MarkG

Hey Cheeky, the dates have been locked for a while, so you are clear there. We will have to coordinate a limited number of trips to the island (3?) As we can get plenty of pedestrian ferry passes, but we will be limited to 3(?) Vehicles... which is why we will all have to try and travel as light as possible and coordinate avoiding bringing any duplicate equipment (cooking gear, huge tents for singles etc.)...

Which leads me to Silas Thatcher's post... Sorry to be slow in getting back to you, but between Santa Maria and work I gave been swamped... but if you, Connie and Carol are going to all share the tent... bring just your large tent. I think everyone coming has their own tent/accommodations, but if anyone does need a loaner I am sure they will speak up. I think Mark's fly should serve us again this year, so thanks for the offer, but we ned to try to keep things streamlined

Last year for the display we set up one of my wedges and a fly. There might have been something else. We were a bit crowded trying to find shade. I expect this year to be cooler with a greater chance of rain. With more people it would be nice to have at least one more fly or wedge that could be opened up.

I'm not going to bring as much display stuff this year. We ended up with more stuff than we could properly display so I will concentrate on canvass, tables, and boats.

Thanks William, some great tunes.

Just a word to the authenti-minded, a handful of them are too late for GAoP. The Faery Dance and Farewell to Whisky were both composed by Neil Gow, who was born in 1727 (and started playing the fiddle in 1740 if the legends are true). The Firth of Cromartie is attributed to his sons. Come O'er the Stream Charlie is almost certainly a Jacobite tune from the 1740s or later.

Anything from the Beggar's Opera should be appropriate for the late end of the GAoP. It was published in 1728 and used popular broadside music from a few years earlier.

it wasnt the pyarate stuff! i just didnt like the episodes plot, it really seemed crappy in comparison to the season opening episodes............and iv grown not to expect tooooooo much from the history channel.......

The episode was a classic Dr. Who plot - something bad is happening, the Doctor appears, more bad things happen, the doctor figures out how to minimize the deaths but more people die anyway, the Doctor figures out what is going on and stops it. The main difference with this one is that everyone survived. Usually there is a high body count. They have been using variations of this plot since the 1960s.

Capt J is looking for some sheet music with chords for guitar. We really need some campfire music from the period.

For those in the western Ohio area, the Kitchen Musicians usually come to the Faire at New Boston on Labor Day weekend. All of these pieces and more can be bought from them there.

me, connie and carol can plan to be there, friday morning... we can also bring our big red van which will swallow a whole encampment AND tow a boat....

we also have our big o' wall tent which can sleep up to 50 or more or stash loads of stuff in... otherwise we were just going to bring the wedge tent and maybe the fly.... we currently also have a diamond shelter which can be set up in a few different ways...

let us know what we should bring...

That helps. Last time Jennie and I brought our own tent plus a wedge tent for people to sleep in plus a wedge tent and a fly for the display. I think that we had one other fly. We could have used more canvas for display.

I'll probably be arriving with Michael so we will need another vehicle to ferry belongings over to the island.

Ive been thinking about this and its got me wondering. Often you can find original blunderbusses with a yoke made to be mounted as they are too big to fire from the shoulder or small swivel guns. These are pieces small enough for one person to pick up and fire most would have around a 1 inch bore give or take. I can see a swivel with no lock needing a linstock or similar but a flintlock wouldn't. Guns of this size can be handled by 1 or 2 people, how many would of been firing them originally? Would you swab a massive blunderbuss or have charges and a prick? These seem to fit into a void between cannons and small arms. If you brought something like this to an event like PiP what would be the safest way to fire? Im assuming something similar to this, with a 1 inch bore it falls into the cannon class but could still be hefted around by 1 person.

I think that the need for swabbing would depend partly on how it was loaded. With a cannon you put in the cartridge and prick it. There is a chance that pieces of the casing are left behind and that is what you are swabbing and worming for. Smaller pieces are loaded with loose powder and any wadding is on top of the charge.

This piece was probably loaded the same way as a shoulder-fired piece so there would be no powder casing to worry about. That touch hole does not look like it is meant to have a vent prick run through it.

Mark

These are the originals of the ones I will be making. They are aparently from our period.

You can probably find a pre-turned chair leg to make one very similar to the bottom one. All you have to do is slot the end. I would recommend a more V-shaped opening than shown here so that it grips the match properly.

