Mission

Yes, that is cool. You know, I heard the other day that many of those in Generation Z (or whatever we have processing through the schools these days) cannot read an analog clock. In a way I guess that's shocking, but in another...so what? There's a digital clock in darned near every electric device that's sold. I was watching Tin Man this weekend. It had a bit of a Steampunk air about it. (Although as a movie I thought the acting was a bit weak. And the interview in the extras with Zooey -whom I generally like- was comically awful. She sounded really flaky.)

Well if we're going to have causes (which is a neat idea), I will buy the stuff for the Salmagundi as mentioned elsewhere and would like the money to go to Friends of Fort Courag- er, Taylor. They help sponsor PiP and keep up the fort and so forth.

Actually, I have to get a car this time. I'm flying into Miasmi. (I have long noticed that when the weather is crappy in Miami, it is nice in the Keys when I visit and vice versa. I know this is a specious observation, but it has long been my experience.)

Do we have any info on the structure of period coffins? I suppose they were just boxes at sea...it's not like you'd have the time or desire to built something really fancy to feed the fish. I do have some info mentioning coffins and burial at sea, but nothing that explains the detail of them. “[1672] And when he is dead, he is quickly buried, saving his friends and acquaintance that trouble to go to the church and have his passing bell rung, nor to be at the charges of making his grave and his coffin, or to bid his friends and acquaintance to his burial, or to buy wine or bread for them to drink or eat before they go to the church, and none of all this trouble, but when he is dead to sew him up in an old blanket or piece of old canvas, and tie to his feet two or three cannon bullets, and so to heave him overboard, wishing his poor soul at rest, not having a minister to read over his grave, nor any other ceremonies, but praying to God for the forgiveness of his sins, and there he hath a grave many times wide and big enough, being made meat for the fishes of the sea as well as for the worms on land.” (Barlow, p. 214) “[1672] And he being dead, had a coffin made for him and was thrown overboard, his honor being washed away, and all his riches affording him no better grave than the wide ocean…” (Barlow, p. 223) "[1697] The next morning we had a coffin made for him [Captain George Phenny], and about eleven in the forenoon we put him in, with some iron bullets and coals and what we had to sink him. After prayers for the dead were read we hove him into the sea, firing twenty guns as a funeral knell.” (Barlow, p. 477) “[Dec 5, 1675] The last night our boatswain died very suddenly, and this afternoon I buried him in the Greeks’ churchyard. He was nobly buried, and like a soldier. He had a neat coffin, which was covered over with one of the King’s jacks, and his bo’sun’s whistle and chain laid on the top (to show his office) between two pistols crossed with a hanger drawn. At his going off the ship he had nine guns, which were fired at a minute’s distance. And eight trumpets sounding dolefully, whereof the four in the first rank began, and the next four answered; so that there was a continued doleful tone from the ship to the shore, and from thence to the grave. Half the ship’s company, with their muskets in the right posture, going after the corpse, with all the officers of all the ships that were there. I myself going immediately before, and the trumpets before me. The whole town came forth to see us. I buried him according to our Common Prayer Book. Abundance of Greeks were at the grave, showing a great deal of devotion; but the Turks stood from the grave and observed, but were not at all displeased, but (as we heard after) commended our way. When he was buried he had four peals of musket-shot. And as soon as we were out of the churchyard the trumpets sounded merry levitts all the way. His name was Richard Capps, of Deptford.” (Teonge, p. 97-8)

I was thinking we could make a side version, much smaller than what for the majority of the crew, for the scant few vegetarians. (This is S.O.P. at family gatherings - one of my sisters and I are vegetarians.) I suspect this will be reasonably easy to make, though. It's a big, layered salad with fruits, veggies and meats. We can get pre-cooked meats so there will be no cooking involved. Since there is no hard-and-fast recipe (in fact, no recipe is truly hard-and-fast from where I stand), we can incorporate whatever we like. Grocery shopping with M.A.d'Dogge... I'll bet that'll be an experience.

