Coastie04

I just heard about this on the radio. Apparently there was also some remains of the ship itself. Beyond the 'treasure', I wonder what artifacts are going to be revealed! Hopefully the diamond mining company doesn't just grab the gold and go.

Coastie

Just a comment on a different part of your site (which is great, by the way). For the historic tall ship replicas page, you list the Batavia as an 18th Century East Indiaman, whereas she's a 17th Century vessel. You correctly mention that she was built in 1628 in the description, though.

Coastie

Eagle does have a stripe on her bow, though that's only been since 1976. Before that, she was the more traditional plain white. As a German vessel, Eagle was named Horst Wessel. During WWII, she is credited with shooting down an allied plane. After the war, the U.S. Coast Guard took the vessel as a war prize and turned her into a training vessel for Coast Guard Academy cadets, a job she still performs today. She has a few sister ships that were doled 0out to various countries after WWII, and most of them still sail as training vessels. Her sister ships are:

Gorch Fock, which sailed under USSR and Ukranian flags after the war, and is now owned by a private company and has returned to Germany, though it is unknown if she'll sail again.

Mircea, was built for Romania. Both the Gorch Fock and the Mircea are about 7m shorter than Eagle, but were built in the same yard and along very similar lines. Essentially, later designs were improved by lengthening the hull and adding a more powerful engine. Mircea is still sailing the world's oceans today.

Sagres III, was given to Brazil after WWII and later purchased by the Portugese Navy and is still sailing today.

Herbert Norkus was unfinished, as she was launched early to clear the slipway for submarines. At the end of the war, she was filled with gas grenades and scuttled in the harbor. Her yards, which had been prepared, were later used for the Gorch Fock II, built in 1958.

Gorch Fock II was built to replace Germany's training vessels, which were all taken as war reparations. She was built along the same lines as the originals, but modified slightly due to the sinking of Pamir in 1957. She still sails today.

Other vessels built as traininsh ships have been significantly influenced by this extremely effective design, including Gloria (Columbia, built in 1967), Guayas (Equador, built in 1976), Simón Bolívar (Venezuela, built in 1979), and Cuauhtémoc (Mexico, built in 1982).

Coastie

I am told that on the day & education sails we are often short handed and you do three times as much work. I'll let you know.

This is often true with tall ships. When I was learning to sail the Lady Washington, right after the 4th of July activities (and still my first week aboard - with no training previously), most of the crew left. We had 4 people onboard, including the Captain! There was a lot of running around, but it was also a great way to learn the lines...FAST! A 'full' crew is 12, and there is usually at least 8, so we were down to1/2 to 1/3 strength. It was a lot of fun, though.

Coastie

Make sure your tetanus shots are up to date...

Coastie

Well, I've been bent over here in Juneau. The gas prices are 'reasonable' at about 3.60-4.00 (depending on the station). However, we just had a large avalanche that knocked down about a mile and a half of transmittion line from our main hydro plant. They don't think they'll even be able to get crews out there for 2-3 weeks due to the high avalanche danger, and expect it to be 2-3 months until repairs are completed. Thus, they're using diesel generators for the entire town's power, and electricity prices are going to be going up 400-500% from the current (no pun intended) 11 cents/kw-hour to around 50 cents/kw-hour. They politicians are trying to get us declared as a natural disaster area for state and federal funding to help offset the price increase. Of course, that's not including the price increase of absolutely everything else here due to fuel prices. Everything is either barged up or flown in, since there are no roads connecting us to the rest of the country.

Coastie

Also, just another possibility. Are the 'verbal articles' possibly akin to 'verbal orders'? Something along the lines of "don't hold correspondence with that particular prisoner". Were saying they were in the articles possibly a 'slang' way of saying that the company agreed verbally on some sort of rule, or an order by the Captain that the majority agreed with? Just another opinion on what exactly the articles were...more of guidelines, right?

Sorry to use Hollywood to make a historical point. It's not that I buy in to it, but it makes my point so eloquently. In other words, how often were the articles able to be manipulated by the Captain, or some 'sea lawyer' in the crew? Look at the United States 'articles' (aka Constitution). Everybody has a different opinion on what they actually mean, and argue the points. Could there have been the same kind of grey area in pirate articles? Just a thought to ponder tonight.

Coastie

Also, anyone remember this one a few years back? It almost broke my heart seeing these pictures. The worst picture I can't seem to find anymore, but it had waves breaking over the whole boat and I figured she'd be a total loss. Luckily, she's back sailing again.

Coastie

Here's an interesting link about notorious ship accidents going as far back as the 1588 sinking of the Spanish Armada by weather, navigation error, and Drake.

Below is a during and after picture of the Superferry 14, which burned with the loss of about 100 lives (though over 750 were saved) in 2004.