Hey Tattooed John,

The late 17th century had a lot of change going on... But in general, three methods of holding powder/shot would have been used. It MIGHT be surmised that the three each had their years of being dominant and less so, so take what I am going to say with a huge grain of salt....

Closer to the 1650s, I would say bandolier of cartouches. (commonly referred to as apostles).

Then shot boxes, the most solid examples for these are the Phipps shot box of the 1690s, and the Whydah shot box of the earlier 18th century. These are different from the block drilled boxes used by F&IW re-enactors and later 18th century re-enactors. The Phipps and Whydah boxes are leather boxes with internal wooden frame/boxes, but have no drilled block like later belly boxes did. I have seen written records of "cartouche boxes" going back as far as 1668, perhaps they date earlier, but that is the earliest solid date I know of for their use. I think some of the earlier ones were also lined in tin rather than wood.

There is examples of shot bags being used at least back to the (I think) the 1680s. There is an image of a grenadier dating to that decade that has what looks to be a shot bag (but my memory is shakey on that, perhaps someone who remembers better than I do has the image or recalls the date more accurately).

I have used all three at various points, a bandolier, a shot box based on the Phipps/Whydah (which I could fit up to 30 to 40 charges in), and a shot bag based on the grenadier image (which could hold a similar amount to the box, if not more), and find they are all easy to use and good for the period. In fact, for the Searle's Raid event, because the battle is so long, I often wear two of the three above options so I don't run out of ammo half way through.

Hope this helps

There was a lot of overlap with these. Bandoleers were used by foot soldiers from at least the early 16th century past the middle of the 17th century. Cartridge boxes were used by hunters and cavalry. In addition to the leather ones, there are many surviving metal ones in non-sparking metals (copper, brass, silver). These were often half-round. I've seen speculation that they might have held a drilled block for a half dozen charges. I have seen surviving hunter's cartridge boxes from the 16th century. For any event later than Searle's Raid, cartridge boxes or pouches are more appropriate.

From personal experience, loading from a bandoleer is very fast but you are limited to the number of chargers hanging from your bandoleer. If you run out you have to retire from the battle and use a flask to reload. It takes longer to load from paper charges but large quantities can be made ahead of time and it is easy to hand out cartridges. Cartridge boxes are much quieter than bandoleers (the charges rattle).

BTW, the term "apostle" seems to be a 20th century invention. The Sealed Knot in England has been offering a bounty for years to anyone who can document the term to the 17th century and no one has been able to claim it.

=o)

[Grymm minor]

Sorry Sir. There is no evidence at all for tea bricks in Europe or The Americas in the 17th and 18thC sir.

As is/was being discussed here https://pyracy.com/in...483#entry398483 . [/Grymm minor]

The question was what sorts of cargo was valuable.

Tea was a valuable cargo.

Tea was being made into bricks at the time.

So the debate is where this particular form was used during the GAoP. I was quoting someone from a group that claims to be the most accurate pirate group anywhere. Apparently I made a mistake.

That said, I am really offended by all of the "Look what he said! Isn't he an idiot!" on what is at best an obscure subject.

My minions will be waylaying you in a dark alley. My seconds will be calling on you.

thank you dutch......thats actually what i thought.......it seems so strange that sailors would not make learning to swim, a priority.......ESPECIALLY if they had seen natives and africans (who were to them unintelligible and savage) doing so.....though...perhaps the fact that they ccoouullddd swim, was used as further evidence of their inferiority.....dutch, does captain smith make any comments about his feelings on the matter?(this just proves that his book is one that i rreaalllyy should get)

While it seems strange, it only takes a minute to find references from multiple periods of people saying that most sailors didn't swim.

Swimming seems like a useful skill but swimming for pleasure was not something people did very often in the 17th or 18th centuries. People worried about losing the natural oils in the skin and air so they didn't swim and washed seldom. I'm relying on Plimoth Plantation's researchers for this.

A sailor could not swim under normal circumstances. A moving ship would leave a swimmer behind.

Swimming would not be possible for much of the year in many latitudes. The water is too cold.

If I were able to attend, it would be very interesting to know about all the different types of valueable cargoes that were taken, and not just gold and silver, kind of echoing Wes's post. If it could be tied to the shore smugglers and black-market as wes said, that would be really informative for me at least. Hope this is some help.

