kass

Elmer Fudd season!

I hear nothing.... Pass that pitcher, wouldja, Jack?

Oh Josh... You must have been drunk! It was a stellar BROWN riding outfit... You know, it occurs to me that this "friendly debate" has ended up like every good friendly debate should: with the debators buying each other drinks in the Pub! More friendly debate! More friendly debate! Hee hee hee!

Josh, I could never forsake you! You're the one who went and moved to warmer climes on us. I'm hoping we come up with an interesting enough event to tempt you Northward again. I haven't been to the PA Ren Faire in about 12 years, but I knew it well back then. Ren Faires are what they are. I love to see what people come up with. No worse than the Pirate Feast, really. And I can wear early 16th century German one day and late 17th century Pirate the next and who's gonna say anything? And I'll have my hounds with me. Yay period appropriate doggies!!! I know about the Brewery. You see, I know this brewer...

Hey Petee, you can buy me a beer and I'll make sure Foxe gets it when I see him in England next month!

Well, that was easy... :) Make it a good one!

I think you're trying to confound me with logic like you Brits always try to do... But I thought I was letting you spend the afternoon in my steamer trunk and you were buying ALL my drinks for the whole visit?

Damn! How am I supposed to buy you a beer if you're out there?! You ever get to the PA Faire, you let me know! I know one hell of a brewer!

Cool... Hey Das, I forgot to answer part of your post: no, it wouldn't have been me with the greyhounds in 2004. I just adopted mine this fall. And I don't think I've been to the PA Faire since 1996 or so. But this year, I just might make a nuisance of myself!

Dorian, it is always a possibility as my husband is originally from Lewistown. Das, it was the Pennsylvania State Navy that first got me into the 18th century! I know Damien from way back. Made his wife a waistcoat when she was playing a boy. He taught me how to crew a cannon, he did! I LOVE Mifflin. We're actually talking about having a Pirate era event there this year. I will keep you informed!

Hi Petee! [love the music on your website, by the way] Okay, is this particular picture from the 1720s though. Looks 1740s to me you see... Understood about the guy in the Great Coat. I believe you. Second to the last pic, I didn't comment because I couldn't really see. Does the male dancer also have boots on. THAT would be very strange, but I think that's what I'm seeing. The clothing looks like 1670s. It almost looks like William of Orange and Mary Stuart dancing there. Do you see what I mean about the third and fourth picture though? Totally different kind of clothing on the people.

I'm just wondering who's fairly local to me. I'm in Eastern PA -- can see Central Jersey (and the Delaware River) from my front porch. It seems that I might be spending some time at the PA Ren Faire this summer with my greyhounds, so I wanted to know the odds of meeting any of you fine people there. And I think I owe Petee a drink!

Petee, this is really GREAT! Thanks! Them's is some boots, fer sure! Some riding. Some not. Some very strange indeed. The second one down, do you think the guy in the Great Coat is wearing boots? I think it's debatable. But I'll give you that. Sailors? Can't say for sure. I can say that the picture is post GAoP though. Hogarth is what, 1740s? The third and fourth pictures show an old man in what are definitely ECW-era bucket boots. I can't see his clothing too well, but the woman in the doorway in the fourth picture is definitely wearing 1630s fashionable clothing. The other people in the pictures are too murky to tell what they're wearing. The guys seated at the table could be either wearing Justacorps or "Soldiers' Coats". They would look the same from the waist up. But it's got me thinking that this is a much early picture. Got a date for it. Cuz I'm gonna say it's no later than 1640 (or at the very least depicting people from the 1640s). I'm gonna have to stick to what I've been saying -- possible but rare in the period. And I don't think they would have ever been the "fashionable" choice for men. Can't tell you about sailors... But thanks, Petee! I never knew there were so many pictures of boots out there!

Some of this stuff is pretty fuzzy and the styles are kinda mixed up. But from the clothing styles I would put a date of no later than 1640 on the first one and 1650s (possibly early 1660s) on the second. The statue looks to be dressed in alot of drapery that makes for good statues, but doesn't actually tell us about the clothing people actually wore at the time. Hey, as an aside, did you know that many of the famous Greek statues are dressed in drapery that is physically impossible? Experimental archeologists went through the trouble of weaving the cloth to period specs and everything and just couldn't make it do what it did on the statues. It was decided that the arrangement of the drapery was thought most pleasing to the eye even though it could not be achieved in real life. So that's statues for ye! The Duguay picture you posted, Das, is just odd. The clothing looks over-simplified for some reason. Don't know why. I can't say it's not a contemporary picture, but it's not really great with details... This is cool! I'm seeing so many pictures I've never seen before! Hey, are any of you lot (not Greg and Ed, of course) East Coast?

