Pyrate Camp 2007

[William Brand]

We're beginning to repeat ourselves.

Ideally, three camps demonstrating the beginning, middle and end of the GOAP would be wonderful, but unless there is sufficient numbers to do all three, then I will concede any desire to do 1704 and stick with 1720 next year. Then we will have one camp at the beginning and one camp at the end.

Hurricane loves his time period so much, and knows it so well, that it would be a shame not to let him have his own period camp dedicated to Port Royal. So let us agree to let him do late Buccaneer, early GOAP.

The rest of us will avoid the middle period camp for this coming year and go straight to 1720. Once the numbers are up, we might consider a middle period camp in 2008 or 2009. We might eventually have 1690s, 1704 and 1720 in three of the four corners of the field, with the pub in the fourth, but not for now.

If we can agree on this point, we can move beyond any more reiteration.

[Captain Jim]

I knew that the "no-tent" rule would never fly, more in jest than anything. Still, it is the least expensive way to go and can serve to open up the possibilities for those who can't afford a ready-made tent. Or who aren't sew-crazy like Patrick and hand sew their own sail. Or who just want to carry the careening scenario to its extreme.

On with the show. Two camps it is, with liberal reference and respect to all of the history in between.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

What is the point of the event? Is it to be something to entertain the paying crowd (is it a paying crowd by the way)?

Is it a navel gazing opportunity for those that have authentic kit to stand around and look at each other and commend them on their authenticity?

Is it to generate foot traffic to a particular site?

Is it to be a fair/festival environment that celebrates Pirates in all their forms?

I have never been, so this isn't really a loaded question I am just curious as to the point of the exercise. And certainly no offense is meant here.

I think though, that before you start down a particular direction, you need to know where its going and where it has the potential to get off track.

I like the idea of an all-inclusive events that has room for everyone... The bucket boot guys and hot mini-skirted pirate chicks, as well as the the authentic minded Buccs and Pirates.

In all the "juried" events that I have hosted, I will admit that a lot of times the "baby" gets thrown out with the bathwater, and a lot of folks whose kits I thought were good, were too scarred to come to the event for fear of being rejected.

The trick is making sure everyone knows what is going on and what their jobs are.

It will be interesting to see if, in 3 years, there will be enough "authentic" pirates to even jury the event.

I like the idea of a pirate encampment, and if you want to throw a year or date up on a sign, go for it.

But, the guys with 1704 stuff are still going to wear their 1704 stuff. And folks with 1740 pattern India swords are still going to wear them... and folks with Rev War or Civil War shoes are still going to wear them.....

Just rambling now.... so I will stop.

Greg

[William Brand]

Greg, if you ever come in here and ramble like that again I will get you horribly drunk and take you out to sea and throw you out with the baby and the bath water.

Kidding.

Let us let Harry answer this, or we'll have ten more pages before we're all satisified that we have crossed the t's and dotted the i's six dozen times each.

[Captain Jim]

OK, I'll shut up for a while and let Harry take this one. (But the short answer is "yes")

[Harry]

No offense taken, Greg.

Our mission in the park service is to provide resource-based recreation, while preserving, interpreting and restoring natural and cultural resources.

I'm not sure what the point of the event has been over the years. I became affiliated with PiP in 2004 when our park hosted the Thieves Market. At the end of that festival, a couple of us came up with the idea of holding the entire event in the park--specifically in our fort. Sure, the fort didn't even exist in the 1700s. But, we believed we could create historically accurate scenarios about pirates to interpret to the public and have some fun doing it. A bit of literary license, if you will. We made our case to the organizers and sold our idea. In fact, the organizers liked the idea so much that they "passed the torch" to our group to produce the entire event. Not exactly what we were expecting, but we were up for the challenge.

We do Civil War events (the fort played an important role during the Rebellion), so we believed we could apply the same methods we employ for those events to this event. It's all about interpreting the history of the period.

Yes, we want to drive traffic into our fort. We want as many people as possible to understand our structure, it's significance, and why it's a National Historical Landmark. Preserving the structure, of course, requires money--lots of it. Monies earned from these events aid in that effort.

