Fox

Welcome Joe, I don't know of any Cornish groups, but if you fancy coming along to the South West Pirate Festival at Morwellham later in the year you'd have a chance to meet up with other pirates and maybe find a group that suits you.

Fruit goes off really quickly, so there's no point taking much of it if any. The lemon juice in grog is to give the seamen a bit of fruit in their diet. Incidentally, that reminds me of something else I was going to write earlier. Grog is a later drink: although people had probably been watering rum down before it was official the name "grog" didnt take until the 1740s when Admiral Vernon ("Old Grogram") issued orders for watering the rum. Also, until the mid-18thC rum was not the standard mariners' drink it later became, but was only one of several spirits - the preferred one of which seems to have been brandy. Instead of grog the common sailors' drink of the GAoP was called "flip", which was basically a mix of beer, spirits, and sugar. The exact mix and the nature of the spirits depended on availability.

Meanie Anyway, Hawkyns said to be nice, and I'm gonna tell on you now... You're just jealous 'cos he's going to meet me before you do

Tarred canvas smock.

By the time I was about 17 I'd pretty much done most of my childish ambitions (fly a plane, jump off a big cliff, be the front man in a rock band, shoot someone in the arse with an air-rifle...) Now I've lost most of my ambition, there's only one thing left, and it's kinda geeky. One day, I want to open a good history book and be flicking through the references and see my name. Oh, and marry the other half, get her sprogged up, that kinda thing...(who says romance is dead?) But my real aim in life, may sound kinda corny but I really believe in it, I just want to leave the world in a slightly better state than I found it in. :)

They could be replacements?

Henceforth I shall be making all my buttons from cheese. It's cheaper than brass, less poisonous than lead and historically documentable (see Jib's food thread)

Dampier of course talks about "doughboys", what we would call dumplings. Samuel Pepys wrote: Unfortunately, the actual supply of food to the men in the Navy was the province of the pursers, who were rarely such honest or efficient men as Pepys. ********************************************************** In the chapter on sea-cooks in Ned Ward's satirical "Wooden World" he mentions lobscouse, and lots of fats and greases. In the chapter on the seaman Ward speaks of "rusty pork" and gives a wonderful description of the seaman's table manners: In the chapter on the Purser Ward mentions rotten peas and musty oatmeal, salt flesh meat, burgoo, ************************************************************ The 17thC ballad "The Saylor's Complaint, or the true character of the purser of a ship" was clearly written by a seaman and contains some wonderfully descriptive lines about food. ...gives us mutty meat With Biscuit that’s moldy and hard stinking cheese And Pork fat in pounds... His Oat-meal or Grout, known by the name Burgoo Is fitting for nothing but to make sailors spew His Brins no better than common kitchen-grease The sailors are fear’d to eat with those pease Such beef-fat [illegible] we constantly use *********************************************************** Woodes Rogers' storeslist for his circumnavigation included (amongst many other things): four Barrells of Beefe four Hogsheads of Pork eighty two ferkins of Butter six hundred weight of Cheese Eighteen Butts of Beere Twelve Barrells of Oatmeale Three Hogsheads of Vinegar ************************************************************ A 1761 document entitled "An appeal to the public...to prevent the Navy of England being supplied with pernicious Provisions" is useful because it lists various food stuffs then common on ships, together with exactly what was wrong with them: Flour ("devoured by weevils") Bread ("full of black-headed maggots") Beer ("stunk as abominably as the foul stagnant water which is pumped out of many cellars") Pork ("when boiled it wasted away to mere rags and crumbs...it was also so nauseous that it made the men sick who did eat of it") And I had to save this 'til last. Joshua Red, are you reading this? if you are then I hope it makes you laugh as much as it did me... ************************************************************ A bit late I know, but the standard ration for a seaman in the RN in Nelson's day was 1 gallon of beer and 1lb of bread per day, 2lbs of beef on Tuesday and Saturday, 1lb of pork Sunday and Thursday, 1/2 pint of peas Sunday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday, a pint of oatmeal Monday, Wednesday and Friday, 4oz of cheese and 2oz butter Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Hope it helps *Forks were banned in the Royal Navy until 1897.