I think it was 6:30... But that's Wee Jim Hawkins. He starts on the floor. Not contesting what you say, my brother. Penn was pretty important to us. But you see, I volunteer at Pennsbury Manor (Penn's "summer house" on the Delaware) and when you learn about his life, he pretty much failed at everything he tried: starting a colony where religion could be practiced freely, making a profit from the sale of land, finishing his dream house, raising children who weren't schmucks... But the stuff he tried was extraordinary!

How about a personal introduction? All you Brits know each other, right?

I'll stick them in my trunk. You get access depending on how many rounds you buy! Penn is the failed eldest son of a Admiral in the Civil War, darling. Never amounted to much... Damn! And I do so love Baldric... Although I am still scarred after seeing his ass in "Back and Forth".

It's pretty much a dead heat between the 1700s Frock Coat (RH702) and the Women's Hunting Outfit (RH709). I think we're going to see a lot of women in riding outfits without horses... Speaking of which, I should get back to the grind now!

No they're not, darling. He lived after the GAoP. Okay, he was 19 in 1725. But the clothing we think of him wearing is what he wore in middle age, in the 1750s-1770s. Stuff changed pretty dramatically around 1720: frock coat skirts got big, waistcoats shrank, wigs got small... What you meant to say (because now I'm in your head) is that everyone would end up looking like William Penn. See, he IS period!

I generally go for scantily clad.... Quality! I meant quality!!!

Silly Hawkins... They're obviously both subs looking for a dom! :) Let's face it, friends, all of the "dress up and play" hobbies (faires, reenacting, SCA, costume cons, fantasy, BDSM, etc.) attract a certain kind of person -- notably the kind that likes to dress up and pretend to be someone else for a while (even if that someone is just yourself in early 18thc dress). We all spend a lot on our kit and historical accuracy is just not to guiding force of some people, even though they participate in a hobby we perceive as historical. Perhaps they perceive it as fantasy and wonder why we spend so much money trying to get the right shape hilt for our swords or shoes that are made out of the right kind of leather and stitched by hand. I'd bet they do. I like to see people put effort into their kit, no matter what their purpose. However, I don't need to see red crushed velvet lycra tights and a leather jock strap on a chubby old man... [No offense, guys. I'm sure you wouldn't want to see a chubby old woman in them either!]

Oh silly Das! Ben Franlin's not period... I am refraining from comment on the blue ballerina and the old guy in the crushed velvet tights. Refraining, I tell you!!! Don't you just love when Foxe says, "As Kass mentioned..."? I think that ought to get me at least one round, don't you guys agree?

Cool! I love seeing new illustrations. You don't happen to have a painter and title for the one with the horse, do you, Petee? I'd like to use that one... As for other styles of boots, I think Foxe addressed this already but I'll reiterate: boots are not formal wear. They are a leg-covering designed for riding a horse. So the whole idea of "dressing up" and wearing boots is pretty wrong until the modern era. I mean, a man wearing boots would be looked at funny at Court, at a ball, at a wedding, at dinner, at any event where one would be expected to "dress up". And I think he also stated that boots aren't something sailors tend to wear for practical reasons. Nowadays, boots have rubber heels and all kinds of things that make them good in wet conditions. Before the late 19thc, rubber was not in use yet. This means they were slippery when wet. Not something you'd want to wear on the dekc of a ship. We want to wear boots because WE think they're cool (and we think period shoes and stockings look geeky). But if we're trying to figure out what people in the Golden Age of Piracy thought was cool, we have to put ourselves in their place and judge through their eyes. That's tough to do not being able to read 350-year-old minds. But we can see in their portraiture what people wanted to be painted wearing (aka their idea of cool). And in portraits I'm not seeing boots at all except on men on horseback. Believe me, I LOVE boots. But I can't wear 'em unless I'm on a horse.

Just different ideas of fun is all. I gotta tell you that one of the reasons I go to Faires is to see all the outrageously cool outfits people come up with. I could never invent something as cool as what people at the Faires come up with. I love to see the creativity on display. People really put alot into their stuff. Wouldn't be quite the same if we all had the same set of personal "rules", you know?

Okay. Undoubtedly period pictures, Petee. But I see a man on horseback wearing riding boots, not "bucket boots". And I see a boot with a spur -- another riding boot -- without seeing the rest of the clothes on the man wearing them. The obvious man in the Justacorps at the back is wearing stockings and shoes. I can tell by the typical bulge over his breeches bottoms that you see from the late 17th until the mid-18th century. Is it possible that we're getting hung up on the term "bucket boots" here? Because the boots called "bucket boots" that were fashionable in the 1620s through 1650s have a huge thigh-high top on them that folds down when not on a horse, forming the bucket shape. These were fashionable and were worn by men when not mounted. Many boots in many eras had the knee-protecting cuff, but it's not a "bucket boot". And riding boots before and after this period were generally not walked around in. They're uncomfortable to walk in.