kass

Yeah, one wonders. Most of the early 17th century jackets I've studied have passementerie buttons -- that is buttons with silk floss or braid knotted or wrapped around them. In the 18th century I know we start getting fabric covered buttons. But you're right: it's kinda obscure whether Lady Fermanagh is talking about silk thread covered buttons or silk fabric covered buttons. Wow! That sleeveless waistcoat DEFINITELY looks like it was made that way to conserve fine fabric. And it's so short. If it weren't for the buttons going all the way to the bottom and the straight fronts, I would have taken it for a mid-18thc waistcoat. Is that pic from Kohler by any chance? It has that look about it.

Hello all. I've been running into a problem on a 1680s waistcoat I'm working on, but I've noticed the problem on earlier clothing too and wanted to know if any of you had a better solution. This 1680s waistcoat has buttonholes every inch all the way down the front edge. That's like 5 million buttonholes. Anyway, as I'm making the buttonholes, I'm noticing that the left side of the waistcoat is getting shorter. I realize that this is because of "take up" caused by making buttonholes. I've noticed it before. Thinner fabrics tend to take up more than thicker fabrics. And this waistcoat is silk outer and lining, interlined with linen. My current solution is to cut the right side shorter to match the left when I'm done because attaching buttons on the right isn't going to cause any take-up at all. Have any of you a better solution?

Thanks, Maria. Those books sound wonderful. I've just finished reading Wits, Wenchers and Wantons that Blackjohn suggested. It rambled all over the 17th and 18th centuries, but the info was very good. I even found out that one of the most famous courtesans and later madams of the Covent Garden area in the early 18thc was nicknamed "The Empress" which is a joke nickname that my friends call me. So it was kind of a fun discovery. Again, thanks for the help. Kass

Dear Gentleman, I've recently been reading a book called "1700: Scenes from London Life" by Maureen Walker and came across a quote pertinent to your search. It is from a letter from Lady Fermanagh to one of the Verneys of Claydon in Buckinghamshire. I quote it in full below: "Deare Mr. Verney, - I have spoke to Mr. Bedford and he tells me that nobody has such a thing s silk buttons to a silk wascoate, and that if you have it done with silver it will be very handsome, and my lord thinks so too. You have sent up one half of your briches and I must have the other half of them sent up, for one briches is too long and we want that which is too much for the briches to make the wascoate compleat, and can't doe without it, so pray don't fail to send it up by John Innes the carryer next week. Mr. Bedford says he will pass his word they shall fitt you and it will come to ten shillings more than silk buttons, and your father bids me weight you word that silk will look very ugly, I will rake care to doe everything for the best when I know your mind." Which is unfortunate because I made silk buttons for my waistcoat But apparently silver was the preferred thing and silk had gone out of fashion enough that Lady Fermanagh sought to prevent Verney from making this faux pas. I know that isn't a definitive answer and it also mentions nothing of justacorps buttons, but I thought you would find an contemporary reference useful for your search.

As I understand it, the exhibit wasn't travelling. I mean all the items in the exhibit are in the Met's permanent collection. So while they are not on exhibit all the time, they are there and you can still see them (or arrange to see them privately) at any time. It's just tougher to arrange. But I'm trying to find out if the exhibit had a catalog that I can buy for inspiration. I don't have any good ideas for your fabric search. Sorry... I can't think of the title of a book on drafting, but it is definitely worthwhile getting a book and learning this technique. I mean, there is no end to the things you can do when you learn how to draft. And draping. Also learn how to drape. These are the two techniques that will free you from using patterns forever!

I'm guessing that the extant clothes from our period were recut and made into the extant clothes of the 1750s-1790s. It's just a guess but taking into consideration the gorgeous fabrics and embroidery and brocades and that our frock coats were larger than the frock coats worn in the later half of the 18th century, I'd say clothing wasn't discarded but passed down to later generations and recut. Like I said, though, this is just a guess as to why there is a dearth in this time period. The only existing sailor's item of clothing of which I know is a linen shirt dating to the ealry 17th century. But frankly, shirts didn't change too much from the 16th through 18th centuries. I don't know about other sailor's clothing of the period, but I just started looking into civilian fashions myself.

To me, John, it's not so much the war as it is the end of the century (of course I don't usually think in terms of wars as dividing lines). In the late 17th century, clothing looked... well... 17th century. Along comes 1700 and the clothing starts to look 18th century. The mantuas start looking like robes anglais. The frock coats start getting wider in the skirts when before they were rather straight-bodied. It honestly seems a rather natural evolution, but you're right: it takes place abruptly around the time of the war and then progresses much more slowly for the rest of the 18th century. Of course until the French Revolution screws everything up. I guess a Dutch Duke and a Scottish Prince battling for the Throne of England in an Irish field was just too much cosmic calamity for fashion to bear, eh?

The Pirate Brethren thank you! How could we resist helping a Gentleman of Fortune. Of course if you find any other artists of the period, Gent, please share with us too.

