Love of Lack Thereof

[Christine]

Patrick - and WHY do the gays want to be married? I don't follow that whole debate at all, so the reason is probably right in front of my nose. Could it be because they want the tax and medical plan benefits that married couples have? Are they fighting for equality?

Or are they just being stupidly stubborn, when they could just be living together and making the most of it without broadcasting their revolutionary zeal?

I guess some of them want to be married just like some straight people want to be married. Yeah, it probably is about being treated like an equal. Personally, it doesn't matter to me. If they want to be as miserable in marriage like some straight people are, then more power to them. lol!

[Iron Bess]

Hmmm... I believe what the Gay community wants are just the same rights as any other hetero couple that makes a life time commitment.

The right to pass on property (aside from the Will problems and the taxes they ensue) Better insurance, medical benefits for couples, the right to acknowledge their affections in a public forum, rights that only married couples seem to have in lower costs for said insurance and such like. (Shrug) I have no problem with it but then I am not threatened by it either.

My one life-love relationship was outside the norm but then Hell, I have ALWAYS been outside the norm. (chuckle) I'll say this however, I am without question a one man lass. When I am in a relationship, there it stays. I do not stray nor do I window shop. I may admire from afar especially if it's in a kilt... but I have no need to touch. If I did I wouldn't still be in the relationship.

Jolly Rob and I met in 1969 and were together until his death in August of 1978.

He was a rambunctious, headstrong, fun loving Irishman that had a home in the states and in County Mayo Ireland and his time was divided between he two. It suited me fine as when he was gone.... it gave me a chance to miss him. (Shrug) Makes the heart grow fonder and all that. He always got 100% when he got home and he knew it. He was in the Film industry and was gone to locations on a regular basis. It worked well for us both.

Now, that being said... no, I had no illusion that he was without the occasional dalliance when gone for months at a time. He was who he was and why would I try to change him? So.... when he asked me to marry him I asked if he thought he could be faithful when he worked. He was honest as always and told me he wasn't sure. Have to give the man all credit due. So, I declined. As a friend I had no call to demand anything of him and sure as a wife... I expected more. So, it wasn't broke so we'd not fix it and go on as we were and stay just as happy. Bless him, he told me he’d ask again later when I had *Mellowed*.

When he died in '78 most of m'self died too. It took a long time to feel any life again but time passes and you begin to feel but it's never been the same flavor of life. I've dated, had one relationship that was sweeter then the others but.... (soft smile and a little head shaking...) I think I've done and had my share for this life time and I have NO regrets whatsoever.

I'd not exchange those few years with Rob for a life time with someone else.

It just wouldn’t be worth it. I could NEVER have been more fun!

[LongTom]

Could it be because they want the tax and medical plan benefits that married couples have?

When it is put in terms like this it always sounds so mercenary. That is kind of unfortunate.

I'm imagining if my son was in the hospital with, say, a broken leg from a skateboarding accident, and I was unable to get in to visit him because I lacked a state registration of my status as his dad. Or perhaps my wife was suffering from a life-threatening illness that my insurance normally would cover except for that same lack of a piece of paper ratifying our status as a couple. Or my parents disapproved of my choice of a wife, and intended in the event of my death to step in as next of kin and strip her of all the property that we had acquired during our relationship, in direct defiance of my wishes.

I'd be pretty pissed at a system that locked me out in that fashion while allowing my neighbors to enjoy what I was denied. And yet when it is put in terms like "they just want the benefits," it makes them sound somehow greedy. (not saying Phil intended it that way, but many who oppose gay marriage cast it in that sort of mercenary light.)

[Lady Alyx]

Christine, ah who needs a piece o paper anyways...lol! As Bess puts it...it is merely for the legalities of our society today as she notes...monies, property etc. There were no certificates back when peeps started out

[Misson]

My main concept is that everyone changes constantly - you never know when you or your partner will "fall out of love".

The modern notion of "love" is mostly mental. I think people "fall out of love" when they change what they focus upon. We are all combinations of traits, some perceived as good and some not to our partner (said perceptions frequently being different than other people's perceptions of our traits...or even our own.) When you change your focus from the things you liked to the things you don't, you "fall out of love." In fact, the things I've seen (and experienced) indicate to me that it's often just a perceptive shift, often on the part of one of the two partners.

