's with all the rules and regulations of bein' a pirate?

Rules be antithetical to the life of a pirate. Yet, paradoxically, at least some pirates had rules they chose to live by.

"Well, they're not really rules, more like...

guidelines, really."

Hey, someone was gonna say it sooner or later.

[the Royaliste]

:) I'm a wee bit curious as to seein' those of you willin' to be on the workn' end 'o the lines doin' the keelhaulin'............

[Nigel]

Well said mate!

I think what we all share in common is what pirates symbolize to us in today's world - a metaphor for Freedom.

Freedom be everything.

['Salem Bob']

Ahoy Gluebeard, Hurricane, and Nigel,

I'm not sure what you are driving at.

Are you suggesting that since we cannot be 100% authentic in our presentations, that we should not try? Or are you suggesting that any atttempt made at portraying a pirate is equally valid from a perspective of an accurate portrayal? (i.e. they fellow with the karate pants, sneakers, frilly blouse, modern cut vest, and the 'do rag' with a skull and bones garishly printed on it is as historically accurate or valid a visual representation as the fellow wearing the sailors slops, with a wool jacket with raw edge, petticoat breaches, and monmouth cap or touque?).

While pirates certainly bought or aquired items to wear and use, they would of neccessity be items available to them where and when they were - you wouldn't find an pirate of the 1720's wearing a pair of nikies, nor would you find them wearing a Greek chiton of the 3rd century BC - they would not have had access to those things (but I suppose one could make the incredibly weak argument 'if they had had them, they would have used them')

Maybe I am missing something, but I haven't seen the suggestion made here that people can't play at pirates in whatever venue they like, going by whatever conventions are acceptable in those venues - the "authenticity nazis" are not on the march trying to force people to conform to their ideas.

Or are you up in arms by the playful suggestion of Hawkyns and others of creating a piratical LARP with a basic set of rules for participation?

One (I hope) is not required to undergo a hanging to understand or convey nautical life in the 17th or 18th centuries. Suggesting people ought be hanged for expressing their opinions on the subject, or putting forward ideas of how they can play together is hardly helpful, and more condusive to creating arguments and strife. It's not like Hawkyns or others have suggested that if you can't tell the difference between a bowline or a reef knot (or you can't tie a proper one) that you can't play at being a pirate anymore.

That is all any of you (I'd say us, but I play at a privateer) are doing - thankfully none of us are real pirates, as you have pointed out.

[Nigel]

You have misunderstood what has been said.

What we are getting at is that not everybody is concerned with historical accuracy. Nor should historical accuracy be top priority for everybody.

You are not so naive as to believe anybody was actually suggesting a real hanging, are you? Come on. The allusion is ludicrous. We are saying that nobody is actually risking what pirates were in reality risking back then. Don't kid yourself.

We are merely pointing out that we, all of us, are merely actors and participants in a fantasy, gleaning the ascpects of being a pirate that suit our individual temperaments. One aspect is not more valid than another. It is logistically impossible to recreate the exact experience of being a 16th, 17th century pirate in the 21st century.

There is nothing wrong with "playing at being a pirate". Just ask the hunderds of people we have entertained in the past few months who love us, and constantly invite us to return, or to attend their other events. That is rewarding to me. So what if you don't think my velvet coat is authentic? I like it.

In all my piratical activities, I have not once actually had to tie a bowline or a reef knot, or even been asked what they were, and it has not hindred me one bit. Sure it is noble to know such things, but I don't care, nor should I. And it won't stop me from doing what I do, which is entertaining people.

Arguing over what is "authentic" is only good to a point. (Were you actually there, taking account of every single pirate and what they did or did not wear?) We never said those issues were not valid at all, just that they are only valid to some.

All of the speculation on authenticity is just that - speculation. Anything else is self-delusion.

Authenticiy is a noble undertaking. But it is not the be-all and end-all of being a pirate in today's world.

And yes, I am saying that you cannot be 100% accurate in your portayal of a pirate. In the end, we are here in the 21st century.

We are also pointing out to some of the newbies who have expressed confusion and apprehension at becoming involved in the pirate community, because of a fear of being humiliated over authenticity, that not all of us are overly concerned with such things, and to look for groups of like-minded individuals - we are out there. If you are not having fun, why do you do it? If you are trying to make others not have fun...why do you do it?