Definitely Laroon! I use his "Cryes" alot and they are used extensively at the 1690s house where I do some volunteer interpretting. He really shows a great cross-section of the population -- from wealthy merchants to people just barely getting by, courtesans to street walkers, dandies to Quakers. It's a great resource for what people wore. John, I believe Laroon's Cryes are from the final decade of the 17th century. I don't have the exact date here, but something in the 1690s sticks in my multi=period-poisoned brain. :)

Hi Gentleman of Fortune. Now I understand you. The trim I plan on using for the safflower frock coat looks alot like the trim on the original, as pictured at the top of that page on my website. A friend actually wove the stuff years ago, never used it, found it again, thought it looked similar to the picture on my site, and sent it to me as a present. I won't have enough to do trim the entire coat like the original, but I'll be able to add some flash to the collar and cuffs I think. :angry: I think the reason that Fashion in Detail and the V&A are so sparse in 1690s-1720s men's clothing is because not much has come down to us. If you think about it, it's quite easy to recut an early 18th century frock coat into a mid- or late-century frock coat. I don't know if this was done, of course. I know many of the women's garments we have from the late 18thc were older gowns that were recut. And it's possible this happened with the frock coats too. I mean, why waste all those lovely brocades?! Maudelynn, my best friend was in London studing Elizabethan blackwork right around the time I was making that drawnwork jacket I talked about earlier and she was so disappointed that she didn't get to bring me back any info on the original. Luckily a friend online had some pictures she'd taken years ago and she helped me. It's tough to replicate a jacket when you've only ever seen a close-up of the drawnwork and a outline sketch of the whole thing. I cannot BELIEVE I missed the "Dangerous Liaisons" exhibit at the Met this summer. By the time I heard about it, there were only a few days left and then we had a terror scare. :angry:

Hi Maudelynn. Try J.P. Ryan. I think she only sells direct from her site (which I put somewhere else in this thread). Her patterns are really well-researched and well-made. Mill Farm is good, but they're old. What I mean to say is that the woman who made the patterns sold the company to someone else who I don't think is updating them. I just know how far the study of Colonial clothing has come in the past 5-10 years that I would worry they were out of date. Of course, I can't say for sure that they are. And they certainly were state of the art when they came out. Oh Akasha, I've never gone Gothing. It sounds like so much fun! I'm so sorry about your elbows. Did I tell you I get bursitis in mine? Sewing doesn't hurt them but most other things do. So I have total empathy for you. Take your time and get well, and when you do, we're going to see some spectacular stuff coming from you, I'm sure! I can't wait to show you ladies the eggplant corset. I bet we have the same duchesse satin, Akasha! I got mine from Thai Silks on clearance about 2 years ago. If only I could motivate myself to sit at the machine today. But I have made one step forward. At least I found some snaps to close the back of my bloomers and I'm sewing them on by hand in the cool room.

Yup. Gotta have the right underwear. I'm actually doing a stays workshop tomorrow at our local living history house and a gown draping workshop in September. Too bad you ladies aren't local. The 1753 Bachmann House Yes. Great site. I can't say I care for Period Impressions at all. Too costumey for me. And I really do draw the line (forgive the pun) at pattern makers who handwrite their patterns. Sorry. Professionally made patterns shouldn't look like you made them on your kitchen table with a ballpoint pen. Sure! Use it as you will. Or at least email me. I started doing things that way because I had a friend online who I would share projects with. She'd take pictures of her projects and show me and I'd take pictures of my projects and show her. It was a great way for us to keep each other motivated long distance. And then one day someone asked me a question that could be answered by the pictures I took to share with my online friend. So I put them all up on a webpage and put text to describe what was going on in each picture, etc. It's less a tutorial and more just a photo essay of the process. But if you have some knowledge of clothing making, it's pretty easy to figure out what to do next. I like helping people make something really cool. And I also like showing off my work. So the photo essays serve two purposes. :) Maudelynn, I drafted my riding habit based on the one in Arnold's Patterns of Fashion 1. I'm sure it won't come as a surprise when I say I don't care for Rocking Horse Farm's patterns. But as you probably have noticed, I'm REALLY picky about patterns. Plus I love to draft my own so I rarely use anyone else's anymore. :) My favourite fabric suppliers are fabrics-store.com (who I ocassionally write for) and Thai Silks. Akasha, my friend (who I call my "book pusher") showed me Fashion in Detail about four years ago and I've had a sewing projects list a mile long ever since. When I got the book, I didn't even do 18th century! I don't have it nearby, but my favourite is the white-on-white embroidered linen doublet from the 1640s. Here's a "dream page" on it: White-on-white Linen Doublet I hope to make it this year's winter project. By the way, here's last year's winter (and early spring) project, also from the infamous Fashion in Detail: Drawnwork Lady's Bodice It still needs more spangles, but I have to convince my husband to pound more silver wire for me. Today I should be working on a new 1880s corset (eggplant duchesse satin with yellow silk thread embroidery) but it's too damned hot to sit at the machine.

