Haversacks, Ditty Bags, Snapsacks and Wallets

[MadL]

Aye, I be bring'n up an old subject - who wanta make somth'n o' it?!!

Aye, I recently ran across a gent who fancy he'm self an old salt with vast experience and research in Sail. He was advertising, among other things, a book he has wrote on Ditty and Seamen Bags with several designs and descriptions right down t' th' stitching and hems.

Well, I need work on me sewing skills ('er lack of) so inquired if he still had th' book see'n as how there be no internet purchase button nor date t' tell me how old th' page may even be, he wrote right back same day!

As he indicated he spent much time int' he's research I ask'd if he had any insight t' sails o' th' GAoP period (indicating 1650~1730), well, he's first comeback was rather short - apparently he be, as he stated, o' Old School 'n feels all pirates should be hung on sight 'n therefore had non else t' say on th' matter!

So, I figured I better parlay with this gent...'n FAST, else find me self dance'n in th' jig!. So I wrote he'm back 'n began t' explain th' diversified group o' Pirate Reenactors 'n Pirate Festivals that are found across th' country and around th' world, I began t' explain, expressing that I can only speak of me self but felt it pretty much represented th' community as a whole, that we did not "celebrate cutthroats, killers, and thieves" but more expressed on the more positive aspects on pirates in history - I went int' a speel on Captain Drake, privateers, buccaneers, explorers, and in general 'free men' who did what they had to in order to survive in hard times with corrupt governments and rulers. I explained that among those I have come t' know th' Pirate Reenactment Community includes; school teachers, actors, reenactors, historians, general enthusiasts, and o' course sailors....and an occasional Jack Sparrow that we keep around; because every ship needs a cabin boy, and for some reason th' general public really relate t' th' cur.

With that he seem'd t' lighten up, he explained that has worked with reenactors but more of Ren Faire and Viking reenactors, said he had never ran int' any pirates. He said he was very put off by those he worked with for he felt they were not int' "authenticity" but more driven by Hollywood movies and would give him much argument when he tried to show them how things where made. I wrote back again explaining some of the forums like here at th' Pub and told he'm about Gentlemen of Fortune, I explained that while some pirate reenactors go t' great length t' research and be as authentic as possible right down t' th' very stitching o' every item while others strive t' do th' best they can with limited budget and time between real jobs....with that I seem'd t' have touched him for he wrote back th' following:

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Aye Mad L,

Good show, my compliments.

1. From what I could gather when I did the first active research on ditty bags in 1990. I could find NOTHING on ditty bags or indication of ditty bags before the early quarter of the 19th century. NOW, this does not say they didn't exist in some form or another, no proof so I didn't stand on that but I looked THOURGHLY. What I gather the "early" seaman

wrapped/gathered up a cloth with there personal items(which was extremely little) and then tied off. At present I can't put any effort into digging into any of this since I am now working on(other than the BIG)a book on making a traditional canvas ships bucket. (Buckets-4 different styles - pre 1940)

2. Now the "chest" was only had by the wealthy, evidenced by items from the reclamation of the Mary Rose 1549 and the VASA - 1628 in Sweden(on which I have done extensive work on the sail remnants for years now),, where they

brought up chests and boxes with some fantastic items NOTHING the common seaman or low level officer could possibly afford. Now from what information I could put together, on the VASA -1628 seaman(position could not be accurately determined) had personal items in small barrels with lid wedged on the top. From what I could determine one had had some canvas fastened to the lid but there is question on this. Small coopered barrels were FAR easier to come by than a "chest". I am short of time and can't go into this with anymore detail but it will give you folks an overview.

(he then went on t' tell me o' a Fashion Show he's wife "roped" him into and the early 1900 Swedish seaman's "Bassarong" he made and dress of same era he's wife made; all hand made and hand dyed)

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Anyway, I will let ye know how he's book be when it arrives.

"Making a Sailor's Traditional Ditty & Sea Bag"

[Mary Diamond]

Fascinating! and much obliged to you, MadL, for your excellent communications. Interesting that barrels are the poor man's alternative to a sea chest ~ now all we (the collective, of course) need do is shanghai a cooper, and we shall be set...

[Patrick Hand]

He sound kinda like a jerk.....

But a jerk we wanna know.....

Yeah... that may not have typed out right, it was not meant offensive, but it does take some time to get to know that we are all not Jack Sparrow wannabe's.....

Or something like that......

Yeah... it didn't type out right......

[MadL]

He sound kinda like a jerk..........

Yeah... it didn't type out right......

