Fox

Hi all, Can anyone help me out with a hunch I'm trying to chase? I need to know, relatively exactly (well, more exact than "off the African coast") where Bart Roberts and his consorts were operating in mid-late August until the end of September 1721. Cheers

… occasioned by a Tragical Spectacle, in a Number of Miserables under a Sentence of Death for Piracy, etc. Boston, 1704. - by Cotton Mather. Anyone got access to a copy?

This may not fit, depending on your background, and is a little late (1801) but it made me chuckle. In the late 18th century the English sea-dog Sir Sidney Smith was on half pay, unemployed by the Royal Navy in which he was a captain. On his own initiative and from his own purse he fitted a ship and joined the war against Napoleon in the Med. He was remarkably successful, and his greatest victory, the defence of Acre against the French caused Napoleon himself to say of him "that man made me miss my destiny". Despite his success, or perhaps because of it, and for other reasons Smith was never a very popular officer in general but he did make one or two good friends. With the end of Napoleon's Egyptian campaign Smith was recalled to England. One of his friends, General Doyle, was sad to see him go and wrote him a letter shortly before his departure, of which the following is an extract.

If I wasn't so lazy I'd go through Silver's Paradoxes of Defence to find the quote, but for now I'll paraphrase. He says something like "Italian fencing is all very well and looks good at court, but the Italians are shit soldiers and fencing never won a fight. In an actual fight what you want to do is..." OK, so the question stands, how many people would have read Silver's book? but it does show that the thought is not just a modern one.

Well that was quick of me! You can get Di Grassi Here I'll try to get the Paradoxes up soon.

If lots of people are going to want them then I think the best thing I can do is to stick 'em on the web and let folks download them. Might take me a day or two, but I'll try to get it done this week then post the link here. That OK with you chaps?

William, if you are translating di Grassi as you go would you find it easier if I emailed you a copy of : Giacomo DiGrassi His True Art of Defense, plainly teaching by infallible Demonstrations, apt Figures and perfect Rules the manner and form how a man without other Teacher or Master may handle all sorts of Weapons aswell offensive as defensive: With a Treatise Of Deceit or Falsing: And with a way or Means by private Industry to obtain Strength, Judgement, and Activity 1594 the sixteenth century translation into English as a Word document? I also have a Word copy of George Silver's Paradoxes of Defence. Unfortunately the pictures are missing, but there were less than half a dozen in the original and the text is intact.

I will grant, quite happily, that the Pirate-Templar link is every bit as real as the pirate-ninja conflict.

Not in the slightest! I'd really love the stories to be true, that's why I asked if Horwood and Butts gave any actual sources. On the other hand, if we search and search in all the right places and still turn up zilch (as has happened so far - no sign of them in Poole, Newgate or Le Havre, no records of their apparently monumental piracies, certain elements of their story obivously false or erroneous...) then we can say with a reasonable degree of certainty that the whole thing is a fiction and consign it to the Gaspar/Shirland pile... Hunt away, and please turn something up!

I'm going to be making myself a buccaneer outfit over the winter based on these guys I'll definitely be making use of your experience Patrick

Weeeell, whenever I've managed to ask someone who espouses the Templar/Jolly Roger link what the actual evidence is the answer is almost always the same. An assurance that the evidence exists, but nobody seems to know (or is prepared to say at any rate) what or where this evidence is. You believe it? Nope, me neither. Of course, since the Jolly Roger connection is one of the corner stones of the whole Pirate-Templar link if we discount it then we might have to admit that the whole attractive Templar-Pirate "history" is just a load of sham and hogwash, and that would be very sad. Here's to decent historical research winning the day.

Thanks RR! Personally I suspect that the information on the Cobhams isn't anywhere. There doesn't seem to be any evidence they actually existed until Gosse wrote about them in the 30s. Just thought maybe if they quoted sources... never mind.

I've not seen anything reliable at all about broken points, and although the reference I saw to them was about the 16th century I'm not at all sure that it ever happened. If I can find the reference again I'll see if it's sourced, but I can't even remember where I read it. Now, would someone be kind enough to enlighten me as to sheep's foot points?

But does it give any sources Rumba?

Does it give any sources for the Cobham story Rumba?

Bloomin' good question! I don't recall ever having specifically seen a lanyard, or evidence of a lanyard from that period, and a quick hunt through the pictures I have to hand certainly doesn't show any. Butler doesn't mention lanyards and I can't think off-hand of any specifically mentioned in Monson or Hakluyt. On the other hand, I have a lanyard (attached to my belt rather than round my neck) on my working knife cos it's flipping sensible, especially in the boat or working aloft. They had the technology and they weren't stupid, but no, I can't off-hand find any positive evidence. FWIW, I understand that the breaking off of dagger points was not to reduce fighting so much as to reduce the damage caused by fights. If I slash you it hurts, if I stab you then you die. I don't recall any specific evidence but I'm pretty sure I first heard about this in connection with Tudor seamen.