Bo

Bricks of tea and spices were very valuable. These were often worth more than their weight in gold (keeping in mind that gold is very dense so these would take up more room). Tobacco was also a valuable commodity, especially if sold in Europe instead of the Americas.

Then there were slaves. Pirates who took slave ships often sold off the slaves.

It is probably modern speculation that it prolongs the time needed to drown...

That's exactly the point I was trying to make. There's evidence of sailors who couldn't swim, but also evidence of sailors who could. I don't believe the inability to swim was a deliberate decision based on the desire to drown more quickly.

But a surprising number of sailors did not know how to swim. By some accounts, it was the majority. Being able to swim is handy around water, if only for when you drop something overboard while at anchor so this seems like a conscious decision. Why?

Swimming as a recreation was not popular during the GAoP and because of fears that the skin and hair would lose natural oils. Is that all there is to it? Why did this tradition survive into the 20th century?

A few things to remember about the Vasa - it was a warship, not a pirate ship. Not everyone on it was a sailor.

The same can also be said of HMS Stirling Castle. The main point I want to make though is that I'm not convinced that during the GAoP there was anything much to tell between the appearance of seafarers on a warship and seafarers on a priate ship.

The officers would have dressed in the height of fashion which did include bucket top boots which were in fashion at the time. They were out of fashion by the GAoP.

And THAT is pretty much the main argument for pirates not wearing 'em. They weren't practical, they weren't fashionable, so why would they?

Bucket top boots are really thigh-high boots that have been folded down and back up. When you were riding you would pull them all the way up and they acted like chaps, protecting the leg and pants. When on foot, you would fold them down to show off your fashionable breeches.

I suspect that the folding down had more to do with ease of walking than with the cut of one's breeches, but yes.

Few people swam for sport and many sailors felt that being able to swim would just prolong the time it took them to die if they fell overboard.

I'd like to see a period source for that. I suspect it may be a bit of reverse thinking myth. There is certainly evidence of sailors who could swim, and I don't believe many of them gave too much time over to thinking about the practicalities of being washed overboard.

This is not to say that the ability to swim was universal, or even that widespread, but I don't think that that was the reason.

Here's a stub of an article from the New York Times talking about sailors who cannot swim. The full article failed to open for me.

When John White returned to Roanoke Island to pick up the lost colonists after two years, their long boat was overturned by heavy swells. This book on Roanoke describes the sailors as having to cling to the boat because they could not swim. The captain of the relief ship drowned in that mishap.

It isn't period but here is a quote from 1933 about most sailors not knowing how to swim.

So why don't sailors learn to swim? It is probably modern speculation that it prolongs the time needed to drown but it seems like there must be some reason. I can think of several good reasons for sailors to know how to swim.

we are still comming mate. If i send you a couple of bed rolls can i get them stuffed with straw there ?????? j...

Uhm, if you send them I am sure I can arrange to get some straw to fill them with... It would be a first, most folks just bring modern bedding. Heck, to see it done that hard core, I would likely buy the straw with my own money, if it can be found at this time of year (straw is easy to find in the autumn, but not so much in spring). Are you serious? Or are just putting me on?

Garden stores carry bales for people to spread on newly-planted yards but it is not necessarily sweet-smelling.

We need to be able to stow our bedding while the ship is open so straw-filled bedding and anything else bulky is a problem. People need to keep that in mind when planning to sleep on the ship.

Mark

also, the surgeon that mentioned this seemed very sure about something in it causing black foaming of the mouth...though this makes me wonder......if it might be combined with other side effects, Mission, do you know of any remedies that were combined with the mercury for the great pox? or was it just mercury?

I'm friends with both Jamestown surgeons. I will check with them.

There is yet oonnnnneeee more reason sailors would not wish to wear boots on board a ship.....in the event that you fell overboard.....they would cause you to sink quite quickly........now i have hear it mentioned(though i have not a source on it) that sailors in period, where not quite as good at swimming as one would think......but by all means...lets not speed up your drowning with boots to drag you down......man i love the stirling castle wreck, i wooulldd looovvee to see drawings of what they think the prototype wheel on her looked like....*cough...if anyone has one...*cough......

Few people swam for sport and many sailors felt that being able to swim would just prolong the time it took them to die if they fell overboard. It was unlikely that a sailing ship could turn back or even stop in time to recover a lost sailor.