Oh, I just wanted to add that if any of you are looking to make a robe anglais but have never draped a gown before, I have a photo essay of it online here: A Striped Gown Anglais Cheers, Kass

Blackjohn, I don't think you'd catch him dead with red wine anyway. Or at least, if I caught him with red wine, he'd be dead. Frankly, the colour is so light sensitive that I'll eventually have to redye it anyway. So if he spilled something outrageous on it, I wouldn't absolutely kill him. It'd just kill him a little... Akasha, I LOVE that red mantua in FiD. Wouldn't I kill for that silk too. I'm sure I could add a red dye to the saffron to make it orangey. But that's so much like work... Gentleman of Fortune, I don't know if the museum staff can classify it exactly. It's ribbed silk. I don't think it's grosgrain or moiré or faille or they would have said so. I used tussah dupioni because of the stiffness of the tussah silk. Dupioni doesn't exactly have even ribs like the original, but it does give a similar appearance. And, well, I already had it in my stash so it won. I don't know what you mean by what am I using to make my frock. Do you mean what fabric or what pattern? If you mean pattern, I drafted this pattern myself based on one in Waugh's Cut of Men's Clothes. Maudelynn, I don't have a picture in my head of the Sleepy Hollow gown, but I would avoid Wingeo's patterns like the plague. I haven't heard good things about them. Have you ever seen JP Ryan's patterns? Hers are really a cut above everything else I've seen on the market thusfar. Here's her site: The Recollections of J.P. Ryan

Thanks, Maria. I was wondering if you meant the Harlot's Progress. I found it in a web search for Hogarth yesterday. Thanks for the other information as well. Good stuff all!

Hi Akasha. Yeah Jacquard rules. The boning channels are done by machine. The only corset I've done by hand so far is a lightly boned 16thc one. I'm working on a more heavil boned one all done by hand though. It's in progress here: The Effigy Corset If you're referring to the white strip I think you're referring to, it's a narrow strip of twill tape used to cover the seams. Extant 18thc stays tend to have these things, so I did it on this one. It's my only stays with that embellishment though. Doesn't really do anything functional except cover and highlight the seam. I used 7mm flat oval reed to bone the corset. Got it here: Grannd Companies It put two reeds in each channel, facing opposite directions to fight curving. It bends with you and breathes really well. I don't have too much trouble getting into them because my husband laces me up. But damn, I have no idea what I'd do without him!

I used a product called "Jacquard Acid Dyes" in the colour burgundy (#210). They're really easy to use. You set your washing machine on hot for a small load, pour in the dye (to get this deep colour took only 1/2 oz), make sure it's dissolved, add 1/4 cup white vinegar, and throw in your garment or fabric. It's dead easy. Here's the company that sells the dye. They have a list of colours and stores where you can get them: Jacquard Products More pictures of my good ol' stays? How's this: Stays Front Stays Back Stays Side

Thanks. I did forget about highwaymen. I kinda had Plunkett and McLain kicking around in my head when I asked the questions. If you find any titles in your library, I would appreciate knowing about them.

Anyone heard of this book: "Female Tars: Women Aboard Ship in the Age of Sail " by Suzanne J. Stark Any good?

How this? This is this week's project: Hunting Costume (in progress)

Plunder yourself a Spanish ship, Akasha, and there be saffron for all of us! I used that pound of saffron for this experiment: Dyeing with Real Saffron I mean, look at how orange it is in the pot! But once you wash the garment, it's yellow. Very very bright yellow, but there is no way to get the orangey-ness to stay. Oh goodness! I just realized that it was an ounce, not a pound! Now wonder I was able to afford it!

If you would be so kind as to look up that name, Red Maria, I really would appreciate it. Nell Gwyn... Yeah. Perhaps a little bit early but taken in comparison to the 18th century stuff, perhaps rather useful... THANKS!

Thanks, Red Maria. I'm looking for a little earlier than the work of Hogarth and Fielding, but I adore them both. And Moll Flanders is my idol. :) I know Dangerous Beauty was based on An Honest Courtesan, but it's the wrong country and the wrong time period. A 1993 book on a Venetian poet and prostitute from the 16th century isn't going to help me study late 17th century courtesans in London.

Got 'em! I dug through my mail and found a bunch of partially-used Amazon gift certificates and plundered myself five new books! "Wits, Wenchers and Wantons" "1700" "Dr. Johnson's London" and two books by Picard, both called "Restoration": "Restoration London: Engaging Anecdotes and Tantalizing Trivia from the Most Magnificent and Renowned City of Europe" and "Restoration London: From Poverty to Pets, from Medicine to Magic, from Slang to Sex, from Wallpaper to Women's Rights" Woo hoo! Plunder! Kass

I just can't wait to show you the pictures of me lad in the finished goods, Siren.