kass

Funny how there are court records in England about the trials of Bonny and Read then, eh? Do you think DeFoe wrote those too? I wonder how he smuggled them into the Public Record Office... The "DeFoe was really Johnson" theory was disproved by English lit scholars in the 1990s. From content, format, and style, it is clear that DeFoe did not write Johnson's General History.

Boys... You're so delightfully simple! I don't know... Even I think the chick on the cover is hot. What were we talking about again?

Hey Jack, have you read this article? The Right Stuff The finest stuff you can get for a decent price is the 3.5oz from fabrics-store.com (accessible through the links in the above article). But if you're willing to shell out $25-30 a yard, I can get you the GOOD stuff. You can read a magazine through it! Pricey but addictive... However, this is not the place where I sell my stuff. This is the place where I advise you lot on how to do things in an historically accurate manner. So there! The moderatress has sensored herself!

Jack, there's no real "standard" for what thickness of material stocks were made from. There are rough stocks, cravats and kerchiefs and there are fine ones. The fine ones were made out of linen or silk fine enough to see through. The rough ones may have looked much like burlap. When it comes to neckwear -- like everything else -- think of the person you seek to portray. This will dictate the fineness of the fabric of your neckcloth. Keep in mind that your neckcloth would probably be finer than your shirt material if at all possible. But a loose weave does not necessarily dictate thinness of the fabric. I have some very tightly-woven silk that you can read a newspaper through.

Stocks were worn in the GAoP. But they weren't the "stitched into place and buckled" versions that became popular in the latter part of the 18th century. The best-preserved stock we have is one that belonged to George IV when he was Prince of Wales, and it dates to the very late 18th century. Stocks during this time were more likely strips of linen that were wrapped around the neck. Actually, this is far more prevalent in period English and American illustrations and portraiture than the cravat, which has a decided "French" flavour (not that the English didn't wear French things too...). The collar of the shirt is completely obscured by the stock (unlike later stocks which push the collar up towards the jawline in the Regency style). Jabots... I'm trying to think of what kind of neck treatment this is. The dictionary defines it as a ruffle on the front of a shirt, but it's a modern dictionary, so I have no idea if that is what was meant in the GAoP. Ruffled shirts were certainly worn in the GAoP. The ruffle was often made from a much finer linen than the rest of the shirt. The ruffle was sewn to both sides of the center front neck slit and the way the waistcoat was buttoned would push it up. But I can't think of any examples of this ruffle being a separate item. And now for one you didn't mention, Jigme: the kerchief. A simple kerchief rolled and tied around the throat (or head) is far FAR more prevalent in pictures of sailors (even captains) in this time period. A kerchief is just a square of linen and can be used for all kinds of applications. A very functional accessory for a sailor. 'Cuz, you know, even Captains have to work onboard a ship. They didn't just ponce about, dripping with lace.

Mary, The best place to begin your search is with the source, Captain Johnson's General History of Pirates.... This early 18th century source work, often mistakenly attributed to Daniel DeFoe, takes its information from the court transcripts of Anne Bonny and Mary Read's trial. No one else's theories or retellings of Anne Bonny's life will give you better information than that you can read from the original yourself. If your intent is an accurate portrayal of Anne Bonny's life, Johnson's General History is the place to start. Although this one says it's written by DeFoe, it is actually a very good edition of Johnson. Kass

Which is why your intrepid moderator has not deleted it, Jim. :) In future, Satan, if you want to discuss "fun Pyrate" stuff, it doesn't belong here. But I'm glad this thread has come around to what IS appropriate for the period. Thank you, woodworking specialists!

It's some Icelandic breed, Jessie. Sorry if I can't be assed to look it up. But I'm certain it was Icelandic... The funny thing, Pat, is that my friend and I went to a sheep and wool show the weekend before she got married. Her soon-to-be husband gave her one directive: "You may only buy a sheep if you find a purple one." She was really, really temped to get one of these Icelandic sheep, but they lived in an apartment.

Don't be surprised if it doesn't work, Alyx. If the bodice wasn't made to be spiral laced (it needs to have offset eyelets so the edges don't line up wrong), it may make it more uncomfortable.

