Kilted Pirates?

[Tartan Jack]

One of my main interests is in Scottish stuff. I also make kilts on the side.

Repeatedly, I've seen pictures of GAoP pirates in kilts. For example, Pirates Magazine, Autumn 2006, pages 16 (piper on "A Sheet to the Wind") and 22 (man in chains in "Taking the Whydah"). I know Don Maitz does his homework too. I've seen, and heard, it MANY times before.

So, any one seen any documentable PROOF???

I've heard circumstancial and so forth before. But ANY PROOF?

It seems to be one of the oft occuring myths and legends.

(One of my interests-> legends vs. facts/truth and how the legends developed out of that fact.)

[Fox]

Short answer - nope.

The only thing even close that I can think of is a picture of John Gow from a 1732 book in which hes depicted in pseudo-Scottish dress. However, a: it's more than likely that the Scottish dress was an illustrative device used to show his highland origin rather than a literal depiction of what he actually wore, and b: he's wearing tartan breeches anyway, not a kilt.

Really, the "small kilt", or philabeg, which we now think of as a "kilt" had hardly developed by the GAoP anyway.

[Tartan Jack]

I like your site, by the way . . .

The Philabeg/small kilt was developed in the late 1600s and has a decent amount of documentation of its use before the 1715 Jacobite rebellion. (It is different than the modern tailored kilt, however)

For the interested, a belted plaid is what is shown in most of "Rob Roy" and what is so messed up in Braveheart (ie-> NOT accurate in time or construction).

A wool loom of tyhe time made a strip 25-27 inches wide. For a belted plaid (great kilt), it was simply 2 lengths (usually 3.5-6 yards, usually close to 4 each) of wool sewn together lengthwise to make a "double width" 54 (or so) inch wide piece.

A philabeg was a single stretch (4 yard) NOT attatched to another. It was probably attached with a belt through loops of some sort (the recontructions tend to fall apart without beltloops or some sort of sewing). I tend to call it a kilt for ease, though it is not a modern kilt. I don't like the term philabeg much (for reasons I'll avoid detailing right now).

I've discussed this (kilted pirates) AT LENGTH with many, many Scottish fanatics (like me) and had VERY different opinions. With the knowledge here, I figured someone may know of some from the pirate side (different base of experience and interest).

Likely candidates: Gow, MacNeils (infamous seafaring clan on the outer western isles), and others from the western isles.

Thanks Foxe!

[Tartan Jack]

I was going to let this thread die, but this was to good to pass up.

In Kenneth W. Maulder's "Piracy: Days of Long Ago" (Tampa Bay, Florida: Mulder Enterprises, 1998, second ed.) on page 77, this is listed under "Other Infamous Pirates:"

"Red Legs Greaves was a Scottish captain who wore a kilt exposing his bare legs even in cold weather."

Also:

"French pirate Captain Borgne-Fesse, which means Captain Half-Ass- history did not explain his deformity further."

More internet on Greaves is: (116 Google hits on his name)

http://www.ancientworlds.net/aw/Post/423739

and

http://blindkat.hegewisch.net/pirates/whosgreaves.html

He is also meantioned here (among Blackbeard and Roberts) on

http://romancereaderatheart.com/pirate/Trivia.html

Captain "Red Legs" Greaves (1670-1680 - Island of Margarita of Venezuela) Greaves got his nickname "Red Legs" from his heritage. The kilt wearing Scots were known for going bare legged in any weather and this lifestyle led to "red legs" in the Caribbean sun. As his reputation spread throughout the Caribbean "Red Leg" Greaves became known for his humanity and morality. He never tortured his prisoners, robbed the poor, or maltreated women. After Greaves became a legally free and pardoned man he once again retired to a plantation becoming well known for being a charitable and kindly man who gave generously to many public institutions. Greaves died of old age, universally respected and missed by all in his community.

Is this guy even real? One commentator thinks not:

http://www.thepirateking.com/forum/viewtop...0a08c50e379ccbd

At least one can see WHY the argument seems to go round and round without many "facts" ACTUALLY coming out on kilted pirates.

[Tartan Jack]

After several more years of looking . . .

NO proof ANY kilt-clad, belted plaid clad, or "philabeg"-clad pirate was EVER seen in the Caribbean during the 1600-1720s (the GAoP, even by the longest dating)!

That said, MUCH of the period common-man and seaman period correct patterns presently sold are based DIRECTLY upon Scottish bog finds. They were worn my Scotsman who got lost, killed, drunk, or otherwise ended up dead in a bog, sunk, and were preserved.

Kass based her "seaman jacket" pattern upon 3 particular Scottish bog finds, one with NO PANTS, a scrap of tartan, and the rest dressed.

