Real Hemp Canvas!

[kass]

Enough of this! I can't take such punishment!

[Fox]

Oh dooby quiet Kass, you're bringing us down with your negative vibes...

[kass]

[The Doctor]

And I was so looking forward to making roached mainsails...

[michaelsbagley]

I just had a look at the fabric on the Reconstructing History site... It looks great... Does it only come in "natural" colour? And if so, how well does it take dyes? and any suggestions as to what types of dyes to use? (I'm guessing Rit dyes from the grocery store won't do)

Or am I thinking too much, and would most of the items made from this type of fabric just be made in a natural colour?

[Quartermaster James]

Oh! If you can dye it, Captain Weeder could be of the brownies!

Or you could make your kit all o' the kine green!

[kass]

<smacks Jigme with a belaying pin>

Quiet, mate! I'm workin' here...

Hi Michael. The answer to your question is yes and no. The heavy stuff -- the hemp canvas -- would probably have been used in its natural colour for slops and trousers and watch coats and the like. We believe that sailors used old sail cloth for these garments that they made themselves and there was no real reason to dye them.

However, the lighter weights of hemp on our site are hemp linen and would have been used whenever flax linen was used (the fibres are identical even under a microscope -- you need to do a chemical test to tell them apart). So if you want to make a waistcoat or breeches or something a sailor would have purchased, they'd likely be dyed.

I haven't uploaded all the colours the hemp comes in. We have a limited amount of colours and they're kinda dependent on what the mill sends us. We got absolutely TONS of black and quite a bit of navy. But the greens and lighter blues and reds are kinda sketchy. So if you have a particular colour in mind, let me know and I'll see if we have any at the warehouse.

As for dyeing, hemp takes dye fairly well, but you want to use a "fibre reactive dye" like those made by Jacquard Products and available from Dharma Trading.

And thanks for trying to get the thread back on track...

[michaelsbagley]

Thanks Kass,

I figured the canvas would come only in the one colour, which is fine... I was asking more about the lighter hemp fabrics, such as the twills and tabby (I particularily like the herringbone twill)...

I am looking more for blue and grey as, I've kind of adopted those colours as what I want for my pirate garb (see my profile photo of me in fantasy pirate garb)... I'm not dead set on any particluar shades or tones of blue or grey, but I do prefer light to medium greys, and brighter blues (not so much on the navy blue).

And I really wanted to throw in an additional off-topic "pot" shot during that inquirey, it just seems that all the good puns had been used already.

[kass]

All the good ones... and quite a few of the bad ones too!

Actually, I can get 16oz canvas in blue and black, believe it or not. Don't know why...

I can get the 8.7oz plain weave and the 12oz twill in a nice bright royal blue. No greys, though. I think grey doesn't take well.

The herringbone is only in natural though, I'm afraid, although it can be easily bleached and dyed with the dyes I recommended earlier.

[Rumba Rue]

Oh! If you can dye it, Captain Weeder could be of the brownies!

Or you could make your kit all o' the kine green!

ROTFLMAF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Captain Jim]

And I really wanted to throw in an additional off-topic "pot" shot during that inquirey, it just seems that all the good puns had been used already.

All except that one.

[Mad Matt]

I was talking with someone else and the issue of the weight came up. Particularly, 17 oz. seems very heavy. Without asking more questions, can someone please expound on using 17 oz. canvas or any other weights for a pair of slops?

[kass]

Hey there, Matt! Happy Christmas!

17oz is definitely heavy. But it's not stiff at all. It's very plaible and wearable. It is definitely canvas though, and the stuff we've sourced corresponds almost perfectly to period sailcloth. :)

In terms of what did they make slops out of, we have inventories and contract documents that specify canvas suits, canvas breeches, canvas frocks (not frock coats), canvas jackets, canvas trousers (the word "slops" isn't used to describe open-knee breeches in these documents). And there's an extant pair of trousers from the 1740s made by a sailor of sail cloth. We're fairly certain sailors did this fairly often and sailcloth was a staple of their wardrobe.

In contrast, when I make slops out of 10oz, I line them because they're just too floopy without a lining. But the 17oz don't need to be lined.

But if the 17oz is too much for you, we also carry 6.5oz, 8oz, 10oz, 12oz, 14oz, 15oz. If you want swatches, I can send 'em. Just ask.

I'll hopefully have a picture of the canvas slops next week, so stay tuned.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Plus... not all sail cloth is the same. For the Admiralty, there were different grades/wights of cloth. Now, that is usually referring to flax sail cloth, but the point is, that there were varying degrees of heaviness of sail cloth.