Well, that's what I'd always thought, but this book I'm reading (and he quotes extensively from primary sources) makes it clear that in some of these cases at least the punishment was commuted to transportation instead of death. There was even a class of young men who visited Newgate specifically to impregnate women awaiting trial on a capital charge - which would be pointless if it was only a postponement of the inevitable. Since English colonies were subject ot English law it made me wonder what happened to people already in America.

I don't off-hand have any primary sources for this, but the secondary sources I've looked at seem to be in agreement that Sir Charles Douglas not only urged the use of flintlock on RN guns, but also played a hand in developing them. If this is the case then you won't find any earlier sources for civilian use. Your point about the government forces being the last to adopt new technology is a reasonable one, but the issue here is that in 1778 when Douglas first suggested cannon flintlocks the government didn't want them. He then privately equipped his own ship with them and only 12 years later the the RN adopt them. Almost an identical parallel with the story of the Henry rifle. First reference 1778, government adoption 1790.

Just been reading about a London pickpocket named Moll King, whose life bears a number of similarities to Moll Flanders' (That's Ned's wayward sister...). When she was committed to Newgate in 1719-20 awaiting transportation to the colonies one of her fellow prisoners was a woman named Sarah Wells, alias "Callico" Sarah. In late 1722 both women had returned from America, and both were captured again and put into Newgate together. In 1723 they were both transported again. Anyway...rambling on... What I'm really posting about is this: Moll King was originally sentenced to transportation because she had been sentenced to death but pleaded her belly. She was kept in prison until a few weeks after she had given birth then sailed for Annapolis. This was in the same year that Anne Bonny and Mary Read (back to Calico associates) were both sentenced to death and pleaded their bellies. BUT Bonny and Read were already in the Americas. Do any of the fine folks here know what the usual form was when a condemned woman in the Americas pleaded her belly? Was she sent to work on a plantation, as though she had been transported? Or something else?

I'm a sort of freelance historian. I write magazine articles and books (got me history of pirate flags coming out this year ) I do interpretation work in various museums and historic sites, and I work occasionally with museums on their artefacts. Was a museum/ship curator for three years. I do education work, sometimes in schools but mostly through museums and historic sites. I work as an advisor for TV sometimes (dunno if anything I've worked on gets shown in the States - did you guys get a series called "Battlefield Britain"?) I've had some really crappy jobs in the past, and some better paid ones than what I'm earning now, but I'm not starving and I love my work. I have a mate who does education work, particularly science, but he uses history as a way of teaching stuff. The reason I mention him is because he does blow stuff up to teach physics.

I suspect you probably can, but I'm more at home with books and papers than tecknolejy...

If the point is to learn the music and words to sea shanties then I heartily recommend The Contemplator's Sea Shanty page which has lyrics and midi files, and doesn't cost a dime

Well, I've definitely seen late 17thC paper tailors' pattern so I don't see any reason why the slop makers shouldn't have had them - don't see any reason why they should either... I really posted the link as a curiosity item. It made me chuckle to think that people were making their patterns out of newspaper 250 years ago too

Only been through the divorce mill once. I won't lie and pretend it was easy, but it sure does get easier with time. Once we'd actually got to the stage of the divorce we both knew where we were and where we were going, so in many ways it was the months between the marriage breaking down and the divorce which was the hardest. We were fairly lucky, we had no kids and our stuff was easy to divide, so there was no disagreement. And yeah, trips to the sea is no bad thing. I went a bit wild, became a teenager again, drank anything put in front of me and slept with everyone that didn't say no. Moving back to the sea sorted me out overnight. On the subject of kids though, my girlfirend's parents were divorced when she was about 4, and her stepdad (a complete shit) insisted that contact was broken between the kids and their father. This very weekend she has gone to see her real dad for the first time in 16 years, and they've had a wonderful time, memories flooded back, and they knew instantly they saw each other what they'd missed and how much they still loved one another after all these years. Kids never forget their love for their parents, even if they don't see them for 16 years. You'll be fine Matt and whatever happens your daughter will always love you. Have a beer mate.