In Scotland of the period, people tended to wear multiple garments at the same time (several pairs of pants and several jackets, one atop the other). Instead of a suitcase or bag, they just wore it. Still, some dies of exposure through multiple wool garment layers.

Also, after YEARS of regularly wearing pants, shorts, and kilts and belted plaids (AKA great kilts) . . .

There is NO WAY a belted plaid would have been worn in the Caribbean. One worn in South Carolina (cooler than the islands) in the summer is dangerous without LOTS of water, cooling fans on "high," and A/C. It is just too much wool, to warm for the heat.

A kilt is OK, temperature wise, but would be impractical for shipboard activities. An early version, basically the bottom half of a belted plaid (gathered, not pleated and pressed and held up by a belt and possibly a drawstring), is worn as it is practical and comfortable. On a ship, slops would make a LOT more sense.

So, from a documentable POV and a practical POV, it didn't happen, not in the 17-teend, not in the Caribbean.

In the Western Isles and North Sea, maybe, but we aren't playing Western Isles/North Sea pirates . . .

[LadyBrower]

Aye... I suppose though us lasses love a man in a kilt (of any sort) I would imagine his crew men would not enjoy the view if the kilted man should be aloft.

I appreciate your research; myself and the gents in my household we discussing this topic awhile back. Might is still be appropriate for special occasion wear? If so, which style would be most appropriate? Thanks!

[Capt. Sterling]

There is at least one kilt pin that was found in the Whydah and included in the exhibit, but that certainly doesn't mean pirates were wearing kilts on board the ship.

So far your safest bet would be to stick to wearing kilts strictly for balls/dances...

[Tartan Jack]

Aye... I suppose though us lasses love a man in a kilt (of any sort) I would imagine his crew men would not enjoy the view if the kilted man should be aloft.

I appreciate your research; myself and the gents in my household we discussing this topic awhile back. Might is still be appropriate for special occasion wear? If so, which style would be most appropriate? Thanks!

Which period?

Between 1600 and 1750 there was dramatic development in belted plaids/kilts.

The first certain reference was in 1594, or so.

The early style:

http://www.albanach.org/kilt.html

Style worn in 1700s:

Pretty much, pictures from 1700 have the belted plaid worn about the same as in 1745/6 (3rd Jacobite Rebellion)

After that it was adopted by the military and maintained as a standard till the modern tailored kilt developed.

We know what it looked like, but have really NO IDEA how it donned. No one wrote it down for us. Also, there are NO surviving examples. The earliest we have are 4-yard box pleated kilts from the 1800s. So, people have guessed.

Here is one way it was put on:

http://www.historichighlanders.com/belted.htm

A controversial way, but something with substance IMHO:

http://albanach.org/drawstring.htm The rest of that site is helpful too.

Interesting POV: http://home.comcast.net/~gmcdavid/HistNote...lted_plaid.html

The waist down style first showed up in the 1680s or so. As the belted plaid was made of 2 24-28 inch strips of material (the width of the mills) about 4 yards or so long, sewn together length wise to make a blanket (what "plaid" actually means) 48-56 inches wide top-bottom and 4 yards long. In other words, it was 2 pieces of single width material combined to make one double width one.

From experience, 3 times your waist usually works well for length of the material.

An early "philabeg"/small kilt/whatever name-ya-like, looks the SAME as a belted plaid, but with much less top part. They simply didn't sew the 2 strips together, leaving a single-width 4 yard stretch.

It has a good bit (4-6 inches) of material overlapping the top and hanging out. Sometimes, they put a large, wide belt over the top.

It was loosely gathered, not pleated and pressed. We also don't know if it was side-gathered, box-gathered, or both.

We do know there was plenty of documentable evidence of a "half-belted plaid" in the 1715 Jacobite Rebellion (the one Rob Roy MacGregor fought). So, it was worn then as a "warm weather" variant of the belted plaid.

So, for the 17-teens and 1720s, either one works fine, historically.

If looking for pictures, look for pictures and books on the Jacobite Rebellions and that period.

If doing reenacting, DO NOT where a modern, knife pleated, 8 yard one! The earliest surviving kilts and most from the 1800s are ALL 4-yard, box pleated examples, except for TWO examples of what is called "Kinguissie" pleating (one in the Kinguissie Folk Museum and the second in the Scottish Tartan Museum in Franklin, North Carolina). Most are set to stripe or NOTHING AT ALL!

When "The Kilt & How to Wear It" was written by The Hon. Stuart Ruaidri Erskine in the 1901-1903 (various editions), he praises the "new" idea of what we call "pleating to sett." He also references and de-cries the "new and exessive" use of 6-8 yards of material. Also, he discusses the pros and cons of the new-fangled side pleating, over and against traditional box-pleating.

So, the "classic" knife-pleated, 8-yard kilt is only dated to approx. the 1890s, as is pleating to sett.