Thank you,. Foxe, it was more than enough. :)

Of course, when somebody describes a sailor who wears boots (in the books where I had read it or in my games - because I asked about it now and not before, simply because I was curious when I read it on various sites that it is not recommendable, but I forgot to ask until I saw a new sailor described as wearing boots in an application on my game) they are not described what kind of boots.

There is evidence of boots being worn by seafarers. For example, a calf-length boot was recovered from the wreck of the Vasa (1620s, so a bit early), and an ankle-length laced boot was recovered from the wreck of HMS Stirling Castle (1703), and there is evidence of fishermen wearing long boots.

Well, somehow I knew too that sailors wore boots. And this was exactly why I was wondering why several sites said "no boots, but shoes" - which, in my opinion, were for richer, more elegant people. (When I said "boots", I didn't think about Jack Sparrow's, but something simpler and cheaper).

A few things to remember about the Vasa - it was a warship, not a pirate ship. Not everyone on it was a sailor. The officers would have dressed in the height of fashion which did include bucket top boots which were in fashion at the time. They were out of fashion by the GAoP.

Bucket top boots are really thigh-high boots that have been folded down and back up. When you were riding you would pull them all the way up and they acted like chaps, protecting the leg and pants. When on foot, you would fold them down to show off your fashionable breeches.

Not sure if this is the correct spot to post this, if not then my apologies. I enjoy making iPhone apps and one of my first apps that I made was a Pirate Skull Clock. I came up with this goofy way of telling time. The left eye would tell the time in hours, an eye patch on the right would tell whether it was am/pm, and the teeth would tell the time in minutes. It's very simple to understand the time once you learn how to read the clock. Here is a link http://itunes.apple....d398685128?mt=8 Anyway, I figured someone in these forums might find it interesting. If so, just message me and I'll send you a code to download it for free. All I ask is that if you enjoy it then rate it . Thanks.

Any chance of an Android version?

Details? This year's competition was broken down into two time frames... early (all units up till the year 1879) and Modern (all units after the year 1879). Previously the categories had been Cold Steel (all units prior to Black Powder or that relied more on steel than the few guns they had), then Black Powder, then Modern Warfare.

So folks were being judged against more units than in the past and I was told that if the categories had been broken down as they were last year, we would have won the Black Powder, **great big happy grin. I cannot tell you how proud I am of this crewe, they worked their arses off and made it happen better than we ever had**. As t'were, we were beat by two of the most impressive groups out there – La Belle Compagnie, 1380s & Das TeufelsAlpdrücken Fähnlein(The Devil’s Nightmare Regiment), 1529...both units are amazing...but we are already hatching schemes for next year.

This year we did a recruiting party back in England after the Great Storm of 1703. The Silkie's Hyde was in full swing (it has walls now), Grace and Leigh KICKED butt with a phenomenal tavern meal made completely with items that had been stored for the winter and had survived the storm. Made for slim pickings in a lot of cases during that time, even a lot of the cows weren't producing as the grass had been damaged by the salt water... but they made the most fantastic salted brisket of beef or Corned beef with pickled veggies that would have been stored away...

the judges arrived and sat down to eat in the tavern with our Quartermaster(Jack Roberts) and Sailing Master(Dutch) who discussed the current events, (we had been blown off course during the storm and ended up off the coast of St. Malo, some of the crewe had been lost when the prize they were escorting back to England for condemning had sunk, the entire crewe was in mourning, the captain in full mourning,privateering, the war, etc,) Jack Roberts producing an Original London Gazette reporting on two prizes that were up for auction the date of which was actually one week prior to the actual date of the MTA event and and one prize from St. Malo.

Lily Alexander than came and argued over collecting the monies for the bill from the judges and Jack said to put the meal on Captain Sterling's tab. Where upon Silkie came over to discuss Sterling's rather outstanding bills... Grace had her Kitchen completely laid out with all the spices, tools, ingredients etc and taught on each item and how it was used to make the meal. The medieval group down the road from us, ran over twenty minutes after the judges left us to tell us they overheard the judges saying that it was the best corned beef they had ever had! So congrats to our lovely ladies working in the tavern serving and keeping folks abreast of the "latest news", their long hours over the fire and all their amazing research and Mr. Roberts' hand written menu.

ack more to come...just got a call from the High School nurse, snottie #1 needs to go home...