One more time - repeat after me -

"I am not really a pirate. I am an actor/re-enactor/entertainer."

It's okay.

['Salem Bob']

All of the speculation on authenticity is just that - speculation. Anything else is self-delusion...

One more time - repeat after me -

"I am not really a pirate. I am an actor/re-enactor/entertainer."...

It's okay.

To point 1. I respectfully disagree. There is so much evidence available as to what people wore, tools used, ect, from that era, both in extant objects in good condition, extant objects found in archaeological investigations (and so placed in a context of daily use in many cases), and a plethora of evidence in the form of good, solid artwork from the era in question, not to mention mountains of documentation running the gamut from lists of ships stores and cargo, to letters, diarys, books, ect, as to make, in my estimation, your assertion to that point almost an absurdity (the exception being the layman who has not investigated the subject, or the person who is interested, but has not come across the evidence. The individuals lacking the interest or drive to bother to find the evidence are a different case entirely).

To point 2. All the occupations you cite are not synonomous, they are different, with different objectives. *My* objection being the assumption - seemingly put forward by yourself here, I beg pardon if I am in error - that the pursuit of authenticity is automatically unfun, and that somehow people who pursue same are injuring others in some fashion.

Who on earth thinks they "really are" whatever they are reenacting, outside of the inhabitants of a mental institution? No one has made that assertion - it is a staw man errected to easily knock down - but it does not address the points I had previously made (makes a lovely smokescreen though).

Yes, people do their hobby trying to get different things out of it. (*My* only objection is when fantasy is put forward as historical fact) That said, the reason I have commented at this juncture is that I see a statement by Gluebeard and others that is a direct hostility to those with interests other than their own, almost as if said interest was damaging in some way to their hobby.

You did not address my point as to the validity of different impressions. Is the fellow I described in obviously incorrect and unauthentic costume as valid a historical presentation of the fellow who has gone to the bother to recreate authentic clothing? I am interested in seeing your response.

[Patrick Hand]

Hummm... let's see... right now I'm hand sewing a linen shirt that is as authentic as possible...

Why bother... no one cares......

Aaaah! but I do.... I'm making a set of more period garb for my own pleasure, My regular stuff is fantacy, and fun, so it does what I designed it to do.

Am I going to "force" anyone to do the same..... NO! (if I did, Capt Gary would have someone to really keelhaul....)

I think there is enough room for all of us to play

[hurricane]

Now thar be some broadsides like true pirates!

Come lads, I think yer all taking the subject matter too seriously. The thread has had many different lines of discussions... my most recent volley had to do with the desire to have a pirate gathering where only adults could be present which automatically disregards any youth who are equally intrigued with historic accuracy. And unless you do so out in the middle of an empty field, no municipality in their right mind is going to let anyone fire real cannon balls or flintlocks in a publicly accessible place. It's lawsuit city!!!!

And no one is saying that those seeking authentic representation are seeking folly. The point was made some pages ago that re-enactors often feel lost at events like Pirates in Paradise because their character is not prepared to do things like give tourists ordinary directions. They felt at a loss at this type of event.

And the point was equally made that events like these are more of the Hollywood representation because you're supposed to be entertaining the crowd not the gathered pirates. That means families, including small children, who may not get what you're doing as a re-enactor. I didn't even get one character who would be one guy the one day and another the next and wouldn't recognize me as such. What the hell is that?

There have been many posting assailing SCA events for their rigidity and rules. But when discussion arises about starting any festival from scratch, the same thing happens - suggestions of rigidity (no children) and rules (what you can and can't wear). Everyone knows that a t-shirt and Nikes is not authentic nor desirable. But if a member of the crowd wants to join in and play pirate for the day (a tourista pirate) and feels fine in it, what should we care? Should someone's joy be compromised because they don't have the bucks for a nice rig to wear? That's where the B.S. starts.