This reminded me of a concept put forth when I was reading on the topic of relationships about what attracts us to another person. The author suggested that it is often how another person complements our traits that makes them initially appealing. Strangely enough, when the relationship becomes more secure and committed, those same traits often irritate us. So we try to mold our partner to make them "more like us." If we succeed at modifying their behavior, we essentially remove all the traits that attracted us in the first place. Thus, our perception of them shifts and we find we have "fallen out of love." I thought it was an interesting idea, if not always true from my observations.

[PyratePhil]

Could it be because they want the tax and medical plan benefits that married couples have?

When it is put in terms like this it always sounds so mercenary. That is kind of unfortunate.

...

And yet when it is put in terms like "they just want the benefits," it makes them sound somehow greedy. (not saying Phil intended it that way, but many who oppose gay marriage cast it in that sort of mercenary light.)

As you said, I didn't intend it that way - Hell's bells, I lived in Greenwich Village for 7 years!

I was just echoing what I often hear in the discussions about gay marriage. And I agree - that's a big weapon for the "opposition".

Me? I couldn't care less what they do - if they want the ties that bind, so be it.

Bess, I understand and appreciate what you're saying. I had a similar relationship for about 5 years - when it ended (due to circumstances seemingly beyond my control), I said "That's it - never again". And yes, a big part of me died that day.

Misson - makes sense. We seek to complete the circle; once we complete it, we go off in search for something else and forget the feeling of completion.

Which is a shame, really, because I think most people have never and will never experience true love. If it lasts just for five minutes, I'd rather have felt it than lived a lifetime of lust and satyrism.

[Misson]

Misson - makes sense. We seek to complete the circle; once we complete it, we go off in search for something else and forget the feeling of completion.

Which is a shame, really, because I think most people have never and will never experience true love. If it lasts just for five minutes, I'd rather have felt it than lived a lifetime of lust and satyrism.

Perhaps what we think of or call "true love" is just a rounding out of our own lacking personality traits? Dunno....I married someone nearly my opposite and found myself on that fool's errand of trying to make them "more like me." So now it seems (purely logically speaking) that someone "more like me" might be a better choice. Or am I just trading one set of problems in for another? (Forgive me, I've had a snootful and it is in these rare occasions that what I perceive as emotions tend to bustle to the fore. Rare...rare... Perhaps I'll edit this on the morrow... )

"Love is an emotional thing, and whatever is emotional is opposed to that true cold reason which I place above all things. I should never marry myself, lest I bias my judgment." -Sherlock Holmes

[Red-Handed Jill]

From what I've observed (and experienced), the best matches seem to be between two people who are fairly similar (at least in values), but are different in ways that each appreciates about the other.

[Christine]

From what I've observed (and experienced), the best matches seem to be between two people who are fairly similar (at least in values), but are different in ways that each appreciates about the other.

Yup, exactly! And it really comes down to being happy with each other. You can love someone, but not be happy in the relationship/marriage/whatever and that's what happening with my aunt and uncle. If you can have love for a person and they have love for you as well, but both are happy at the same time then you got something special.

[PyratePhil]

...or you can just get a goldfish.

Love it as long as you both shall live...

...then when he croaks, flush that puppy and get a new one!

Misson- it's only fairly late in life that I've learned not to try to change people. It was (and still is) a Taoist principle that I knew of long, long ago but thought that it didn't apply to ME.

Riiiight...

They say "opposites attract" - that might very well be, but what happens when the bloom is off the rose? Seven-year itches, separations, and divorces. Likewise, two similar personalities shoved together could lead to insanity.

"They" also say that the longer you're with one person, the more your thoughts and, oddly enough, facial features become similar.

This might explain Aunt Agatha's mustache, though...

That being said, I think more couplings are like Oscar and Felix than Chang and Eng.

PS: Holmes is a two-faced schmuck. What about "THAT woman" - Irene Adler?

Talk yourself out of THAT one, Holmes old chum!

[Misson]

You're upset with a fictional character because he's too capricious...and thus realistic?

[Rumba Rue]

Well after reading the posts so far, I think I've got it made!

