Fox

I don't think it's artistic convention particularly. Many voyages included surgeons (Rogers' definitely did) who were also still barbers at this point (something for the weekend sir?). Many wills and suchlike reference razors, so there is no reason to suppose that the men didn't shave themselves. Blackbeard's beard would hardly have been worth commenting on if seamen habitually wore beards. Also, there are a number of pictures of seamen drawn or painted by men at sea with them, and these can be supposed to represent perhaps the most accurate pictures we have. The Gabriel Bray paintings of the 1770s don't show a single man with a beard (not that I've spotted anyway), and here is another picture from the GAoP, painted from life by Duplessis in about 1700 showing a French seaman half way through a long voyage.

Ah, more flags!! THANKYOU!!! Erm, out of interest, what were the pirates called?

Functional shoe buckles can still be removed and replaced with a lace. I'm not sure exactly when straight lasts were replaced with left and right ones, but I believe that straight shoes were definitely more common in the GAoP. However, two things can easily turn a pair of straight shoes into left and right shoes. Firstly, when you add a buckle to a shoe it has to buckle one way or the other, so by fitting the buckles in opposite directions you give the appearance of having different shoes. Secondly wearing the shoes in will shape them to a certain extent, and wearing them for any length of time will give them a definite shape. I've got 3 or 4 pairs of straight shoes, all of which are now worn in so far that they are uncomfrotable on the "wrong" feet and quite definitely look like left and right shoes. My 18thC buckled pair even more so because of the way they are buckled. Maybe, though it really doesn't look like a walking stick. He may not be using it for support in the picture, but may just be leaning on it (whatever it is). Even if it is a cane I don't think it's just a fancy one, it looks like it has some definite purpose in life, some reason for being the odd shape that it is. I wouldn't like to hazard a guess as to what that is on his arm. Perhaps a colour copy of the picture would make it a bit clearer. He could be some sort of aide (though perhaps a captain's servant is more likely), but from the composition of the picture is seems he's more associated with the people in the shop than the boy on the left is, who has come from outside the shop. Coupled with his slightly higher standard of dress it seems reasonable to conclude that he is probably of higher status than the ship's boy on the left. He could be a servant boy, midshipman, or perhaps the captain's son (or other relative). The fact that he is playing on the floor suggests to me that he is not associated with the other people in the picture in an "official" capacity, ie. probably not a servant or midshipman. Come on Josh, we need more information

I get what you're saying Das. I'd like to see some evidence as to when the island was named. It just seems unlikely that it had anything to do with Blackbeard to me - no evidence for that, just a feeling. The story seems to "neat", the naming of Blackbeard rather than any other pirate sets alarm bells ringing in my mind, and I really don't see any reason why the island should have been named after a Blackbeard incident. If there were some indication that the legend originated before publication of Kingsley's "At Last" it would be better, but it seems most likely that actually the legend only came about after the publication of "Treasure Island". Anyway, without real evidence this could go on forever. Don't worry too much about missing the 6 Nations, all the teams have been playing sub-standard this year. Hardly worth watching.

I swear I didn't mean to imply that YOU did, but that seemed to be a general feeling of possibility running through this thread. Now that's where I gotta disagree with you, kinda. The Blackbeard legend seems inextricably tied up with the song, and if the song has its origins in 1883 then the legend must post-date that. However, we know the island was named earlier. If we take the elements that are common to legend and song out of the legend what are we left with? Blackbeard marooned one or more people on an island somewhere. In that case, why "Dead Man's Chest", or "Dead Chest Island"? Why not just "Dead Man's Island", "Dead Men Island", or "Marooner Island"? If you remove the song from the legend it loses its coherence, and if you don't remove it it loses its credibility. Either way, I don't think the Blackbeard legend has anything to do with either the naming of the island or the song - I think it post-dates Treasure Island. However, the only way to prove it would be to find a pre-Blackbeard reference to the island by its traditional name. Anyone got a 17th century waggoner handy? I'm in complete agreement with you about the song not being a "proper" shanty. I didn't want to say the same myself because I knew someone would say "just because we don't know about it doesn't mean it was never sung..." and someone probably still will. But since you've said it I agree entirely. It's not in any of the major works on shanties (Hugill, Whall etc) and it's not in the Bodlean collection of songs and ballads (which contains literally thousands), and as far as I know there is no mention of such a song anywhere at all prior to RLS. Apart from that, it might have been sung...