I have received similar remark from others when first they hear I portray a pirate, usually from those who have never heard of a Pirate Festival or reenactment but only know of Ren Faire, usually from those who believe only in th' literal word and definition "Pirate = murderous cutthroat thieve", usually from those who have no knowledge of good men who once when t' war for a king or queen and upon returning home with great joy of victory only to have their joy shattered as they find they are now regarded as 'Pirates' and have become automatic 'wanted men' all because they did not get word in time t' stop fighting. Many know of how Hollywood either 'glorifies' or 'villinize' pirates but in their own minds regards any who be tagged one a criminal....for me at least, it depends on what side of the coin ye be reading th' story, and yes, before ye jump, aye, I do know there also be 'really bad eggs' in history as well, as well as in present - think about it, just because someone puts on a cop's uniform (either legally or illegally) is he to be given full trust and respect? I know some dead people who would debate th' point (my own security training when servicing auto tellers taught me t' "Beware A Man In Uniform At ALL Costs!" -and if ye ever served military in Georgia then ye may also know where I come from as well))....just because one puts on religious cloth are they a man of God? I think modern day news and stories throughout history answer that one....I feel what be good for the goose be good for the gander; if we know all that be 'seen as good' is not always good then what be 'seen as bad' may have their own side t' th' coin t' tell if one is only willing t' listen.

Once this was pointed out t' Master Bartos he no longer seem'd a "jerk" and I extended invitation t' him for a visit t' th' Pub, it may be a while for him t' come round however as he do seem a busy man....I will be watching for his Canvas Buckets as well.

Edited January 19, 2009 by MadL

[MadL]

A new tidbit of information just came to me from Master Bartos, author of "Making a Salior's Ditty Bag, Sea Bag", he just wrote to tell me that he is seeking the rough draft of a book he began to write a while back called "Seaman's Luggage", he said he abandoned the idea after interviewing some, and I quote: "large group of OLD sailors(real sailors)" and they told him that 'Luggage' was insulting to true sailors stating "We have Sea Bags and Sea Chests".

He said once he finds his old rough draft of what he had written he will scan it in for me look through...sounds interesting.

Just remember; Sailors toss old luggage overboard for them ungrateful tourists, a true Sailor only carries what is necessary and carries it in a proper bag or chest

(bloody tourists!)

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

My sister has dubbed them "TOURONS" which is a combination of tourist and moron.

I love it!

I have also made an oversized market wallet that can be documented to the 1680's. It is big enough to use as a pack over a horses back, or as a matress if stuffed with straw. I keep a blanket rolled up in it but can easily shift it's use as need arises. I don't recall the exact measurements, but next time I get the camera out I'll include it in the set. These things are the most versitile and well documented method of carrying things I know of. Very handy and unlimited uses.

Bo

Edited January 22, 2009 by Capt. Bo of the WTF co.

[Monterey Jack]

My sister has dubbed them "TOURONS" which is a combination of tourist and moron.

I love it!

I have also made an oversized market wallet that can be documented to the 1680's. It is big enough to use as a pack over a horses back, or as a matress if stuffed with straw. I keep a blanket rolled up in it but can easily shift it's use as need arises. I don't recall the exact measurements, but next time I get the camera out I'll include it in the set. These things are the most versitile and well documented method of carrying things I know of. Very handy and unlimited uses.

Bo

My day job specializes in leather of all kinds for all purposes, so if anyone feels they want to go from canvas to leather for these items drop me a note at www.oregonleatherco.com and I'll see what i can do.

[MadL]

Aye, I made me own Market Wallet of standard sizing out of heavy canvas weight hemp. It be great for carrying all that stuff what do not fit int' yer pockets or tiny belt pouch!.

I saw someone who was making them with a tie strap on th' ends so after ye toss it over yer shoulder ye could tie th' tabs around yer (on th' other side o' ye) so it now stays put and will not keep slipping off yer shoulder. Mine also be small enough that I can drape it over th' hilt o' me sword or even a large belt dagger and let it hang from me hip. I love th' market wallet!

[sutlerjon]

I just finished this "snapsack" I may have gone too far back in time as it seems to be documented to the early 1600's, the photos didn't seem to indicate any buttonholes for a "drawstring" and seems to be twisted like a tootsie roll wrapper and tied off and then tied to Tumpline. I looked at a fair number of ECW pics and found several variations on the theme, but they seem to a bit more "modern" with drawstrings and integral straps.

It'll hold a ton of stuff and the 3" wide strap seem very comfortable, probably appropriate for the time of Searles' Raid.

Jim

[sutlerjon]

This is a new snapsack, a work still in progress. I have to out grommets in for tying shut. The design for this came from southern rangers site. It's about 12" across and 36" long.

I think I'll increase diameter and decrease length on the "production model".

It's long enough that it takes 2 pics to get it all in.

open end

closed end

strap is about 40" long but will likely be shortened.