The older style was 4-yards, box pleated, and actually often pleated to nothing at all. It was also straight waisted (no tapering) and no-lining. The first "real" tailored kilts were of that style.

Even THAT, a sewn-together kilt is AFTER the GAoP.

If interested, I could go on and reference several books.

Most of the ones sold here are good:

http://giftshop.scottishtartans.org/books.htm

A forum wherein I am a mod is for kilties: http://www.kiltsrock.com

Oh, and the only real difference between typical period "highlander" kit and "seaman" kit is slops/belted plaid. I'm sure a stickler could argue fine points, but most overlaps just fine.

Edited May 14, 2009 by Tartan Jack

[gunner Gordon]

Regimentally speaking, the Gordon Highlanders, as formed in 1794, were the first to officially use the knife pleat for duty, at the tall ships festaval and start of the race in 1997 I was invited aboard the training ship Sylla (sp) to get a better look at the fleet of everything imaginable that was there. This not being much help after climbing over numerous other boats , I climbed aloft to get a better view. An erratic but constant clicking noise attracted my attention to the deck of the boat "next door" where a group of ladies alldressed up were having tea, only now they were at the railing quietly taking photos of my kilt aloft. You have but to do the work of a sailor or a gunner and you will see why the lack of reference to wearing the kilt on board, they might have brought them with however.

[Tartan Jack]

Thanks.

That reminds me, I need to look up when the Gordon's adopted the knife pleats . . .

Oh, and the earliest ones aren't that many yards either.

Bob Martin's book, in the book seller list link above, gives great historical documentation and dates of the many 1800s kilts in museums. A decent dicussion is in that one of the earliest Gordon Highlander kilts, pleating style and yardage.

[gunner Gordon]

Thanks.

That reminds me, I need to look up when the Gordon's adopted the knife pleats . . .

Oh, and the earliest ones aren't that many yards either.

Bob Martin's book, in the book seller list link above, gives great historical documentation and dates of the many 1800s kilts in museums. A decent dicussion is in that one of the earliest Gordon Highlander kilts, pleating style and yardage.

I believe they adpted the knife pleat in 1794, and the yardege the was 4yrds I believe. of course the size of some of us now means a 6 yrd kilt is still covering the same amount of body. As an aside I once took a regimental kilt, much heavier than what you can normally buy, that was a 29 inch waist, opened all the pleats and repleated it to see the max waist alteration I could ge. It came out that with some creative sewining and redoing all the pleats you could get a 54 inch waist out of it,or one really decent pair of drop front trews.

[LadyBrower]

I'm rather surprised that the knife pleats were not in use till later, they are just too convenient. Hm. I suppose my friend's kilt would not be appropriate unless I took it apart (which I don't think I would be allowed to do!). =P It is 4 yards in length, but pleated into a fabric belt (which hides on the inside) for convenience. oh well!

All the information is fabulous, I'll have to send him this thread.

[michaelsbagley]

I'm rather surprised that the knife pleats were not in use till later, they are just too convenient. Hm. I suppose my friend's kilt would not be appropriate unless I took it apart (which I don't think I would be allowed to do!). =P It is 4 yards in length, but pleated into a fabric belt (which hides on the inside) for convenience. oh well!

All the information is fabulous, I'll have to send him this thread.

I know nothing about Scotts or Kilts, but I believe knife pleats were in use in the period (and before the period), perhaps just not on kilts.

[gunner Gordon]

my refernce was to military kilts, I believe the great kilt , for example, as hand pleated on the ground ,laid upon and belted would naturally produce the fold over form of a knife pleat, but not on purpose or style.

[Tartan Jack]

I'm rather surprised that the knife pleats were not in use till later, they are just too convenient. Hm. I suppose my friend's kilt would not be appropriate unless I took it apart (which I don't think I would be allowed to do!). =P It is 4 yards in length, but pleated into a fabric belt (which hides on the inside) for convenience. oh well!

All the information is fabulous, I'll have to send him this thread.

A knife pleat is a type of side pleat. A knife pleat is pressed to a "knife edge."

A loose side gather is perfectly fine, I do that often.

Also, there is a decent group that now thinks beltloops MAY have been part of a belted plaid and a philabeg, just not blatantly obvious. If you buy and look at Bob's book (All About Your Kilt), he argues for and shows pictures of a couple different ideas.

Peter MacDonald, I believe, is another who follows the beltloop idea. Peter is an acknowledged scholar on tartan and kilts, as is Bob. Bob, however, is much more controversial and vocal. I have met Bob a couple times and talked with him for several hours. I think he is right and on to something.

If you are interested in early kilts, I would HIGHLY recommend Bob Martin's book "All About Your Kilt." Some disagree, but he backs himself up well.

[Tartan Jack]

Thanks.

That reminds me, I need to look up when the Gordon's adopted the knife pleats . . .