Briarrose Kildare and I have been talking off-line about medicaments from the period. She is actually interested in the herbal properties of the medicines, many of which are still thought to be valid today. Naturally, I am interested in the most lurid medicines I can possibly find, rather than the most useful. With that noble goal in mind, I am resurrecting this thread because I have stumbled across some really great examples in the book Helps for Suddain Accidents Endangering Life (1633) by Stephen Bradwell, self-proclaimed "Physition." This book is designed to be a sort of home-remedy manual. "In the way of Cure [of poisoning], these also that follow are especially commended against all kindes of Poysons whatsoever. Viz. The Hoofe of an Oxe cut into parings, and boyled with bruised Mustard-seed in white Wine and faire Water. The Bloud of a Malard dunke fresh and warme: or els dryed to powder, and so drunke in a draught of white Wine. The Bloud of a Stagge also in the same manner. The Seeds or Rue [a hardy evergreen shrub], and the leaves of [Wood] Betony [an herb] boyled togather in white Wine. Take it, Scruples (that is, fortie graines) of Mithridate [a supposed antidote against poison]; of prepared Chrystall one dram (that is, threescore graines) fresh butter once ounce. Mixe all well together: Swallow it down by such quantities as you can swallow at once; and drinke presently upon it a quarter of a pint of the decoction of French Barley; or so much six shillings Beere. Of this I have had happy proofe. There is also another excellent course to be taken (besides all these) by those of abilitie, and that is; Take a found horse, open his belly alive, take out all his entrayles quickly, and put [Luke Skywalker] the poysoned partie naked into it, all save his head, while the body of the horse retaines his naturall heate: and there let him swett well. This may be held a strange course [You don't say!]: but the same reason that teacheth to divide live Pullets and Pigeons for Plague-sores, approveth this way of Sweating as most apt to draw to it selfe all poysons from the heart & principall parts of the Patients body." (Bradwell, p. 15-17) "Though it happenth very rarely; yet somtimes it has so fortuned, that some lying asleepe on the grasse with their mouth open (as many doe sleepe so) have had a Snake, some an Eft [Newt], one had a Slowworme crept in at his mouth into his Body: Any of these will much torment a man; but especially the last: Because therefore, I have knowne many take delight in sleepe on the grasse in the fields; and since such an accident may happen, I thought it not amisse to teach a helpe for the same. While is yet in the Stomach, labour by vomiting to cast it out. If that prevalyle not, Take the juice of Rue [evergreen shrub] mixed with your own urine: and drinke a draught of it: and it neede require, drinke diverse of these draughts one within an hour of another. Marcus Gatinaria commended the smoake of burnt old shooes received in at the mouth through a Funnell: Telling a man that had in vaine tryed many other Medicines: and with the use of this, avoyded the Viper downeward [from going into his intestines, I guess]." (Bradwell, p. 27-8) There's more, but I don't want to give you too much at once.

Where's the next picture? The good one!

I don't see that. There have basically been two party election contests since the first one - Washington vs. Adams. At that time, the whole concept of a Republic was a revolutionary philosophical idea in which most of the people involved were excited about. (For a fascinating read on the founding of our country, read The Federalist Papers by Alexander Hamilton, James Madison and John Jay. Most people have no idea what a monumental shift in government structure the founding of this country was.) Interestingly, it's actually been proven that if you give people too many choices, they lose their ability to tell the choices apart. (I think the original study involved different types of jams and differentiation became almost impossible in for most people at 6 choices. Several similar studies have been done with other object choices and the results are usually the same: 5 -7 items.) Still, this isn't to say that a valid third party couldn't become part of the process.

Or maybe there was more than I have been led to believe so far in my reading. I thought this was interesting; these quotes are excerpted from the section on amputation in Richard Wiseman's book Of Wounds, Of Gunshot Wounds, Of Fractures and Luxations: "At Sea they sit or lie [during amputation], I never took much notice which; nor do I remember I had ever any body to hold them; but with the help of my [surgeon's] Mates, and some one or two that belonged to the Hold, I went on with my work. At Sterling I made an Amputation on above the knee and had as little help; besides my Servants, there was only a Sea-Chirurgion assisting me. We stopt the Flux of blood by actual Cautery, and the Wound digested and cured without any ill accident." (Wiseman, p. 452) "That done [the bone of the limb being amputated cut], you are at liberty, whether you will cauterize the Vessels by a Button-Cautery [For an example, see part # 11M on this page], or a Ligature [silk strand used to tie arteries] stop the Bleeding, or by Agglutination [adhering the wound edges together]. The use of Chalcanthum [Copper sulfate, used to chemically cauterize] I do not approve. To apply Escharoticks [mild caustics] to the ends of the Nerves and Tendons newly incised, causes great pain, weakens the Part, and makes way for Gangrene; it not being likely you can so apply them to the Artery, but that you must burn the Parts about, which are, as I said, the Nerves & c." (Wiseman, p. 452-3) "But in the heat of Fight it will be necessary to have your actual Cautery always ready, so that will secure the bleeding Arteries in a moment, and fortifie the Part against future Putrefaction: they required after Cauterization no such strict Bandage as that thereby you need to fear interception of the Spirits. When we cauterize the Artery, we do then touch the end of the Bone, it hastening the Exfoliation [casting off necrotic bone matter]." (Wiseman, p. 453) I wonder how he set up the fire for the button cautery? I wonder how he directed something that big only to the artery and didn't "burn the Parts about"?