I met Boats when he joined the pirate group I belonged to at the time. I was still married to a guy who could have cared less about me. So after 13 years with the twit, I ended it. However it was a very ugly, ugly, messy divorce. He threw in that I was even faking my back problems even though he knew I wasn't. He had his lawyer even send me to be tested to see if I was capable of working a regular job---I deliberately made the test to show that I was dumb as a rock...he even had his lawyer send me to a joke of a doctor to try and retract my back situation--the doctor lied by the way for the benefit of my ex.

Anyway, I knew what I wanted in a guy and surprisingly Boats fit the bill and I fit his. I accept him with all his quirks and strange ways he does things, and he accepts mine.Though I admit some of the things he does is really kind of wacky...don't ask. We don't fight (besides it solves nothing) and we talk about our feelings about a subject and we help each other out. When it comes to computer stuff, he's the tech and knows the system, I'm the one that knows how to operate buttons and such at sites. So it works out well. We share common interests and interests that differ from each other.

We laugh a lot, enjoy each other's company and we've been together for 13 years....the best 13 years I've ever had with someone.

I know for an absolute fact, there's not another guy out there that would treat me with the respect and love that Boats has given me.

We trust each other impeccably and he knows when I go to visit our friend Bob, we aren't having sex, we just talk and watch movies and such. I trust him and I know he wouldn't give me up for another woman. Now that's true trust between two people.

We fit well together and we're happy and that's what really counts!

[Iron Bess]

Yeah....

knowing Boats I can say that he's a special guy alright.

[LongTom]

I don't think that true love necessarily precludes being periodically frustrated with, angry at, or otherwise upset by one's relationship counterpart. "Counterpart" meaning the other person in a particular relationship pair, not necessarily one's spouse or spouse-equivalent. There can be multiple such relationship pairs, and you can experience "true love" in each of them. There are three people in the world that I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I would die for, or kill for, if necessary: my wife and my kids. I'd say that comes pretty close to true love.

That doesn't mean that I don't get fed up with one of them every so often. But even in the teeth of the upset I am aware that I love them. I think a lot of people forget to remember that in the moment, and then the moments start piling up, and then they forget entirely.

I also think a lot of people mistake the initial infatuation phase as being "true love" when it's really just the introductory material in a much longer great story. I don't believe we are meant to feel that sticky-sweet goofy about someone for fifty years running. Frankly, our adrenals couldn't take the strain. But when that feeling starts to wear off, many people panic, and start looking for that "fix" again, even if it means with somebody else.

[Red Cat Jenny]

Every person is as different and unique as their own fingerprint, so also is they way they love and the way they require to be loved. This is constant as if it were etched in granite on one level, but changes on another with age and experience. Mostly the requirement that cannot be either pre-defined or forseen changes with age.

As I see it generally at 24 and again at 35. Look back on past relationships and you may agree.

The second requirement is really more understanding of self and ones level of acceptance of things. Which comes with experience whether romantic or otherwise.

This ability to love/be loved can also vary depending on the depth of openness and vulnerability a person will allow at any given time in their own life due to past or even current experiences.

The true ability to love and accept love comes with the true honesty and understanding of one's own self. The things we only admit to ourselves alone and sometimes never share. The deepest things locked within the connection of heart and soul.

People are like puzzle pieces in a way, there may be a few that fit well enough..but if one is favored enough to find the piece which fits so perfectly to make one whole... this is a rareified thing and they will just know.

[LongTom]

From what I've observed (and experienced), the best matches seem to be between two people who are fairly similar (at least in values), but are different in ways that each appreciates about the other.

I agree with this idea. If you are different in something like how you deal with money or how you discipline your kids, the difference is irreconcilable and one (or both) of you will feel like your principles are seriously compromised. You need to be in alignment on the "deal-breakers."

If it is something like one of you is creative and artistic while the other is logical and scientific, it doesn't involve the same sort of letting go of something fundamental. Perhaps it makes you more of a complementary team to tackle the world, since you bring more skills together than separately.

If you are too much alike, on the other hand... everybody has things that they dislike about themselves, and you will dislike that same trait in your partner, only magnified.

[Red-Handed Jill]

I don't think that true love necessarily precludes being periodically frustrated with, angry at, or otherwise upset by one's relationship counterpart. "Counterpart" meaning the other person in a particular relationship pair, not necessarily one's spouse or spouse-equivalent. There can be multiple such relationship pairs, and you can experience "true love" in each of them. There are three people in the world that I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I would die for, or kill for, if necessary: my wife and my kids. I'd say that comes pretty close to true love.