If I may apply some logic (bear with me here) to this conundrum: RLS specifically says in his letter of 1884 (quoted by Deacon Frye) "T. I. came out of Kingsley's AT LAST, where I got the Dead Man's Chest " Kingsley's AT LAST, does NOT mention anything about 15 men, drink and the devil, Blackbeard, marooning or anything remotely connected with the song. It only mentions Dead Man's Chest once, in a list of islands. Therefore, Stevenson was NOT influenced in his composition of the song by any myth regarding Blackbeard, neither was he influenced by an earlier song whose existence has escaped us. In short, RLS made up the lines "Fifteen men on the dead man's chest, Yo-ho-ho and a bottle of rum". Stevenson was not aware of any legend regarding Blackbeard marooning 15 men on the island. Therefore one of two things must have happened; either RLS made up a song off the top of his head which just happened to coincide exactly with an historical legend he knew nothing about, OR the legend of Blackbeard marooning 15 men originated after the publication of Treasure Island. OK, so the coincidence theory is just about possible, but you'd have to be pretty desperate I think to really believe it. A further important point: Stevenson wrote "Fifteen men on the dead man's chest..." with no capitalisation. He was not making reference to the island at all! He had merely come across the name and thought it might make a good song. So, unless my logic is all wrong a slightly revised timeline:

Willem van Meiris eh? I'll send you a lollypop, what's your favourite flavour?. Josh, don't s'pose you've got a colour copy?

Kingsley's At Last only mentions "Dead Man's Chest" once, as one of the Virgin Islands and never as a song. The origins of the song lie I'm sure with the fragments provided by RLS and no earlier. It is possible that he was influenced by a legend of Blackbeard, but I suspect that diligent research would probably reveal the legend to have come after the song. I too have known Cindy Vallar online for a number of years and would trust her on the whole to check her facts, but nobody is infallible. Her new site is one of many for example to contain the story of the fictional Charlotte de Berry, and the Johnson article is clearly twaddle. For a start the RN doesn't have, and has never had, "Ensigns", except in the sense of flags. A USN officer making something up might have included RN Ensigns in his story, but a USN officer who had seen the original documents certainly wouldn't. Finally, I think it's probably a bit off the mark to call "Fifteen Men" the most famous shanty ever. Certainly is was used as a shanty by the crew of the Hispaniola, but I don't think it was ever a shanty outside the world of Treasure Island.

Thanks John, if you happened to recall the artist there'd be a lollypop in it for you... if you magnify the picture a bit it looks like it's dated 1709 at the bottom, but I can't make the artist's name out. I'm surprised nobody else has commented on this yet: The little lad on the far left appears to be a ship's boy of some sort. It looks like he's bringing a message to the sea-captain - they are conversing ignored by and ignoring the rest of the room - and he's wearing mariner's cuffs. He's also got bare feet. The fella on the right looks like a sailor to me too: short jacket, mariner's cuff. My question is "what is that he's holding?" Whatever it is it looks very interesting and like it has a definite purpose, but I can't make it out.

John, I meant to ask before when you posted that picture on a different thread: What's the origin of that painting and do you mind if I add it to me image archive?

Disagree all you like. I meant really that in terms of dress, manner, daily habit and suchlike they were just sailors. Certainly there is some evidence pointing towards differing social consciousness - even if it does point to a very limited number of pirates. However, those exceptional ideas did not permeate ALL pirates, and certainly didn't govern the greater part of anyone's daily lives, in which they were to all intents and purposes seamen. They came from the same places, the same background, underwent the same hardships and enjoyed the same luxuries, did the same jobs and hoped for the same benefits at the ends of it. Generally speaking of course

A small point I know, but an important one to me: I don't think "Mythtory" says anything about Easton, in fact I'm sure it doesn't

Which just goes to show what has been said on a number of other threads on a number of different subjects. Pirates were just seamen. They led slightly different lives perhaps, but in their dress and mannerisms they were essentially the same people as pirates as they had been maybe only weeks previously as legitimate seamen. There was no RN uniform, and there was certainly no pirate "fashion" code. They both did the same job, they both lived in similar conditions. In many cases, one became the other. To all intents and purposes, they looked pretty much the same.

Thankyou Mission for that vote of confidence Now, if you expand your search to include general music of the 1680-1730 period as opposed to specifically sea-songs then the choice is almost limitless. I've probably got a couple of thousand pages or more of music popular in that period sitting on shelves in my house, and that's just a fraction of what's available.

OK, forgive me if I come across as a long-winded pretentious pedant. First of all Moll Flanders was not a real pirate, or a fictional one. She was a fictional character created by Daniel Defoe in his novel of that name, but she was a gentlewoman of fortune, not a pirate. At least two film versions already exist, one starring Robin Wright-Pennas Moll, and the other a (superior in my opinion) TV version starring Alex Kingston. Second, there is a world of difference between finding authentic pirate music and finding music which the general viewing public would recognise as piratical. I can help with the former, but the latter is where you need to shine yourself. May I suggest as research material for the latter that you watch the movies "Cutthroat Island" and "Treasure Island" (the Charlton Heston version). TI particularly has a fantastic score. In terms of authentic pirate music there are a decent number of sea-songs from the period which would almost certainly have been popular amongst all seafarers, including pirates. There are also a very small number of songs which we know come from the right period which are about pirates. They were not necessarily any more popular amongst pirates than the others, but would lend a certain piratical feel. You might like to check out: Ward the Pirate The Ballad of Captain Kidd One version of High Barbaree probably dates to the 1680s Henry Martin In addition I have two sets of words for period songs about Henry Avery, but no tune for either. For general period sea-songs you might start with : The Golden Vanity Maid of Amsterdam (only probably period - good tune though) Admiral Benbow (one version) Come Loose Every Sail to the Breeze A Soldier and a Sailor I also have a whole mass of period songs available, some with and some without tunes. If you could let me know what kind of thing you'd be looking for I can post more here. In the meantime, one of my favourites:

The spelling out of messages by flags to be found in O'Brien books would not be authentic for the period you're talking about. I believe numeric flag codes were not introduced into the Royal Navy until 1799/1800 (the Popham code), thought the East India Company had been using them somewhat earlier.

Fair enough, I wasn't really suggesting that the Roebuck DJ was THE DJ, I was just genuinely intrigued as to whether you had a definite reason for saying he wasn't. I'm sure I've mentioned this before but in case I haven't, or in case it was somewhere else: I went to school with the daughter of Davy Jones from the Monkees. FWIW, neither of us wore earrings at school.

Royal Navy flag signal books from the late 17th century are still extant. Here's a page from the 1672 book: The only record of pirate signalling that I can think of off the top of my head is a description from the possibly fictional George Roberts account which speaks of Low hoisting a green flag with a yellow figure caryying a trumpet to call his men to a council.

The 1730 slops contract calls for "thread buttons" on the kersey jackets. What exactly is meant by that is debateable. It looks to me like the fella on the far left also has his hat on "backwards", also the man second from right. The rest all appear to be wearing round hats (a good bridge then between the Bonny and Read pictures and the Guayacil engravings), so it is in fact 100% backward cocked hats. By comparison I'd say that at least 2 of the Guayacil men have their hats backwards, one definitely has his hat facing forwards, one is debateable but I think has it backwards and 3 have taken their hats off so we can't tell. I'm not counting the officer. I'd say that the first, second and fifth men from the left in this picture definitely have mariners' cuffs on the jackets, but it's difficult to tell on the others, they could just be turned back GoF, why haven't you commented yet on the picture I posted of a black seaman? I've been awaiting your response with anticipation

Thanks for that Josh!

I was debating whether to start a new thread with this picture or whether to tack it onto this one. The re-awakening of interest in this thread has decided me. The British Sailors' Loyal Toast 1738 I find this picture interesting because it shows seamen in dress essentially similar to that depicted in the Guayacil engraving - except for the length of the trousers. Basically it shows a continuity of fashion amongst English seamen through the major part of the GAoP. Since some of the detail is slightly better in this second picture perhaps we might add it to the melting pot.

'Fraid I don't have a Dictionary of English Folklore to hand but I do have a copy of Brewer's Dicionary of Phrase and Fable published in 1870 which is perhaps the definitive work. He gives no definition for "Ear ring" or "Earring", but: You'll notice the quite startling lack of mentions of seamen, yet if seamen had traditionally worn earrings for <delete as applicable> paying for their funeral/seasickness/mark their rounding the horn/etc, that's exactly the kind of thing Brewer was writing about Out of interest (and not because I'm argumentative) how do you know that Davy Jones of the Roebuck isn't THE Davy Jones? When do mentions of Davy Jones' locker begin?

Ah, but unlike the earring thing you've got the GAoP period evidence you sought

Actually, if working from the Admiralty slop contracts it can be pushed a little further back, the 1702 contract specifies "Striped suits lined with canvas" amongst other things. I think, given that we have written evidence of patterned fabrics from at least 1689 (Torrington's arms) and pictoral from at least 1693 (The England's Safety frontispiece), plus the slop contracts evidence from 1702 onwards it's probably fair to conclude that patterned fabric, checks and stripes, would be authentic for the GAoP. In fact the evidence for patterned fabrics stretches way back either side. Checkered and striped fabric remnants were found on the Mary Rose (1545), and San Juan (c.1565) shipwrecks, and pictures of seamen in striped clothing can be found right through the 18th century and well into the 19th at least.

Yeah, they do seem to be basing their identification of the skeltons as sailors on the fact they had earrings: Now, if they'd found a couple of fids and a boathook in the graves, or even skeletal evidence similar to that found on "Seaman Swan" I'd be convinced, but to decide the skeletons are seamen because they've got earrings seems to be speculation of the wildest and most unfounded sort. Earrings were still in fashion for European men in 1605, anyone might have worn them and their presence proves absolutely nothing. I believe that one of the master's mates (or possibly the master, my memory fails me) on the Roebuck was one Davy Jones.