There are lots of 'third' parties, but none of them get many votes. I think I said this somewhere else, but about 40% of the people align with (and generally vote for) Democrats, 40% go with Republicans and the 20% in the middle decide elections. (These are very rough numbers. There are also a small number of voters who vote for third parties.) There is a belief in the US that if you vote for anyone other than the main party, you're essentially 'wasting your vote'. Ross Perot's candidacy is pointed to as proof of this. Still, as long as this belief persists, we will have a two party system. Politics is nothing if not a social system, thus it is created by mass social beliefs. I think if you wanted to start an electable third party, you'd have to fill a niche that most people feel the two current primary parties are really missing - and not just a sliver of one side's views or the other. (You probably won't get elected by trying to pose as a "more conservative" or "more liberal" party, thus attempting to steal from the two 40% groups. You need broader relevancy than that.). Even with a good niche, you still run a risk of the major parties latching on to it and including it in the main party platforms. So your potential relevancy would be lost. I suggest it might be best to start with smaller elections than president and build credibility in the new party's message (whatever it is). That way it would also be easier to raise money from the citizenry, which is the lifeblood of any political campaign/organization. It'd be a lot of work and would require some really slick marketing. (Of course, there are ways today to market such things effectively and cheaply if your message is sticky enough.) Still, it can be done. How much do you want to see your 'real change'?

Cool. I've always wanted to make Salmagundi. And I'll bet M.A.d'Dogge is a good cook. (I don't know why I suspect that's true, but I just do.) Still, not much to cook in my recipe; it's mostly chopping and arranging.

I haven't found any mention of that in the 20 odd books on period surgery and sailing I've read to date. There was a problem with having open fires shipboard (to heat actual cautery tools), particularly during battles and rough weather. So I suppose it could remotely be possible. Still, there is evidence that cauterization wasn't as widely used during the GAoP as it was before it, so the question may be mostly irrelevant anyhow. Also note that during the preceding era when cautery was more widely used, the idea that gunpowder was poisonous was very hotly debated in the surgical manuals, suggesting to me that they would most likely not even consider treating a wound with it. However, I was just watching They Call Me Trinity and they did it there, so I can at least say it was true in spaghetti westerns.