Among my goals for this event: 1)Host a gathering of folks who understand history and enjoy reenacting a particular time period--in this case, pirates covering the period 1675 to 1725; B)Accurately as possible interpret the historical period to our visitors. Showing that through the use of "living history" is a great learing tool; 3)Raise money to aid in the rehabilitation of Fort Taylor; D)Have fun!

There was some talk earlier regarding juried events. I'm not so sure I want to see this event go that way. I've been to Civil War events that border on that idea. A juried event may tend to become an exclusionary event. However, I strongly believe a set of standards is important. It's also necessary. By adopting a time frame as a standard, all who participate know immediately what's acceptable and what's not regarding characters, clothing, weapons and equipment (by the way, nylon tents have a place--in the modern camping area).

Hope what you've read helps you understand a little bit of what we are about.

Harry

Fort Taylor.org

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Thanks... That is exactly the type or response that I was looking to get.

With your reply in mind, I don't think that a juried event is the way to go.

I don't think that Authenticity should be ignored, but I do think that it provides only a part of the picture that you are trying to paint.

Since I have never been to your fort, and have no idea of the lay of the land, I feel like a am flying a little blind, but I will add my two cents for whatever its worth.

Maybe having a section of the fort dedicated to the authentic portrayal of GAoP pirates is the best way to go. I have a better understanding if why everyone is chomping at the bit to set a date and stick up signs.

If you have to pick a "date" though, I think later is better, just because it allows for more participation of living historians as very few have great kits for more than one decade of the GAoP. I still say, have the "authentic" section of the fort be a generalized area for all a historical interpretations under a banner of Golden Age of Piracy 1670-1730 and then in front of individual "groups" have other signs that say 1670 Buccaneers etc.

I doubt that there are many, even among re-enactors themselves that would know the difference between late and early breeches, and Early Justaucorps from a late one etc etc. And certainly the public would be clueless....

But you still have to engage the other elements of "the hobby" too. We just can't say "no unauthentic ren-faire types" as they use the same money we do, and also help to drive foot-traffic.

I think you guys may already be doing this kind of thing already.

Have a section for Authentic camping, and a Section for modern day camping.

The vendor thing is tricky. While its tempting to just want those with authentic stuff... the reality is that most vendors target F&I and Rev War, so most of their stuff isn't really GAOP either.

And the reality is that once this is a large event, you really want as many vendors their as possible. As long as the vendors fit under a large umbrella of "historical" I say more is better. There will be lots of kids... and kids don't buy $350 historically accurate GAoP Swords.... but they do buy junky little wooden "pirate" swords by the ton.

As far as entertainment during the event, as long as its pre-established what is going on and who is participating, there should be no big problems.

If its a Historical interpretation of a pirate trial, then the un-authentic folks should no that they are not participating, but at the same time there should be things that they can have ownership of and get to participate in.

Pirate Parades, Music and Crowd entertainment. Photo booth for "have your Picture taken with the events official "Jack Sparrow".

For that matter, maybe it would be a good idea to have a rogues gallery...

Hurricane is building his Morgan persona... but it would be great to have some other heavy hitters from the GAoP on hand too....

Jack Rackam, BlackBeard, Sam Bellamy... and of course the Duo Anne and Mary.

Greg

[hurricane]

Good stuff as always, GoF. We have a really good Anne and Mary and I would love to see others do famous pirates of the age - one of our own crewe does Stede Bonnet.

I think many of your insights are right on and your experience in these matters will help us all refine our collective vision.

Here's a photo of Mary Read (my wife - she looks pretty pissed off). She ended up hurting the poor little boys assigned to corral her town - made one puke at the jail.

-- Hurricane

[Hawkyns]

OK, long and attempting to cover a number of subjects here, so ye be warned. Be warned also that these are my opinions and like as not will upset a few folks.

Harry, I guess I see some contradictions in your post. You talk about being as authentic as possible, and setting standards, but not seeing jurying as the way to go. The problem with that is that it is easy for some people to read the standards and for them to say that they meet them. What happens when they show up at the gate and their interpretation of those standards is nowhere close to reality? Then what do we do? Accept them as making a good faith effort even though it spoils the work the people who really work to the standards have done? Toss them out, say you don't meet the standards, and cause more ill will? To me, it makes far more sense to submit photos in advance, then they can be critiqued and people told how to change their interpretation to meet waht we actually want to see. That way there are no hard feelings at the gate or when someone has a camp half set up and is told to strike it.

