Fox

Thanks to Mad Mike for reminding me on another board: The stores list for Woodes Rogers jaunt around the globe included "Three boxes of Soape".

You might be right, but I'm pretty sure that it's a waistcoat. It's difficult to tell with the picture this size but the material is definitely the same as that of the waistcoat at the back. I think the reason no buttons are visible is simply the way he's standing and the way the outer garment is falling.

Looks like a pewter (or silver) goblet with a handle to me. I think what he's wearing is a ticking waistcoat from the official slops - it's the same as they guy's in the brown hat in the background - underneath a sleeveless waistcoat.

Lookin' good Patrick, nice work!

Just a further note on the construction of pirate flags: One of Thomas Cocklyn's flags was described by a crew member as "A Black fflag...on ye one side of which was painted the skeleton of ane Human body such as Death used to be Represented by..."

I meant sorry 'cos I know how much you hate jackets The goblets coul be silver, but I think if I were an ale-house keeper I'd rather trust a bunch of seamen with my glass-ware than my silver-ware... Yes, it's a kitty. I think they are slippers that Boyne is wearing, his whole outfit speaks of informality and relaxation, hence, no hats on three of the officers - the figures at the back are of a junior rank I think and are thus not so inclined to be that informal. The sashes I think are being worn by officers (I think the figure on the front-left is probably an officer like a master or something similar), so that's not so surprising. In my picture collection I now have 54 pictures showing 100 seamen from 1650-1750, if you include the earlier and later period pictures too (15th century-1820) there are 94 pictures showing 189 seamen. You know what? Not a single earring in evidence. I probably have as many more pictures waiting to be put online, and not one of them has an earring either. I faithfully promise that as soon as I find a single picture of a seaman in an earring dating from 1680-1740 I will post it immediately.

I'm happy to discuss whatever you like about the pictures I think you'll find that "in company" the wearing of hats and coats was pretty standard (sorry Das) probably until the 19th century. It's like we were discussing about jackets - you might walk around your home in a shirt and bare head, just like you might walk around your home now in your underwear, but you wouldn't go down the pub like that! A man might take his shirt off nowadays to dig the garden or tarmac a road, but he wouldn't "go out" without putting a shirt on. With regards to the drinking vessels; pint tankards for beer or cider, but goblets (possibly pewter, possibly glass) for wine and punch etc. Given the way this seems to be going (hats, coats and punchbowls...) I think perhaps the next picture to throw in is this interior scene of Captain the Viscount Boyne's cabin, painted in 1731 by Bartolomeo Nazari.

I rather enjoyed the Dissecting threads so I hope nobody minds me starting another. I though rather than look at one picutre specifically it might be good to look at a group of pictures with a common theme for comparison. Since I have a handful to hand I thought British Seamen of the 1730s might be a good start. Here's two to start us off, I'll add more in as we go on. The British Sailor's Loyal Toast, 1738. Detail from a sketch of Plymouth Harbour, 1735.

Since they're middies washing their shirts I think "peas" water is unlikely - it would turn their white shirts green. "Piss" water is perhaps more likely or maybe something completely different from either. Hmmm, woman in bed with a bottle of rum - what could be more tempting?

Patrick, I LOVE the outfit, particularly the hat! I'm not convinced that the buccaneers in the picture aren't bare legged - I reckon they are, but experimentation may suggest otherwise. I think you're dead right about the little extras making all the difference to the kit; for example, I think just swapping the large brimmed hat in the first pics for the peaked hat in the second set will completely change the outfit from what might have been construed as bad "Reni" gear to an absolutely unique authentic buccaneer outfit. Keep going man! With regards to "snapsacks", I think the answer is whatever you want it to be. The debate has been raging in ECW circles for years over whether a snapsack is a square flat bag with a shoulder strap worn on the side, or whether it's a long round "sausage" bag worn diagonally across the back. I think personally that unless anyone comes up with a period picture labelled "snapsack" it could probably mean either. At the end of the day it's a sack you keep your snap in. What shape is a "lunch box" nowadays?

Hi Das, the first quote I gave came from Butler's "Dialogues", written in 1620something and published in 1685, the second came from one of William Monson's Tracts, written about the same time as Butler and published at various dates - I was quoting from the 1912 NRS collected edition (vol III). The bit you quoted and couldn't remember the origin of came from Butler's Dialogues (see my first quotation). It's difficult to tell exactly what kind of ship they were talking about; both Butler and Monson served on privateers and Navy vessels, and Butler probably had a bit of the pirate in him too. Since the day to day procedures of ships probably didn't vary all that much it's probably safe to assume they were writing about English ships in general. Exactly what "peas water" was I wouldn't like to say without knowning the full context of the quote. It could be the water from the peas, but it might also be perhaps "piss water", a reference to the use of urine as a cleanser you mention.

Almost impossible to believe I'd say! May I enquire as to the source for that statement and to what period it pertains? In the 20 year period between 1795 and 1815, for only 5 years was the strength of the Royal Navy less than 100,000 men - the lowest point was 1803 when 67,148 men were mustered, while at the other end of the scale 147,087 men were mustered in 1813. Even when the men in the merchant service are taken into account to suggest that 100,000 men died of disease p.a. would mean that Britain couldn't possibly hope to maintain its population of seamen. Surely it must be a misprint? Source for the numbers is Rodger, Command of the Ocean p. 639.