The term "plague" is a very broad-ranging term as used during period and I personally don't generally trust it as a descriptor of diseases from period on general principles. (The same thing goes for the term "fever.") As Guy Williams explains in his book The Age of Agony: “In the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, the word ‘plague’ was applied loosely to any epidemic fever that caused large numbers of those affected to die.” (Williams, p. 68) The great plague of London in 1665 is often said to be the bubonic plague, which is different than the Black Plague. My understanding is that a form of this bubonic plague spread slowly and can be followed through Europe over the course of years. If seamen were carrying it, I would have thought it would have been much faster in transmission throughout Europe. However, there are probably as many theories as there are theorists, so who knows? John Keevil suggests that seamen were actually largely free from the 1665 London plague because they were on the sea in his book Medicine and the Navy 1200-1900: Volume II – 1640-1714: “...there was also an epidemic of smallpox, especially in London; it was plague, however, that in 1665 caused the greatest mortality, and the fleet’s relative freedom from this infection can be credited to the effective measures of quarantine adopted by the navy, together with the fact that it was at sea during the height of the summer epidemic, and that many of the great ships were paid off in the autumn or winter. In addition, it was favoured by that barrier of water which has so often preserved it from infections that overtake armies and the civil population.” (Keevil, p. 87) I have only read one account that I can recall referencing the plague at sea which is from Woodes Rogers voyage. John Keevil gives a good account of what happened: "Some weeks prior to the attack on Guaiaquil there had been a serious epidemic of what [voyage Physician Thomas] Dover clearly identifies as bubonic plague, and the same infection now appeared in the Duke and Duchess [Roger's two ships]. In his opinion the contagion had resulted from sleeping in churches where the recently buried dead lay too near the surface. Dover wrote that ‘in a very few Days after we got on Board’ the infection was reported among the ships’ companies ‘to my great Surprise’, and ‘in less than forty eight Hours we had in our several Ships one hundred and eighty Men in this miserable Condition’. Rogers gives more detailed figures: by May 11 in the Duke some twenty men were sick, and fifty in the Duchess; on May 14 the numbers were fifty and seventy; next day they reached siexty and eighty, and among the dead was Samuel Hopkins, of whom Rogers wrote that ‘he read Prayers once a Day’ to the men, and ‘was a very good temper’d sober Man, and very well beloved by the whole Ship’s Company.’ Rogers describes no symptoms of what he calls ‘a malignant fever’, and although Dover does so and gives those of bubonic plague, the course of the infection casts doubt on his truthfulness: only men who had landed were affected by the illness, and it lasted among them long enough for deaths to be occurring as late as June 10. The ten deaths mentioned in passing by Rogers in his journal refute Dover’s claim that he ‘lost no more than seven or eight’ patients because of the success of the treatment he ordered. This consisted of bleeding and the administration of dilute sulphuric acid. On June 15 there were still seventy men sick besides officers, but no more patients were dying, and on June 29 at the island of Gorgona, off Central America, they were all placed in a tent ashore to complete their recovery; Rogers ‘put the Doctors ashore with them’." (Keevil, p. 229-30) In his book, Dr. Quicksilver, 1660-1742; The Life and Times of Thomas Dover, M.D., L.A.G. Strong notes: “Dover, in his own account, characteristically took full credit for the men’s recovery. Woodes Rogers attributed the fact that the plague did not spread throughout the crews to his own preventative measure, ie. large quantities of punch; but he permitted himself to wonder, in his journal, that the doctors should be short of medical supplies when the ordering of them had been left in their hands. Where the whole expedition was at fault, of course, was in not having a medical man with experience of the conditions, which they were likely to meet. No landsman, unprompted, would anticipate two hundred cases of the same disease." (Strong, p. 118) So the short answer is: I have not read any accounts of plague outbreaks prior to landing. Evidence I have read suggests the plague was not as prevalent shipboard during this period as it was on land.

Thank you! Based on what I would have to charge just to break even, no one would buy one. (Seriously.)

Ah, that would make it simpler. Since it was your idea originally, I don't want to just hijack your plan. Still, if you are interested in trying this, I'll be willing to do it with you. Salmagundi is a cold, layered salad containing loads of stuff. I have a recipe from Hannah Glasse's cookbook from the mid 18th century, but there isn't really a true hard and fast recipe for it. It contains whatever could be procured on shore and was supposedly a type of feast pirates would make when they made landfall. For reference, here's a copy of the recipe: http://foodhistorynews.com/goldjuly.html What do you think?

Would you help? (I'll help buy the stuff.)

Yeah, I think Rumba started the blonde thread. I just had a blast from the past from reading the older posts, whoa, lol! Agh! The other threads are gone! Boy, that's irritating. (I shall prevent myself from complaining about the mass thread deletion in this forum a few years back...but only just.) "Weren't you a blonde when I came in?" "Could be." "I tend to notice little things like that - whether a girl is a blonde or a brunette." "Which do you prefer?" "Oh, providing the collar and cuffs match..."

I early registered and voted via USPS. My actual voting experience was a pleasant one of tranquility and thoughtful deliberation.

You should make it PC - make salmagundi.

Well, I found a period reference to leeches in Richard Wiseman's surgical manual, Severall Chirurgical Treaties. "One of [the Scottish Army at Dunbar [1650] wounded in the chest] cought a very great proportion daily of thin Matter, of a brown colour and rank smell. None but this died under my hands; the rest after some while retiring to their homes, where (as I have often heard them say) their Leeches performed great Cures, by virtue of some Plants which they gave internally, and which with Fats they made Basalms [aromatic oily or resinous plant products thought to heal wounds or reduce pain] of. Yet I believe this man died tabid [wasted, emaciated]." (Wiseman, p. 436) Wiseman seems to be discounting it as a folk cure, suggesting it didn't work in this case at least. So far, he has never mentioned leeching other than here, and he has mentioned bleeding and scarifying (making multiple incisions for bleeding) many times which continues to make me suspect leeches were not widely used at this time by medical practitioners.