A couple of years back I was privileged anough to be allowed access to a 17thC seaman's suit in the Museum of London, which consisted of tarred doublet and breeches. The thing with the tar was that it was very thin, it hardly impeded the cloth at all. So, based on that I tried a few different ways of tarring fabric. What I found worked well was a mix of black bitumin paint (which is basically thin tar) and turpentine, which I then painted on wool and canvas. The effect is a waterproof coat which looks and feels like tar, and what's more it smell's like tar. I don't know exactly how they did it originally, but they had the materials to do it my way, and the end result is the same, so I reckon I'm pretty close. For stiff hats I tend to use a lot less turps in the mix, if any. I've never deliberately set fire to my tarred gear, but I've certainly never had any problems with black powder or fires. But don't take my word for it, you've got me worried now...

Please yourself really. Personally I like to wear my coat over my sword, with the sword sticking out the side and rear vents of the coat. The sword worn under the coat Admiral Sir John Norris by George Knapton, 1735 Captain Edward England, 1734 The sword worn under the waistcoat Admiral Fitzroy Henry Lee, circa 1725 A sword belt worn over the coat Admiral Sir John Jennings, by Kneller, 1708-9 Isaac Townsend? pre 1707 Admiral Benbow, by Kneller, 1701 Baldrick worn over the coat Jack Rackham, 1725

On paper patterns: While looking for somehting completely different I just found this from the Concealed Garments site. A bit late, but patterns cut from newspaper (hey, I do that!) in 1752.

I've just been reading a fascinating book about Jonathan Wild, self styled "Thief-taker General" in the early 18th century. I suspect there may be a few more threads arising once I've finished it. Anyway, there's a reference to " Mr Wild, in his Callimancoe Night-gown". The author of the book says that callimanco is "a woollen material", does anyone else know any more about it?

Hah, I was just thinking about this thread the other day... allow me to take you on a short but lexical mystery tour. In 17th century France one of the finest houses was at a place named "Vaux", and it was the envy of European society. As well as being a magnificent house Vaux also had some of the finest gardens in Europe, so when a new set of public gardens was laid out in England in the 18th century it was named after the French house, Vaux Hall Gardens, but was quickly corrupted in to Vauxhall Gardens. In time the area itself, on the outskirts of London, became known as Vauxhall, and people soon forgot about the magnificent gardens or the 17thC French home which had inspired them. Then in the 19th century a railway station was built at Vauxhall, and was reckoned to be one of the finest in existence. When a Russian railways official visited England to see how the railways were run here he was taken to Vauxhall station, as one of the best examples. He returned to Russia with the idea that all stations should be like Vauxhall, and the word entered the Russian language to mean "railway station". So, from a 17thC French stately home to the Russian word for railway station - an etymologist's dream (or nightmare).

Now, some years ago in the UK there was a guy taking pictures of re-enactors and selling them without permission. Most people took it as a compliment and were excited to see themselves for sale (Bonaventure and my boat just made it onto a greetings card btw!), but some were less happy - I think the major problem was that they weren't making any money. So, the whole legailty problem arose and the end result was the decision that those people in the photographs had deliberately gone out of their way to be looked at by others, they had put a huge amount of money and effort into their costumes specifically to make themselves stand out from the crowd, as it were. The photographer had paid like everyone else to visit the events and had taken photographs over which he held the moral and legal copyright. What he did with them then was his business. Now, I'm certainly no expert on US law, but I imagine that a similar thing must apply to you too. Think of the photos the celebrities would rather were never published - males celebs with ladies of doubtful virtue, female celebs with their boobs out on private sun loungers, teenage celebs looking like sh** with a bad drink and drugs hangover. You think they'd let the photographers sell those pictures to the papers if there was any way of stopping it? Morally reprehensible though it may be to take photos of women's cleavage at events and sell them, I suspect that it would be very hard for the woman who had gone out of her way to put that cleavage on display to successfully prosecute the photographer. Sharing them for free is an entirely different matter of course.

well, without wishing to sound too dogmatic... Bonny and Read were hardly likely to be remembered simply for their success! Seriously though, the nature of their notoriety at the time makes it clear that the main point was that they were women. Calico Jack is probably only really well known because of his association with Bonny and Read... but that's a whole different thread. OFF TOPIC BIT!! I too suffer from a really bad back at times (combination of a youthful sporting injury and adult crash between a van and my bicycle). I don't know if you get them in the US, or if they have the same name, but I have found that a Lifa vest just takes the edge off the pain. It doesn't cure it, but it makes me mobile on days when I couldn't otherwise walk. Jill, I quite agree that there were probably a few women at sea during the GAoP whose disguise was good enough that they were never discovered. Had Mary Read quite while she was ahead, for example, we'd never have heard of her. For various reason though I do seriously believe that the number of them was considerably lower than in later periods. I also believe most strongly that there were probably more women at sea legitimately as women during the period than is generally thought. :)