Somehow I figured red cows and you may have come into contact at some point... A bit of trivia -- there's a colour of a particular breed of sheep that's called "lavendar". The sheep aren't actually purple, but they have two coats -- a coarse wiry white overcoat that's fairly waterproof and a black soft, downy undercoat. This combo of coats makes them look grey, but the technical name for the colour for this breed is "lavendar".

Thank you, Captains Jim and William, for turning this back to the historical. Provenance please. A pretty picture does us no good, people, if its origin is unknown. Remember: scholarly discussion of the GAoP...

Both woven and painted/printed patterns are appropriate for this period, Murin, as Pat says. Nothing moreso than calico which was a very expensive cotton late imported from Calcutta, India (Captain Rackham was nicknamed "Calico Jack" for his love of the costly fabric). The problem is, of course, that not every pattern, stripe, plaid, et cetera that is available today was available back then. Many of the calicoes in modern fabric stores are based on more Victorian-period patterns, not Colonial or GAoP. So you have to be very careful. After years of studying period patterns, you develop an eye for what would be appropriate and what wouldn't. For now, if you don't see the pattern in a picture of an extant garment or you don't find it in the artwork, I'd avoid it. Solid colours were always much MUCH more popular than patterns and you can't go wrong with solids.

Don't rule it out yet, Jigme! We're actually working with a company that reproduces period-appropriate laces. But the stuff ain't gonna be cheap... But don't let anyone kid you, man. A simple rectangle (big enough to go around your neck, tie, and reach your sternum) with lace on the ends is all you need. And I'll tell you a secret -- if you fold it the right way, you don't even have to hem the edges because they'll be hidden in the fold.

Don't sweat it, Jigme. A cravat is just a long rectangle of linen with some lace sewn to each end. It's the simplest thing in the world to sew.

{ignoring the boys and their pun-ishment} Yup. I did that, Hugh. The orange colour sits on top of the fabric -- you can literally wipe it off with your fingers. It doesn't penetrate the fibres at all. That's why it rinses away. Nothing will set it -- outside of a good spray coating of shellac. On silk or wool, this could be entirely different. Vegetable fibres react very differently than animal fibres.

Ever seen a red cow? Like that red. Black was an expensive colour. No doubt about that. Undyed black wool would have been quite different (and obviously not a fine cloth) from wool dyed with iron and tannins (the expensive way). Making the leap you're making is too simplistic and a bit dangerous, Jessie. I'd be cautious. If you want to justify wearing black, there was an extensive trade in second-hand clothing in this period. Your black clothing wouldn't have been new-looking (and therefore the black faded), but it is possible for a commoner to have black. Just top to toes black -- leave it for the Duke of Burgundy...

Indigo is a pretty substantive dye. It wears with age, but it takes a lot of abuse. So naturally black wool overdyed with indigo would be pretty black. Not "true" black, but pretty dark with a bluish tinge. I buy the wool for my Monmouth caps and stockings from a woman who raises Black Welsh Mountain Sheep. They're a period breed. They're pretty obviously black. But they live outside. So their fleece gets little red tips to it from exposure to the sun. She coats many of her top fleece producers, though, so this only happens on the ends that get dirty and cut off anyway. Again, not what you'd call "jet black", but very, very close. Undyed wool also comes in a bunch of other colours -- grey, brown, even red! When we say "undyed wool", we mean off-white, but there are as many colours of sheep as there are of dogs or horses or cows. So "undyed wool" doesn't really tell us anything about the colour of the wool.

I never had a yard before last year. And we all know I'm not allowed in the kitchen! I was just going to add to my post a caution -- you can't always believe what you read in books, even when the writer is an expert in her field. I remember reading in one of Patricia Baines' books (an expert on linen history and production) that safflower would produce a yellow colour on linen if boiled. The truth is that safflower will produce NOTHING on linen if boiled. Boiling kills the red dye in safflower which is the only dye that is amenable to vegetable fibres. Boiling safflower will produce a yellow dye on animal fibres, like wool and silk, but the red dye is very heat sensitive and will not survive. When I read this, I thought perhaps my experiments were wrong. But as much as Patricia Baines knows about linen, she isn't a dyer. She obviously recorded some information incorrectly and no one caught it. I'm still not convinced that saffron will produce orange on linen (on silk, I would believe...). It just goes against everything I know about dyeing linen AND about working with saffron.