That doesn't mean that I don't get fed up with one of them every so often. But even in the teeth of the upset I am aware that I love them. I think a lot of people forget to remember that in the moment, and then the moments start piling up, and then they forget entirely.

I also think a lot of people mistake the initial infatuation phase as being "true love" when it's really just the introductory material in a much longer great story. I don't believe we are meant to feel that sticky-sweet goofy about someone for fifty years running. Frankly, our adrenals couldn't take the strain. But when that feeling starts to wear off, many people panic, and start looking for that "fix" again, even if it means with somebody else.

A lot of people are fooled by books and the media into thinking that the infatuation phase is supposed to last forever and believe the relationship is over when that phase naturally ends. For me, the true love part starts after that initial stage, when you see the other person clearly and still love them, even though it has transmuted itself from the "almost-physically-hurts-when-he's-not-here" stage to the "warm fuzzies" stage.

I'm recalling a scene from - oddly enough - the series "Twin Peaks" when two of the characters are discussing whether or not they are in love with their respective girlfriends. They were discussing how it intensified their feelings and one of them said something like it made him feel EVERYTHING more intensely. Just because you love someone doesn't mean you can't be mad as hell at them.

[oderlesseye]

Comic relief from this serious subject...yet still on topic

[Red Cat Jenny]

That be some quality wench * snicker *

Pirate speed dating * oh stop!! hehe *

By the time he got to "We just grab whatever we can outta the sea and...rub it on our wounds" I was laughing too hard to remember what this topic was about. Thankee Odorless...oogh my cheeks hurt...

[Rumba Rue]

Arrrrrrgggghhhhhh...............................................................

............slap!

[depinux]

In my current confusion, I figured I would come here for some advice, or if nothing to vent.

Wednesday night I was at a Halloween party and I got fairly intoxicated, I was keeping my eye on my friends girlfriend because when she drinks she gets overly friendly, lets just put it that way. Now I learn from her early on that she broke up with her boyfriend, Matt, and since Matt and I had a fallout a month or so ago, I didn't feel that I was friends with him anymore so, as bad as it sounds, she was fair game, lol.

Anyways, we get to talking back in my room and I guess she actually likes me, yadda yadda yadda, we talk for half an hour, then go back to the party because I only came back to go to the bathroom cause the line was long. Long story short, I walk her back to her apartment, she gives me back my coat I offered and before the stairwell to her 3rd story apartment, I guess she leans in and says 'is this awkward for you?' I say a little, and think about the consequences that could result, but go in for the kiss. It's been something I've wanted to do for nearly two years of knowing her and now that they're broken up, and Matt is more of an acquaintance now, I saw it as OK.

I learned yesterday that she told Matt drunkenly what happened so I can't help but think I was perhaps used to make Matt angry or jealous or something? I would like to talk to her about it, but I guess she's gone back home to Maine for the weekend, only time will tell how this is going to end.

Thanks for letting me vent, ha ha.

[Misson]

People on the rebound... *shudder* Give 'em a wide berth.

[Jacky Tar]

Comic relief from this serious subject...yet still on topic

Another, 'Ax a Pirate', bout makin' little pirates.

[Ransom]

Let's go do some pilaging — in a very loving way!

Love the hand gestures!

[LongTom]

Don't trust anything that happens on Halloween night. Or when either of you are drunk. Or when either of you are on the rebound. All three at once...all bets are off.

Offhand, it doesn't sound like she was designing to use you to make Matt jealous up front. Otherwise she would have been more public with her attentions at the party. (If you want a story to get around, waiting until nobody else is around to see would be counterproductive.) So by that token her friendliness with you was not faked (allowing for the alcohol).

However it sounds like she is still not over him, and either decided to go for the jealous reaction on the spur of the moment, or maybe just was a little fuzzy in the moment (you did say she told him while she was drunk, right?)

I have to ask, if this person is known to get overly friendly when tipsy, isn't that a bit of a red flag to you? (I.e., when you are the boyfriend and she's getting friendly with somebody else?)

Sorry you're going through such a string of bad luck. I gotta admit, it's a little better than getting shot down or ignored, though.