Oops, my bad. Richard Hawkins was captured by Spriggs and described his flags, not George Roberts. Roberts described one of Low's flags... You're welcome Tempest.

It is certainly true that plain red and black flags pre-date "jolly rogers", Drake for example is known to have flown black flags at the seige of Cartagena in 1585, and at least one ship in the English fleet of 1588 had aboard a "bluddey flagge". What isn't certain is the continuity between these early flags and later pirate flags. The history of the red flag can be traced through most of the 17th century but the case for black flags is weaker. For example, although there are several records of Caribbean buccaneers flying red flags I have not yet found one flying a black flag. The question of the meanings of flags is an interesting one. George Roberts, who was captured by Spriggs, certainly says that the black flag is one of intimidation and the red flag was a signal of no quarter. On the other hand, at least one other source suggests that actually a black flag was considered more terrifying. On the whole though, most sources back up the notion that black flags were used for identification and intimidation, and that red meant no quarter. As to the origin of the phrase "jolly roger", the joli rouge theory is perhaps the most likely on the face of it, but the best supported by the evidence is that the term comes from "Old Roger", meaning the devil. The term "Old Roger" to describe a pirate flag predates "jolly roger" by about 20 years, and if indeed "Old Roger" is the older term then it cannot have derived from "joli rouge", or the somewhat ridiculous idea of "Ali Rajah".

These are genuine historical jolly rogers which contain devices other than the normal ones found on the web, maybe they might give you some ideas.

Puts spoil-sport hat on yet again Alas, the supposed link between Templars and pirates is fanciful and speculative at best. Despite many claims that the Templars used the skull and cross-bones as a flag there has yet to be produced one single piece of evidence to support them. Although David Hatcher Childress in his book "Pirates and the Lost Templar Fleet" tries to make a case for the "jolly roger" originating with the Templars his theory is based on well... nothing. There's no real reason at all to suppose that the famous pirate flag was any older than the late 17th century. As a motif the skull and cross bones is certainly older, but there is no continuity between say, medieval gravestones and pirate flags other than an obvious symbol of mortality. What was your original line of enquiry? I'm currently involved in seriously researching pirate flags, I may be able to help.

Looks fantastic Patrick, nice work!

Certainly by 1617 when Pieter Van Den Keere published his map "Leo Belgicus" with this fellow in the corner. However, a boathook is a very simple yet practical tool, eminently suited to its purpose. I can't imagine working for long in a boat without one (or two), I'd certainly be lost without mine. Therefore I'd imagine that they were probably around long before 1617, but it might take me a day or two to find a picture...

Traditionally a boat carries two boathooks, one long one with a spike and hook for the bow and a shorter one with two hooks in the stern. Most modern ones tend only to have the two hooks and even if you can find a proper bow-boat hook it'll probably be plastic with a really small spike and a bauble on the end so poor idiots don't hurt themselves. At a recent event a boat owning member of the public pointed to my boathook and said to his wife "THAT'S what I need for keeping those f*****g inflatables out of my way..." I'm afraid I don't have any practical suggestions for where to find a decent one except to keep your eyes open for a real antique one or to get one specially made. A re-enactor blacksmith made mine at an event.

Hurricaine, do you mean something like this? That's a boathook rather than a boarding pike so perhaps a search for "boathook" might produce better results. At the battle of La Hogue in the early 1690s the English sent boats into the harbour to burn the French fleet. The fighting was fierce as the French tried to fight off the assault and the bow-man in one of the English boats actually pulled a French cavalryman off his horse and off the quay with his boathook. On the other hand one should never use them to rescue one's girlfriend's straw hat that's fallen overboard...

Also, define "boarding pike". As far as I know there was no standard pattern for boarding pikes until the early 19th century, and even if there was would pirates have used them? The obvious thing we think of with regards to boarding pikes is triangular in section, like a Victorian lance head, but there's no reason why a pirate's boarding pike shouldn't be flat or diamond section. I KNOW I've seen small spear and pike heads for sale on the net. One 17th century Scandinavian boarding pike I've seen even had wings (possibly evolved from a boar-spear or Saxon winged spear). I bought a dark-age winged spear that was almost identical and I'm pretty sure I've seen them on the net too. Happy hunting