Coastie

That was a sad sinking, but not one that was unpredictable. The stability of that ship, along with the hatch design, securing the gun ports/freeing ports (allowing water to flow off the deck) closed, not having watertight bulkheads, and adding to the rigging over the years made it a stability and flooding hazard. The boat was originally a schooner, and through the years the masts were lengthened, more square sails (along with the accompanying rigging, yards, etc) were added, and the ship became more top-heavy, thus less stable and more prone to higher degrees of heel. Add to the this the fact that the main hatch was of a cargo design that was originally meant to be kept battoned down throughout the course of an entire voyage. They were often partially opened on the Marques, even during fairly rough seas. Additionally, the gunports, which were used as freeing ports were secured to prevent damage from the doors swinging open on the lee side (which would allow the water to run off the deck). Although it's a tragic loss, both the ship and the lives lost, it was not unforseeable. Much like the Pride of Baltimore, it was known by many to be an 'unsafe' boat. According to Stan Hugil, a famous shantyman and Cape Horn sailor after refusing an invitation to sail on the Marques, "I wouldn't get aboard her even at the dock." Apparently, that comment was followed by a colorful opinion of the main hatch, the freeboard, the deck house, and the rig. Unfortunately, many sail trainees don't have the experience or knowledge required to recognize unsafe conditions. I know I didn't have a clue when I started sailing on the Adventuress or Lady Washington in my younger years. Although what I now know reinforces my faith in those two vessels, I definitely take a closer look at safety before sailing on an unknown boat. The classic 'it won't happen to me' is wrong when sailing, especially on traditional boats. They can be very dangerous, though at the same time, I encourage anyone who is able to sign on to a tall ship. It was a great life changing experience for me. The only word of caution I'd give is to always think about safety and 'what you would do if...', and learn as much about the safety systems onboard.

Coastie

At least something has been learned about operating vessels in ice. The Explorer sank last year in Antarctica without loss of life.

I'm only surprised that a "fist sized hole" caused by ice sank the boat. It didn't have a double hull, which could have saved the boat. Also, watertight bulkheads should have contained the flooding enough for the ship to limp or be towed back to port. But, at least there were no casualties.

Coastie

The wreck of the Princess Sophia is a tragic one as well. All 350+ peoplw onboard perished (an exact number is not known since it was one of the last boat of the season out of Skagway for miners and such and it is likely that they overfilled the ship) after being stuck on the reef for nearly 40 hours. There were other vessels in the area that offered to evacuate the passengers, but the Captain refused their offers. Then the weather got worse, evacuation was impossible, and the ship pounded itself on the reef and finally sank during the night. Below is what was left of the ship during the recovery of the bodies.

Obviously, the mast sticking up on the right side of the photo is the Princess Sophia.

Since the ship sank on October 25, 1918, there was really very little news about the sinking, since about two weeks later, an armistice was signed in Europe ending the fighting in WWI.

Coastie

I've always been fascinated with naval architecture, and the Titanic is a great study of it. Additionally, there were many maritime regulations still in effect that are a direct result of the sinking. The most notorious is, of course, having enough life boats/rafts for every person on board. This was part of the first SOLAS (Safety of Life at Sea) requirements, which also included continuously manned radio watches, other mandatory safety equipments, and certain emergency proceedures. These requirements have been updated (due to new technology and better practices being developed) and are still in use today. These practices have surely saved many more people than died on the Titanic, and a glaring example of this is the sinking of cruise ship Sea Diamond off Greece about a year ago after it ran aground. Only two people died, while about 1600 were rescued.

Coastie

I don't have any specific evidence from the period, but I've visited HMS Victory (OOP, but at least gives you a sense of any naval standard) and the carriages are painted spar (or thereabouts-kind of a yellow ochre, as are the 'yellow' parts of the hull). Additionally, I looked online a bit and found that the HMS Unicorn's (launched 1824) carriages are unpainted, and the HMS Trincomalee's (launched 1817) are red below deck and black on the weather decks. Sorry I don't have any idea what color they were back then, as it's easy to paint them to look pretty now.

Coastie

Yes, it is in my dreams. But what would the world be without dreams?

Coastie

Falconet

Definitely far beyond my price range, but if anyone here has a spare $75,000 - SEND IT TO ME! Or, buy yourself a fine falconet.