I wouldn't worry too much about the weight... And Kass seems to be able to get various weights (so get what your fingers would be comfortable sewing).

greg

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

To back up the sailors using sailcloth, it has been well documented that during the Rev War soldiers used tent cloth to make clothing when all else was gone. Seamen would have made use of sailcloth in the same manner. Private-to-Sergeant Joseph Plum Martin among others made note of this in his memoirs.

Bo

[Mad Matt]

Excellent, all! Thank you very much!

I had assumed that the heavier weight canvas would hold up to the rigors of ship work much better than the lighter canvas. In addition, I had assumed it would be a bit stiff.

Glad to see I've been "straightened out".

Thanks again.

MERRY CHRISTMAS

[Rumba Rue]

well the weave is never 'straight'.

[Mad Matt]

In regards to linings....were slops traditionally worn atop a pair of breeches almost like a pair of coveralls, to protect the clothing underneath? Or would they most likely be worn as the ONLY pair of trousers.

[kass]

Hi Matt,

This question is a bit controversial. We have a couple of picture where something might be peeking out from under a man's slops, but it's obscure whether the garment underneath is breeches or drawers (because, yes, sailors wore drawers in this period). The only clear picture of a seaman wearing slops over his breeches (and they're definitely breeches) is a painting from 1778 by John Singleton Copley called "Watson and the Shark". Here it is:

Okay, so we have one picture of definite breeches under slops. It's from 53 years after the end of the GAoP and all we can infer from it is that the artist assumed this is how sailors dressed. That being said, Copley has a reputation for painting garments with a great attention to detail. It still doesn't say anything about how slops were worn in the GAoP. Fifty-three years is a long time. Imagine how people dressed in 1953 as opposed to today. But I'm off the main subject here...

There is further evidence that layering was a rather common practice, especially by the poor (presumably for warmth). Many runaway ads in the Virginia Gazette and others describe indentured servants and slaves having had "breeches with trousers over them" when they ran away.

But we have plenty of evidence of slops and trousers being worn alone or over drawers as well.

So to answer your question, slops were not coveralls. They were a garment that could be worn alone, with drawers, and later in history may have been worn over knee breeches.

[Rumba Rue]

You bring up a good point Kass; layering.

I would think being as it's darn cold in the English Isles and western European countries in the winter, that layering would have to be done. It constantly amazes me when I see so-called shows of the time period with so minimal clothing on the people in in the snow....

However here in the USA, i.e. the west and the southern states, we know all about heat! Ugh, trying to do correct period, especially the Court Ladies and Gents of the Ren-faires in their heavy velvets and such (been there, done that) in anything over triple-digit heat, is extremely hard to do. I give big kudos to those who do it!

[Mad Matt]

Oh, controversy! Leave it to me to start it up.

Shall I stir the pot a bit more?

What about lacing in the back of the slops? AND if they DID do lacing on canvas slops, what would the lacing have been comprised of?

[kass]

Okay, it should be made quite clear that we have no extant examples of canvas slops. Not one. Matter of fact, we don't have extant examples of any slops. So anything we say as to their construction is conjecture.

That being said, lacing through a couple of eyelets at the back of the waistband is something we see on extant breeches from as far back as the early 1600s. So that's a plausible style. I wouldn't do the V in the back with the gusset and all that Rev War breeches crap though. It's still too early for that.

Lacing can be done with braided cord, leather thong, or how about that hemp twine that you use to bind off the end of the ropes on the ship.

In other words "whatever's handy".

[Mad Matt]

Thank you, m'dear.

[Quartermaster James]

Well, I hope this isn't too far off topic (if there's a better thread for this question, I trust our dear lord moderators to inform me!) but, what about period appropriate color schemes?

Seriously, when we buy a "suit of clothes" in the modern world, what do we mean? To my mind, we firstly think that it will all be cut from the same cloth. But what about to an 18th century gentleman (pyrate)? Would he expect his breeches, waistcoat (thank you Kass!), and frockcoat to be made of the same fabric? Would a fancy brocade be appropriate for one while not the other?

Seriously, it's been far too many years, and I have drunk far too much apple wine with the gods to be expected to remember such things!

[kass]

While I think this probably belongs in a thread of its own in Captain Twill, I'm pleased to answer you here, Jigme.

The short answer is that in the 18th century sometimes the coat, breeches and waistcoat were all cut from the same fabric. Sometimes the coat and breeches matched and the waistcoat was different. Sometimes the coat and waistcoat matched and the breeches were different. And sometimes all three pieces were from different fabric.

We see all these permutations in the historical record, so all these permutations are possible.