We all come from different walks of life. We all pursue different aspects of piracy. I like being a Hollywood pirate and I couldn't even begin to teach re-enactors the 22 years of improvisations and tricks of the trade working a crowd that ranges from infants to senior citizens, from women who want to jump your bones to their boyfriends that want to knock your lights out. And I'm sure they could never teach me the finer points of character development or whether a certain pair of boots were correct. There's no point to either attempt. My capacity is built to entertain not educate.

Celebrate the differences lads and you'll be surprised how well we all complement each other at these events. PiP was the perfect example. Died in the wool re-enactors that would shiver anyone's timbers stood side by side with the whacky Hollywood pirates and all had a great time doing it.

Viva la difference!!!! And have some rum, by gum!!!

[Nigel]

To point 1. I respectfully disagree. There is so much evidence available as to what people wore, tools used, .....

I concede. You win. Whatever. Don’t throw your shoulder out patting yourself on the back.

While you’re at it, lighten up a bit.

Yes, I addressed your point, you must have been so distraught you didn’t see it. No, the person in Nikes and a bandana is not as accurate (“less valid” is such a harsh phrase ); and no, he doesn’t need to be accurate. It is only "incorrect" if he is claiming to be historically accurate, which I have yet to see happen. To steal a quote from you (like a good pirate would ) "Who on earth" would think they are authentic in such garb?

Why berate others for not sharing your interest in authenticity? There is nothing wrong with not being interested in historical accuracy. It is not a sign of lazines, or a "lack of drive"; they just don't share your passion for authenticity.

It's okay.

There’s no need to be so brusque. You can count threads to your heart‘s content, nobody is stopping you.

I did not say that acting, reenacting and entertaining were synonymous. My comment was more of an “insert your hobby here”, and intended to say “stop taking yourselves so seriously.” (Case in point: do you make your living pirating? Can you really call it an “occupation”?)

What’s with the unfriendliness, mate? It’s a hobby, for Chrissakes! And a very interesting and rewarding one at that. Try not to be so rude as to scare off those who might potentially take an interest in the hobby, and/or history.

As I have said before, there is room for everybody. In fact, diverse interests on the wide-ranging subject of pirating make it a more well-rounded and potentially enjoyable experience for all. Nobody is trying to stop you from doing what satisfies you. By the same token, they are not less "valid” for wanting to pursue a more casual aspect of pirating.

I am not saying that the pursuit of authenticity is not fun.

Your attitude is not fun.

However, I am a benevolent person; since you begged, you are pardoned.

*Disclaimer: The preceding closing comment was made in jest. Don't go getting your knickers in a twist, folks!

Now, have a seat, and let me buy you a drink [a magnanimous gesture to further prove my indisputable benevolence. ]

How about some rum?

[Matty Bottles]

*Waves his hands in a placating manner*

Okay, okay, we all like pirates here, let's keep that in mind now....

[Nigel]

No worries, mate. I be intendin' nobody no harm. 'Tis all meant in good fun.

If'n I wuz serious, why would I ever use these emoticons...they're silly!

['Salem Bob']

Ahoy Nigel,

My point was initially merely this - the first round of unpleasantness or unfriendlyness was directed at those who were interested in authenticity, by those who are not - as if the very existance of the one group was an offence or affront to the other. At that point, I made my own post.

People throw about the term 'authenticitynazi' or 'stitchcounter' on this board fairly frequently, yet some of the most friendliest and helpful people on this board are also those most interested in authenticity. To date, by my observance, the only seeming beligerance (perhaps it was not, but it sure came across that way) was by those who seem to be against the very thought of researching something.

My intent is to reign in what I percieved as a faily wild, emotional outburst, not to cause a donnybrook. Of course if broadsides are to be exchanged, I can lay alongside as well as anyone alive, and fire with a will - I'd rather not.

I certainly would not decline your offer of a drink, if I could return the favour.

As an aside, and on a different topic - to those who say you can't be authentic because it is too expensive, I will wager the raw materials of my clothing were much cheaper than the outfits most hollywood pirates have for the role. If one can ply needle and thread, one can put together an authentic rig for less than $50.

If you aren't interested in such a pursuit, there is no shame in it - but don't make up poor excuses.

As to the commentary of the SCA being too strict - I never thought I would come across people who considered that anarchic organisation too strict - you do realise that there are *no* enforced minimum standards in the Society?