Right then back to details... the third place was for Best Camp Competition which involves activities in the camp that are authentic to the time period and appropriate for the scenario of the camp; appropriate material culture items, such as weaponry, cooking utensils, foodstuffs, clothing etc.; Unit members interacting with visitors on a consistent basis and activities in the camp involve a high level of visitor participation, encouraging them to handle and try objects or activities in the camp; Degree of difficulty which includes 1st or 3rd person interpretation (we do both, but mostly, 1st person) uniforms, clothing, demonstrations, etc..;

and last but not least, is the camp and what we do safe for us and the spectators. Yeah they have safety officers checking everything and everyone out.

One of the best compliments from one of the judges is "Group continues to grow and evolve and is a real asset to MTA."

So hat's off to the crewe!

La Belle Compagnie, 1380s & The Devil’s Nightmare Regiment have been coming for decades and have their presentations down pat. They are tough competition. They are also showy groups with lots of armor and weapons.

I liked the previous breakdowns. It is hard for the black powder era groups to compete with the groups that have full armor. Maybe I can have a word with the organizers.

which pyrates at mta did you think were cool?

Probably the one with the poxy crew.

The Adventure at Charles Town Landing might be a good model for a GAoP ship. It is based on coastal ships being built in America in the 2nd half of the 17th century. It is 73 feet long but only needed a small crew to work it.

I have the sail plan somewhere but you can get the idea from the pictures. It has five sails. Two of them are square sails that would work nicely as shelter.

BTW, since the ship would be on its side, nearly everything would have to be taken off. Anything left on might damage the ship or make it difficult to re-float it.

I have heard of a place in Savannah that was renowned for being such a place but that may be more folklore than truth. Anyway, I appreciate your help, thanks!

The one your probably thinking of is "The Pirate's House" http://www.thepirateshouse.com/

There are lots of rumors and stories about the place, but all post-dates the GAoP period. I've heard MANY argue it was period, but most of those don't even know what period the GAoP most famous pirate lived, or that most of the popularly famous activity was from a 5-8 year period in the later 17-teens. Meanwhile, Oglethrope didn't establish Savannah until the 1733. The present establishment claims to have been around since 1753 as a seaside inn, tavern, and eating establishment (all of which were oft interrelated for most of history-> "taverns" had rooms upstairs and served food as well as drink.

Last I checked . . . 1753 is well after 1722 (death of Bart Roberts) . . .

They tell you that the Pirate House is the oldest building in Savannah and haunted by numerous pirates including Captain Flint from Treasure Island. Actually, the oldest part of the place was a brick gardener's shed and Savannah was founded well after the GAoP. It is a nice place to eat but expensive.

There have been a few marriages performed by captains that were upheld under the principle that a couple who thinks they are married is married. There is speculation that captains could perform marriages in earlier periods but they have not found any documentation, just widespread tradition.

The column is here.

Yes, this is what I knew too. The "principle" is based somewhere on the early Catholic rules, that if two people exchanged wows and he gave her a ring, they were married, even if not in church. (And the answer in the column is based on records after 1850, when there was a civil registry for person, there were other rules than the Middle Age/ Renaissance ones, when no unified civil registry existed.)

So, I guess if there is a widespread tradition, we might as well go with it, as long as it benefits to the storyline...? (My story happens in 1719, and I am still not sure what to do).

I might add that the puritans considered marriages to be a civil ceremony. When Plimoth Plantation recreates a wedding, they do it was a doorstep ceremony officiated by the governor. You can draw your own conclusions from there.

Just a bump here to point out the thread on the auction....

Also to let folks know that there is some small work going on to mix things up a little for this event. We're likely not changing much of the parts that people like, but more adding small things to expand and make the event a bit better! Last weekend Jennie G, Mark G, and I had a short talk at the ship when we visited to assist in cleaning the mud up from the recent flooding that has plagued the area. (Just so everyone knows, there was no real damage, just a mess to clean up to prevent some wood and rope from being rotted out by the dampness of the flooding).

I'd also like to take this opportunity to ask if anyone has suggestions for the event? We'd love to hear what the others that make this event great (and the well wishers that haven't been able to make it) have to say!

Cheers

The ship itself is fine since it floats but the shop was a mess.

Had some friend (who I credit with some GOAP knowledge) state that the ship we call a "Sloop" is properly pronounced "Slew" (sounds similar to stew). I had always thought it was similar sounding to poop. Which is correct?

You are right. Merriam-Webster only gives the one pronunciation. Wikipedia says that it is from the Dutch sloep.