You might try The Smuggler's Century: The Story of Smuggling on the Essex Coast, 1730-1830, by Hervey Benham. I don't have a copy myself but I saw a copy last year (or the year before) and it looked fairly fantastic. I have a couple of books on West Country smugglers, but nothing on East coast men beyond the odd mention. Was there some particular information you were after or just general interest? FWIW, for fictional smugglers of Kent you can't beat the Dr Syn stories.

In The Buccaneer Project I wrote: To which Belladonna Bess replied; So I thought that rather than sidetracking Patrick's thread the topic probably deserved one of its own. Yes Bess, I do have further information, what particularly were you after? Would this quote from the 17th century Monson be good to go on with? *ie, he cleaned the crap off the side of the ship below the heads. I have a reference somewhere to the liar on a late 17th century ship, but I can't lay my hands on it immediately. In the later refenence it was suggested that the liar might also be proclaimed as the first person who swore on a Monday. I just get this image of all the seamen going around stamping on each other's toes every Monday morning in the hope of making a unpopular crew-member swear first. Bit early I know, but give me a couple of hours and I'll find a photo to post of the folding manicure set found on the Mary Rose. With regards to Dampier, I think the unusual thing is not that they were washing, but that they were washing twice a day. THAT would have been unusual!

I think the book you really need to get hold of is "The Cottage Economy" by William Cobbett. It was originally published in 1821-2, and Cobbett lived at Botley in Hampshire, which is about two thirds of the way between Portsmouth and Southampton. If you want to know about food in Southampton in the early 19th century there is absolutely no better source. It's available from Amazon. Personally I LOVE Lardy cake, which I am informed is a Hampshire recipe. No idea how you make it I'm afraid but the way you eat it is to stick it in the oven for 10 minutes til it goes all sticky then scoff down the whole thing until you think you're going to barf, then sit back in a comfy chair with a huge contented smile and feel yourself getting fatter... If it's not a rude question may I enquire what the interest with Southampton is? I live about 16 miles away and the wench is at Uni there.

Hmmm, I'd be in favour of a seperate costume board - not to fragment the board but to concentrate the number of threads on clothing into one place. At the moment questions of an academic nature about the history of clothing belong in Captain Twill, while questions on how to make or buy such clothing belong in Plunder, whereas, IMHO, the second is a fairly logical extension of the first (or indeed vice versa). Which forum would the question"Which costume tailor is the most historically accurate?" belong? However, I appear to be coming late onto this one and casting a losing vote. For the record, thanks for the vote of confidence GOF, but I don't think I'd like to be a mod - I already do it on two other boards and it's nice to come here and not worry about what other people are doing.

On the whole, and contrary to popular belief seafarers of the buccaneer age DID think washing was a good idea. From Butler's Dialogues, written in the early 17th century, but published in 1685.

GOF, do you mean this picture of Blackbeard? [Edit: The original image is gone, but I believe this is the image Ed is referring to. Mission. 7/8/14] This one dates from 1734, considerably post-dating the Anstis, Bonny and Read pictures showing trousers from the Dutch ed. of the General History, and the "Guayacil" engravings published in 1712. Or do you know of an earlier BB picture showing trousers? I wonder if the shoes in Josh's latest fantastic offering are sandals. The one on the right foot looks like an Anglo-Saxon turn shoe to me, but his left shoe looks just like a sandal. I've outlined in red what I see when I look at that picture. Could this be the elusive GAoP sandal we've all been wondering about? Josh, do you mind if I add this one to my online collection?

Difficult to tell but it's not impossible. Mediterranean seamen had a lot of fashions that weren't seen elsewhere, and at the time of that painting the Ottoman Empire had been hammering on the back door to Europe for a century or three, so it's not impossible to see Arab fashions or possibly even Arab seamen in Venetian painting of that period. It has been suggested that the garments this fellow is wearing are Turkish in style, and he's an English merchant captain. If an Englishman can wear Arab dress then I'm sure a Venetian could. [Edit: The original image was missing. I believe this was the one Ed was originally showing, although I am prepared to be wrong as the title is different. Mission. 7/8/14] English Merchant Captain, by John Vanderbank, circa 1730.

I assumed Patrick was getting into his role by beginning with authentic 17th century spelling?

Nice pictures Josh, I particularly love the jacket the blue-slop man is wearing. Is that a hoodie? I think you're probably right about the sashes being a sign of them being either gondoliers or Italian. Other period pictures of seamen just don't show sashes very often, and when they do come up they tend to come up all in a group. For example, I can think of four pictures of French seamen wearing sashes from around 1700, but none of English seamen. I suspect this is the same sort of thing, indicative of a fashion for those particular people rather than river-boatmen generally. Who's up next?

An excellent resource for later RN, thanks for posting that!

Jewellery as in personal adornment as opposed to military uniform item. Many items worn for personal ornamentation were sewn onto garments prior to the invention of safety pins and badge pins. Has anyone yet emailed the NMM about this?

Hey Das, where were you reading the standing orders for marines (who weren't "Royal" until 1802 FWIW)? Depending on how early the practice of Marine officers wearing a death's head badge goes back that might be an answer. Edward Foxe's 3rd Marines raised in 1702 wore green facings, as did the 6th Marine regiment raised in 1739 as well as Spottiswoode's Marines raised in the colonies in 1739. From 1755 the Marines all had white facings, but if the skull and cross-bones buttons went back earlier then it could be a Marine badge. 'Course, I'm sure the NMM could tell us exactly what it was. Since they have it classified as jewellery rather than uniform that throws some doubt on the military possibilities.

And another one for you The British Hercules 1737