Never needed to. The yellow (which is the colour I was after -- replicating the saffron shirts from Irish history were my goal) stays just fine and that's what I cared about. You see, I did my experiments because some Irish "scholars" were saying that saffron produced a brownish colour -- which we both know is bull. If I ever get back into dyeing, I'll have to mordant my linen. In my weld and greenweed experiments, I've used alum-mordanted linen. The problem is that alum does tend to dull bright colours. I'd be surprised if it preserved the orange colour on linen. But as I said, I haven't done saffron with a mordant before. Time to get out the old lobster pot, isn't it?

Salty, I swear to you I'm not just trying to get you to buy my patterns. I want to answer your question. But before I do that, I have to ask you what you mean by "acceptable"? If you mean acceptable historically for the Golden Age of Piracy, there is nothing about typical "wench costume" that is historically documentably for any time period (barring, of course, 2007 Ren Faire). It is an invented outfit that has a life of its own. It has no historical elements. If you mean acceptable as a Ren Faire wench costume, then it is perfectly acceptable as it is. No harm, no foul, sweetie. Although this really doesn't belong in Twill if you're not discussion historical stuff. It belongs in Plunder. I'm moving it there now.

Chole, Everything I've ever dyed with saffron has come out bright yellow without a touch of orange. Of course I've only ever dyed linen with it. It comes out of the dyebath screaming orange, but that all washes away in the rinse. I know Buddhist monks' robes are dyed with saffron, but I wonder if Eastern saffron is a different plant than the Spanish saffron I used... Click here for a saffron experiment that I actually photographed. Voila! Jigme, There's really no tried and true answer to your question. Some frock coats had contrasting linings, some had matching linings, some didn't have linings at all. Some were linen, some were silk... Tough one... Kass

People did think of cross lacing, but they used it for other purposes. Cross lacing pulls edges together kinda "against their will", if you see what I mean. That's why it's so effective in Victorian corsetry. The purpose of stays is not to compress your waist to a smaller size. It's to support your bust and back. Spiral lacing pulls two edges together firmly without distorting them. So that's why they didn't cross lace. The single biggest mistake movie costumers make is cross lacing stays. It just wasn't done.

Neither, Michael. Just have her read this: Getting Dressed Guide for Women 1680-1725 I wrote it with newcomers to the period in mind. :)

Yeah! Hemp canvas and rope for your shelter, kersey, broadcloth, and flannel for your clothing... I'm sure we can come up with more stuff you need. Just give me a couple weeks! Pirates? Ha! Merchants... And Michael, everyone is lazy. I just want you to know that the historical notes include the history and use of women's riding costume so years from now, you'll still have that when this post will be long gone.

Hi Michael! Dark peacock blue is a lovely (and appropriate) colour for the riding outfit. I cannot wait to see pictures of your lady in hers. As for context, you might read the historical notes that came with the pattern... But for those of you following along at home, riding habits in this time period were used for much more than just riding horses. In the late seventeenth and well into the eighteenth century (possibly even until 1800), riding habits were worn by women who were engaging in any kind of outdoor activity -- including simply travelling in a carriage. Although I hate to diminish the beauty and elegance of the riding outfit with this modern parallel, it's kinda like today's track suit -- people wear them when running or walking, but they also wear them on airplanes because they're comfy. Regarding class, remember that the merchant or middle class in this time period was far from poor. This was a time when they were rising so quickly that they often dressed better than the nobility (the latter being lately impovrished). So a merchant class woman could very easily justify wearing a riding habit. I make this one caution -- the riding habit isn't meant to be a woman's daily outfit. I've seen women making the mistake of wearing them all the time. They really were travelling/outdoor activity clothing, not something for daily wear. If your lady wants to continue her liaison with this nefarious company, I suggest she try a mantua next. They're easy, comfortable and lovely.