Currently own: 20ft replica 17thC ship's boat In the works now: 16ft 17thC canoe A coracle Plan to own in the next few years: A longer and beamier replica 17thC ship's boat. Replica WWII Royal Marine folding canoe (Cockle MkII) Pipedreams (but not too unrealistic ones): Full sized 16 ton replica 17thC privateer

Okaaay, I think I'm beginning to understand... Actually, I think we have seen that they were the only three we've yet had presented here who were women aboard ships in an illegitimate way during the GAoP. I must confess that I don't know about their dress when scouting out villages for raids (anyone know of any instances when Bonny and Read did raid villages?) but we do know what they wore on ship. During battle or the chase they wore mens clothes, at other times they wore women's clothes. I suspect the origin for this particular legend is this passage from Johnson's General History: "...it happened that this young fellow had a quarrel with one of the pirates, and their ship then lying at anchor, near one of the islands, they appointed to go ashore and fight, according to the custom of the pirates. Mary Read, was to the last degree uneasy and anxious for the fate of her lover... she took a resolution of quarreling with this fellow herself, and having challenged him ashore, she appointed the time two hours sooner than that when he was to meet her lover, when she fought him at sword and pistol and killed him upon the spot." No mention of bared breasts, which smack very much of a later addition. Incidentally the old "legends must come from somewhere" argument is balls IMHO. Legends must come from somewhere, but that needn't be history need it? That's an interesting point, and one worth exploring. Getting back to my earlier division of women at sea during the GAoP into 4 groups we can look at the roles played by each group in terms of being "crew" members. For the first three categories ("Sea-women", "Lower-deck wives", "Officers' wives and passengers") we are fortunate to have a certain amount of information actually about them, and the consensus is that they didn't really play much of a part in the management of the ship. In times of emergency, such as in battle, they certainly helped out where they could, running ammunition about, helping with the wounded etc., but they don't really seem to have taken much of an active role in the day to day sailing of the ship. Unless evidence to the contrary appears it is reasonable to assume that these women dressed in their normal, female, attire. For the fourth category ("Women in disguise") we can only look at the three examples we have. Bonny and Read we know only wore men's clothes during battle, so it is a not-unreasonable assumption that whatever work they did during other times it was not stuff which was too impeded by their female clothes. Catherine Lincken disguised herself full time and took her place as a male member of the crew - we can assume therefore that she did everything her male colleagues did. Other women who may have disguised themselves with more success were probably in the same boat as Catherine Lincken (no pun intended). I've offered nothing but logic and evidence We know the names of thousands of pirates, many more than you probably think, we know the names of tens (even hundreds) of thousands of other seamen. Of course, some of those names might well have been women who were successful at disguising their sex, but as we have already been over more than once, they were almost certainly of significantly smaller numbers during the GAoP than later periods, and we only have two proper examples from which to draw evidence and conclusions (hey, we could exercise our imaginations but that would fall into the category of "making stuff up"). Now here's some more logic for you. The reason we know of Bonny and Read, the reason they are so famous, is because they were so unique for their time. If there were lots of women running round in breeches aboard ships we'd know about them, and there certainly wouldn't be the fuss made over Bonny and Read by their contemporaries. Earlier on you claimed (apparently as a joke) that we were going out of our way to disprove women on ships during the GAoP. I gotta be honest, it now feels like you're determined to prove large numbers of women running round being sailors during the period, and the evidence just doesn't support that. If you want to throw in some more relevant evidence then I'm sure everyone would be really pleased to see it (me most of all), but based on the evidence so far gathered there's plenty of evidence for women on board ships in female clothing in more passive roles (and active roles under special circumstances), and evidence for a small number of women taking more active roles and dressing as men. Now, we can speculate all we like if it'll make you feel better, but it ain't history.