Coastie

That small one actually looks more dangerous than a full sized cannon, that's been loaded by competent people, for a kid to fire. Primarily, there is a greater chance of them stepping in front of the barrel. Does anyone have a simple signal cannon using a 12 guage blank black powder shell? You just have to pull a lanyard, there's very little or no recoil, depending on the type of carriage/stand, and it makes a loud noise and lots of smoke. Sure, it's not exactly p.c., but it doesn't look as much like a gun (hopefully mellowing out some of those radical parents), the direction of fire can be controlled better than either the small cannon or a small arm, and there's no problem with the pan flash/fuse causing injury. Furthermore, when I was at the Coast Guard Academy, they fired one off twice a day. I don't know how old the cannon itself was, but it rarely even saw maintenance beyond a wipedown and was in use for at least 5 years (probably much longer, and it is still probably the same cannon today). The stress from blanks in large barrels is minimal, so it's probably in almost the same condition as when it was made. It was similar to the picture below, but nickel plated steel instead of brass.

Coastie

In an earlier post, Queen Mary's Barge was mentioned for being a period example, but no pictures were available. The following images are from the website below:

http://nationalhistoricships.org.uk/index....vref/1860/pic/1

The surprising thing is that this barge was last used as recently as 1919! It does look a little different than the 18th century longboats. The first thing I though of when seeing this was viking longboats. Might there be some influence, or am I just seeing things? Either way, it originally had 10 oars and a green and gold canopy (though that was probably just in the royal barges and possibly for a couple special occasions such as funerals).

Coastie

As for the reward, one of my favorite memories from early on was firing a cannon. I was a little cub scout, and tagged along with my brother's boy scout troup for a memorial day service at a cemetery. Well, I was way to young to carry a flag, but they let me fire the cannon! It was just a standard 12-guage blank signal cannon, and it surprised me enough to put me on my rear when it did go off, but that probably was my first experience on the long road to becoming a dedicated pirate. The games, however, are a great idea. Good luck with it; I wish I could be there to help out, though unless someone can spot me the airfare from Alaska, I won't be able to make it this year.

Coastie

The Victory's sail is hanging as it would have from a yard. The top is the top, bottom the bottom, etc. The vertical lines are seams in the sail, while the horizontal lines are reef points. For the Lady's sail, it's being held up in much the same way, though the far side has both the top and bottom corners held almost together. The hole in the sail lets water drain out of it when it's set beneath the bow sprit. Also an interesting point to note, the reef lines are not 'horizontal' as in the Victory's tops'l. Instead, the sail is reefed diagonally, since the yard is often set cocked to lend support to the entire rig. Thus, the lower side of the sail would be reefed up to prevent it from creating drag in the water.

Thank you both for the info about using sails as shelters, though I still think they might have been used only old, worn out sails, or improvised tents with other materials before using a good sail. However, I may very well be wrong on the matter as well.

Coastie

The historian in me is slightly pained, as I don't have any of the original sources to confirm my suspicions here. The only book I had on hand was Ashley's, and it is from the tail end of the age of sail. So, I don't know how much to trust it for earlier methods of sail making (and thus presumably tent making).

Another thought I had recently was if they really used sails as tents. Is there any evidence of this? I know it's one of those 'logical' conclusions, but also it is important to remember that at this time, the sails were extremely important to keep in good shape. They were the primary means of propulsion for the ship. It is possible that spare canvas (which they would undoubtably have to repair sails) was sewn loosly into tents as a temporary measure, and then they were taken apart and stored for use in sails again. Even battle-torn sails were often kept to patch other sails, make chafing gear, etc. It just seems to me that sails that are in good enough condition to make tents might be too valuable to use as tents. They could be if it's a shipwreck situation, but under normal circumstances it would be like a ship using fuel today to light a fire on shore. Sure, it's possible (maybe assume gasoline for this example), but not the best use of the fuel unless the boat is already wrecked on the rocks and it's a fight for survival.

Just wanted to share this new idea. Regardless, if tents were made, they would probably use many of the sailmaking stitches, techniques, et al. because of the skills available on the crew.

Coastie

Two thoughts here, expecially about the sail construction. First, is there anyone who's been able to take a close look at HMS Victory's fore tops'l? I know it's OOP, but it might give some insight to the construction of sails back then, especially with regard to the stitches used.

Also, the Lady Washington is currently having a new set of sails made. Sure, again she's slightly out of period (though closer than Victory), being originally built in the 1750's, but again it might provide some insight. They are being made without any metal in them for the sake of historical accuracy.

The edges of the sails were “roped” by hand with thread, and each eyelet, where the rigging will attach, was punched out and stiff “donuts” of thread were meticulously sewn in with alternating long and short stitches. Each one takes hours to complete.