Well, I believe there were also "the blondes of" and "the brunettes of" threads around here when this thread was originally active. (What on God's green earth possessed you to dig this up?)

I have seen reference in some of the recent books on surgery at sea to this particular story, but I didn't know it came from Wiseman. This'll make you appreciate modern medicine... "In a Sea-fight an Irish Mariner having discharged his Gun, which was hony-combed [Why?], and loading it suddenly again, whilst he was ramming in a Cartridge, the Powder took fire, and shot the Rammer out of his hand, tearing the Palm of his hand, also some of his Thumb and Fingers. The Wound was not considerable, but the force of the Blow extinguished both sense and motion of the Member. I drest him up with our common Suppurative, (of which at such times we had great quantity ready,) and applied over all a common Restrictive, so rowled it up, there being then no time for Bleeding him. But after the Fight I let him blood, and a day or two after purged him, then fomented and embrocated the Member with ol. lumbric. cham. anethi, lilior, unguent. nervin, [oil prepared from earthworms, germander, dill, lily and salve for nerves] and such like, and did all that we Chirurgeons of the Squadron thought fitting; but without success. One night after he was cured of his Wound, lying asleep in his Hammock, he was wakened by the wet he felt upon his Breast and Belly; and getting up to a Candle, he found the Dressing upon his Hand all bloody, as also the place whereon it lay. I being called took off his greazy Dressings, and found the Palm of his hand and fingers gnawed by Rats. They had eaten through the oiled Cloths, and had gnawed his Hand more, if he had not wakened by the trickling of his blood. [Recall that his hand was numb.] I drest his Wounds with Digestives to hasten Suppuration, supposing the discharge of Matter might contribute to his Recovery. After I had cured them, I made him a Fontanel in that Arm, and bathed the member frequently, also cupped and scarified it; and afterwards applied Plaisters of Pitch, to stir up a heat in the Members. He was a young man, and otherwise of a strong Constitution, and was not over-solicitous to have it cured, as designing to make some profit by it. To which purpose he took an opportunity of landing, and hastened away to Madrid: Where having gotten some reward for his service, he returned to the Navy, and had more use of his Arm."([Wiseman, p. 437-8) Glossary Cupped/Cupping - removing bad humors by making heating a small cup and placing it on the skin to form a vacuum as it cools. Over a wound, it will remove drainage/blood and bad humours Digestive - medicine used to cause wounds to form pus Embrocate - to moisten and rub with a liniment or lotion Fontenel/Fontenell/Fontenelle - artificial ulcer made by incision or burning, which is maintained by the insertion of a foreign object with the goal of discharging deleterious humours Foment - substance used as a warm, moist medicinal compress; a poultice Plaister/Plaster - an adhesive bandage Restrictive - a bandage used to bind wounds tightly Scarify - Making several small incisions in an area to allow the discharge of blood and remove excess humours Suppurative - medicine promoting the discharge of pus

Professional equipment? We had some "ghost hunters" come out to a theater haunted house we did several years ago and their equipment wasn't exactly what I'd call technical. (In fact, they made us turn off all the lights so they could use it, which interrupted prime building time for almost an hour. ) "They hate this. I like to torture them. That's right, boys. It's Dr. Venkman! A lot of space. Just you?" "Yes." "Good." "What is that thing you're doing?" "It's technical. It's one of our little toys." "I see. That's the bedroom, but nothing ever happened in there." "What a crime." "You know, you don't act like a scientist." "They're usually pretty stiff." "You're more like a game show host."

What a splendid reference for what I'm doing! I'm typing in notes from Paré (and I have a lot of them) and using this wonderful book to figure out what is what when it comes to medicament. 'Aqua vitae' is a pretty common ingredient from several surgeons and I always thought it was just some sort of water. Well, it's not. It means 'Water of Life' aka. Brandy. That'll cure what ails ya!

By George if Wiseman does just about come out and state it directly. He's talking about gunshot wounds to the throat and organs in the chest. I'll let him explain: "Almost all these Wounds made by Gun-shot are mortal; but it is not consistent with Religion or Humanity, to leave such people without help: For sometimes we haply prolong the life of some of them, and now and then cure one." (Wiseman, p. 434) Of course, this is just one surgeon, although my understanding is that he was most influential in his time. And 'haply' is my favorite word of the moment. It means by chance or accident. I am going to use that in a sentence today just for fun.