Oh, and the earliest ones aren't that many yards either.

Bob Martin's book, in the book seller list link above, gives great historical documentation and dates of the many 1800s kilts in museums. A decent dicussion is in that one of the earliest Gordon Highlander kilts, pleating style and yardage.

I believe they adpted the knife pleat in 1794, and the yardege the was 4yrds I believe. of course the size of some of us now means a 6 yrd kilt is still covering the same amount of body. As an aside I once took a regimental kilt, much heavier than what you can normally buy, that was a 29 inch waist, opened all the pleats and repleated it to see the max waist alteration I could ge. It came out that with some creative sewining and redoing all the pleats you could get a 54 inch waist out of it,or one really decent pair of drop front trews.

Bob's book shows a Gordon one, from the regimental museum, with 21 small box pleats and 3 yards, 2 inches of material. It dates from 1796. It also has NO taper, is self-fringed on both ends, and looks like it has a button closure. It is made of "hard tartan" and the yellow is silk. (Page 54)

Also, there is the barrel pleats in the 1850s in many regiments. Those seem to have fallen out of favor, in preference to the knife pleat. A few of the old regimental knife pleats have the pleats going the "wrong way" around, with the wear implying they were built as barrel pleats which were then altered into knife pleats much later.

The VAST majority of surviving 19th century kilts, military or civilian have box pleats. I'll look carefully at Bob's illustrations and note the earliest knife pleat he shows, but I'll do that tonight. I need to be a dad and play with my kids right now!

On, and most look to have been straight sewn, no tapers, and many have what looks like suspender buttons (called "braces" in Britain). The above mentioned Gordon kilt has them!

Oh, and Bob's book changes my understanding of the 18th century development of the kilt.

It is WELL worth the price, for those interested in the subject!

[gunner Gordon]

Thanks.

That reminds me, I need to look up when the Gordon's adopted the knife pleats . . .

Oh, and the earliest ones aren't that many yards either.

Bob Martin's book, in the book seller list link above, gives great historical documentation and dates of the many 1800s kilts in museums. A decent dicussion is in that one of the earliest Gordon Highlander kilts, pleating style and yardage.

I believe they adpted the knife pleat in 1794, and the yardege the was 4yrds I believe. of course the size of some of us now means a 6 yrd kilt is still covering the same amount of body. As an aside I once took a regimental kilt, much heavier than what you can normally buy, that was a 29 inch waist, opened all the pleats and repleated it to see the max waist alteration I could ge. It came out that with some creative sewining and redoing all the pleats you could get a 54 inch waist out of it,or one really decent pair of drop front trews.

Bob's book shows a Gordon one, from the regimental museum, with 21 small box pleats and 3 yards, 2 inches of material. It dates from 1796. It also has NO taper, is self-fringed on both ends, and looks like it has a button closure. It is made of "hard tartan" and the yellow is silk. (Page 54)

Also, there is the barrel pleats in the 1850s in many regiments. Those seem to have fallen out of favor, in preference to the knife pleat. A few of the old regimental knife pleats have the pleats going the "wrong way" around, with the wear implying they were built as barrel pleats which were then altered into knife pleats much later.

The VAST majority of surviving 19th century kilts, military or civilian have box pleats. I'll look carefully at Bob's illustrations and note the earliest knife pleat he shows, but I'll do that tonight. I need to be a dad and play with my kids right now!

On, and most look to have been straight sewn, no tapers, and many have what looks like suspender buttons (called "braces" in Britain). The above mentioned Gordon kilt has them!

Oh, and Bob's book changes my understanding of the 18th century development of the kilt.

It is WELL worth the price, for those interested in the subject!

the regimental museum in Aberdeen is a wealth of treasure and info ,thanks to the staff and the vision of the last Regimental commander,Sir Peter Graham. but bear in mind tha the Gordon tarten is family as wellas military and most every ariation exists, the silk yellow is most likely private ,the museum turns down no donation and agressively preserves every thing even the unknown for later scholars to ponder, I've spent many a day there and enjoyed every one.

[JohnnyTarr]

Okay with out reading any other replys I have to say that if it was a real Scottsman he would be wearing a kilt.

I also have to say that I have kilt me a lot of pirates in my day.

[Kenneth]

Would this be period? Those stockings are wool.

(I know were in twill but I just can't help myself)

[Tartan Jack]

Um, no.

Wrong style hose/socks, flashes, and kilt.

Those are 1900-modern with an old-style jacket and shirt.

What would be appropriate for 17-teens would look markedly different.

Look at "Jacobite" images from 1715 and 1745 for the correct look.

That would be identical to what a pirate would have worn, IF there had been such a thing as a "kilted pirate" in the early 1700s.

(Oh, and HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I got the joke!)

Edited May 14, 2009 by Tartan Jack