Let me know what ya think,

Jim

[William Brand]

1. From what I could gather when I did the first active research on ditty bags in 1990. I could find NOTHING on ditty bags or indication of ditty bags before the early quarter of the 19th century. NOW, this does not say they didn't exist in some form or another, no proof so I didn't stand on that but I looked THOURGHLY. What I gather the "early" seaman

wrapped/gathered up a cloth with there personal items(which was extremely little) and then tied off.

You can see this form of 'tied up bag or cloth' represented in early art, generally being carried on the end of a good stick. I've seen the stick come up in several discussion, but people seldom add it to their kit. I inherited some very nice apple wood branches from my Dad's fruit trees this year and I plan to do a stick and bag combination for PIP.

[Hawkyns]

Snapsacks were still being used up into the F&I period, so they would still be correct for GAoP. Whether they would be carried be sailors is another question. The one you are making sounds a bit big. Mine is about 20 inches long and 10 inches in diameter. Enough for a spare shirt, spare hose, bowl, spoon and a tin mug/boiler and 2 days rations, as was supposed to be for ECW soldiers. When worn, it sits from right shoulder to left hip, tight across the back. I've seen them made from hemp canvas or thin leather. They're not supposed to be holdalls, but marching packs for soldiers.

Hawkyns

[MadL]

I am still waiting for him t' write th' book on barrels, th' author says he is in midst of another project surrounding a post GAoP ship right now and is also writting a book on canvas water buckets, but I have him on me list t' watch.

[Cascabel]

Snapsacks were still being used up into the F&I period, so they would still be correct for GAoP. Whether they would be carried be sailors is another question. The one you are making sounds a bit big. Mine is about 20 inches long and 10 inches in diameter. Enough for a spare shirt, spare hose, bowl, spoon and a tin mug/boiler and 2 days rations, as was supposed to be for ECW soldiers. When worn, it sits from right shoulder to left hip, tight across the back. I've seen them made from hemp canvas or thin leather. They're not supposed to be holdalls, but marching packs for soldiers.

Hawkyns

I have sort of wondered why a sailor would be carrying such a thing, unless he was currently un-employed. I suspect that whatever belongings he owned would normally be stowed aboard the ship he was with, and not be constantly carried around when he was ashore. Except, of course, on some kind of overland march of some kind, like the 'Sack of Panama'.

>>>> Cascabel

[MadL]

But Cascabel, where would he keep all th' photos o' all th' tarts 'n strumpets he meets at all them ports they travel?? Ye know they did naught yet have "wallet size" back then!

[Quartermaster James]

But Cascabel, where would he keep all th' photos o' all th' tarts 'n strumpets he meets at all them ports they travel?? Ye know they did naught yet have "wallet size" back then!

Don't forget the Hershey bars and nylons!

[Cascabel]

But Cascabel, where would he keep all th' photos o' all th' tarts 'n strumpets he meets at all them ports they travel?? Ye know they did naught yet have "wallet size" back then!

I keeps 'em all in my pornographic..... er.... ahh...., PHOTOgraphic memory !!!!

>>>>> Cascabel

[MadL]

Hershey bars and nylons....hmmm?

::puts strawberries 'n whip cream back in th' frig::

Quartermaster James; is that legal??

[sutlerjon]

This is a snapsack that I think will be the production model.

The only thing left is to cover the grommets with a buttonhole stitch.

It will hold a buncha sh ...tuff

Another View

[Sjöröveren]

Pat, given the similarities in shape I suspect that the classic "ditty bag" evolved from the snapsack. In fact, I'm not convinced there is enough difference between the two to even think of them as different items.

The overtly decorative knotwork that we see on later seamen's artifacts seems to have been a fashion which developed in the later 18th century and reached its heyday in the 19th. We do know that knots were used generally for decorative purposes during the GAoP, just apparently not in such complex forms or to such an extent as later. I'm sure that having some sort of well-dressed end to the drawstrings of a bag, and a turks' head woggle to pull them closed would be quite likely. (Since we don't have a period bag to compare this is obviously just speculation based on the use of knots elsewhere in the period).

This is just some idle speculation here, but I wonder if the rise of decorative knotwork was borne from longer sea voyages? The late 18th century and all of the 19th were the heydays of the great navies of the world, as well as years-long whaling expeditions. Could the long voyages have resulted in more idle time for the seamen, who spent that time doing knotwork, scrimshaw and the like? The coincidence is tempting.

[LadyBrower]

I'm working on bags of all sorts for my piratical men (well, mostly for them to carry my stuff)... Now, is this "snapsack" similar to the modern military bag (that amazing green thing?) but much smaller? I was going to use that for my model and scale it down...