The Lady's new sprits'l

(from )http://www.thedailyworld.com/articles/2008...ews/01news.txt)

I have personally made small versions of what I believe is being described out of some small tarred hemp line. I got the idea from The Ashley Book of Knots. Essentially, a few loops are made from the line in the size of the grommet, and then the line is whipped around, making a fairly sturdy rope grommet. This can then be sewn into the sail. However, my personal opinion on the matter, is that metal would make an even sturdier grommet, and may have been a method used later on. As anyone who's made a monkey's fist knows, though the knot can be made without anything solid in the middle, a lead weight, marble, etc. gives this knot a finer shape (usually) and can increase its effectiveness as a heaving line.

Ashley's also describes "the common grommet" on page 470 (knots 2864-5) as made out of a single strand of rope. He also mentions "in tarred hemp, grommets are made of small stuff, the full size. Eyelet Hole Grommets in sails are of marline or small wire. The length of strand required for a grommet is three times the circumference of the grommet plus six times the round of the rope". He also mentions wire rope grommets and cable grommets, but these are obviously OOP. However, as the book was originally copywrighted in 1944, it's interesting to not that the skill of making rope grommets was still around, a sign that not every grommet in the early 20th Century ships was metal. On p. 69, Ashley states "In making eyelets for cringes and reef points, a hole is stuck through the canvas with a stabber, and grommets are laid around the holes for reinforcement. These are closely stitched over and fidded out."

There was no Double Round Seam Stitch mentioned in the glossary or index, but as stated, it may have taken a different name. In summary, I believe that metal MAY have been used, especially in the larger ships, within sewn grommets. However, there were undoubtedly ships that didn't have that kind of budget or resources, so the rope grommets would be accurate, and probably more common.

Coastie

normal people can become very sadistic simply by play-acting as prison guards and very subservient by play-acting as prisoners.

Very true. This is something that is often overlooked in history. Lately, there's been a big movement against Columbus due to his harsh treatment of natives. He was coming from Spain during the Inquisition, and had the ultimate authority figure, God, to deal with. He sailed into a land of heathens and had to maintain control. Practically enslaving the population and forcing 'the true religion' into their lives could be considered not only moral, but possibly even charitable. It's definitely a very interesting subject to discuss.

Coastie

I've thought about this subject often. Even when looking at today, instead of past or future times, perceptions color how we see things. Many people can look at the same situation and have completely different views about it. For example, a shooting in self defense. One person might applaud the shooter for exercising his right to defend his life, another might be disgusted at the senseless violence, and yet a third be sorry for either party, or both, for being in that situation. So it is with history.

A few years back, I had the chance to meet an author who was writing about sailors' experiences in WWII. One of the first things he said was that he learned very early on not to judge people's actions and decisions. A combination of 'fog of war', personal morals, standard proceedures, and human emotion/shock can cause people to make decisions that don't seem logical later on. Especially if you know that the result is disasterous. A great example of this is the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor. There was a working RADAR that saw the incoming aircraft and could have given some warning. However, they didn't raise the alarm because they thought the new technology was defective yet again. 20/20 hindsight shows that that decision was a mistake, but people can't be blamed for making it.

Some great historical points have been brought up in this post about perceptions, and I agree that in order to portray the past accurately, we need to be willing to be 'politically incorrect'. Imagine in 200 years trying to reinact the 1960's without racism!

And moving on with the topic, this also covers a topic that's been brought up before about period correctness. Some people (and I used to be one) argue about modifying certain items to be quasi-historical. Even if the modifications were well within the technology of the time, they might not have ever done something that seems obvious. I've heard this debate a lot about weapons and clothing, often on how they were carried, used, etc. A modern rifle sling would probably have been very usefull, and can be made out of brass and leather, but certain design concepts just weren't around back then. Although it might seem a very logical step for us, if it was never seen back then, it might be perceived as 'too radical' or just plain wrong. One example could be the breach loading cannon. It seems like the way to go, especially since all modern weapons are breach loading, and they have examples from the Wasa. However, most cannons were muzzle-loaders in the 18th C. for a number of reasons. So, even if the technology to do something is there, it may not be accurate.

Just my little rant on the subject.

Coastie

Mission,

Nice research! However, from a my seagoing experience, the best place for the surgeon might be the orlop deck (as close to amidship as possible, on both axis) As Allison points out, that area is relatively safe from direct hits, thus keeping the surgeon and wounded safe from the battle. Also, it would be out of the way of the guns and other chaos of fighting the ship. The lower deck, as long as it was closer to the midship portion from fore-aft, would have the least amount of motion. If you ever get the chance to be on any ship in rough weather, you noticably feel the difference of just a deck or two in height. Of course, the same pendulum effect happens in the bow or stern (especially the bow, as the center of gravity is usually slightly aft), so I don't know why it was in the bow of the vessel that Brown describes, unless it's just a matter of where there's room. As for light, I guess it's just a matter of good lighting or a steadier and safer working platform. Just my two cents on the matter.

Coastie