Unlike ACW or F&I or Rev War, we have no governing body to specify the rules and no unit commanders that are responsible for ensuring that all members meet that standard. The pirate community is particularly lax in this area (I know, my opinion and I'm likely to be shot for it) and far too many people take their 'documentation' from Hollywood. I know if I go to a muster sponsored by the Forces of Montcalm and Wolfe exactly what I am expected to do, what my weapons rules are, and what kit standard I must maintain. If I go out with my trekking buddies, I know that everyone is on an extended search to be as authentic as possible and I don't have to worry about anything non period. When I go to a pirate gathering, I will see everything from hard core authentic kit, to sold off movie gear, to things like the above posted pic. I guess I see what we are doing here, both on the board and specifically at PiP as having the opportunity to be the gold standard for pirate re-enacting. By being hard core, and yes, elitist, we are making ourselves THE group to belong to.

Going along with that, I would put in the standards right from the start. From my experience commanding a musketeer company of the ECWS, it is always easier to lighten the standards as research indicates, rather than make thing tougher as you go along. Once people get used to a lax standard, it is going to be a stone bitch to get them to buy new kit and upgrade existing kit.

Greg- you said

"But you still have to engage the other elements of "the hobby" too.

We just can't say "no unauthentic ren-faire types" as they use the

same money we do, and also help to drive foot-traffic."

Thats a very slippery slope. As far as the paying punters, you can't control what they wear, that is a fact. On the other hand, how much leeway do you wnat to permit people who may not be in the authentic camp but are still 'participants"? At waht point do we lose the historical and become just another pirate ren faire? It seems that since PotC, most ren faires have become mini pirate festivals anyway. I think we need to distinguish and distance ourselves from these as much as possible.

Finally, a question or two on the battle. Did I understand correctly that some people were brought out of the crowd to participate in the battle, people who were not part of the camps? That sounds like a recipe for disaster, if they are unfamiliar with black powder re-enactment safety rules. Which, by the way need to be decided on and published. Decisons like max charges, weapons inspections, rules for sword engagement, qualification standards, etc. Lastly, has any thought been given to encouraging Government forces from the period to become involved or even form units? The troops I saw in the picture looked to be attempting to be Rev War, but I'm not real sure.

So there's my take on it. We all have a vision of this. I gues I'm leaning towards something more like the Market Faires at New Boston or Fort Frederick. Or perhaps the Grand Encampment of the French and Indian War. The Grand Encampment of the Pirates sounds like a winner to me. I will now brace up and await incoming fire.

Hawkyns

[Patrick Hand]

Did I understand correctly that some people were brought out of the crowd to participate in the battle, people who were not part of the camps?

Silkie didn't discribe that right.... The people that were "recruted" were new Pyrate Reenactors. Also, they were not firing guns, but behind the firing line. This allowed them to participate in a safe manner.

The handling of black powder weapons is done in a very safe manner, and all people firing are checked and attend a safety meeting.

The safe handling of blackpowder weapons is well under control.

<not flaiming or anything, I just wanted to let you know..>

I don't like the idea of having particepents Jurried . For example, Jim and my garb and gear is very good, (but my slops are cotton canvas, as is my waistcoat... I'm making a new waistcoat out of wool lined with linen, and by next PiP all my clothing will be the correct fabric, and hand finished (and my sail/tarp, is cotton canvas but all hand sewn...)) But on the bus down to Key West, Silkie and I were talking. She didn't know how the coller gussets were sewn on a shirt, (I showed her) So she used a non-period pattern to make a shirt so she had something to wear.... In a jurried event, that wouldn't be "good" enough.... but next year, I'm sure her clothing will be better....

I think the best way to get "as close to authentic" Pyrate gear and clothing as possible is not by rules, but with guidelines. The SCA, only requires an "attempt" at garb... but look at the people still wearing just a "T" tunic and blue jeans tucked into thier boots.... Obvously we don't want that, but it takes time and money to get period correct Pyrate clothing. So a little "slippage" should be allowed. With a minimum stardard, I don't think anyone would just work towards that, and stop there... Machine sewn cotton would be OK, but that only gives you something to wear untill you have the time to make your clothing out of period correct fabric. The goal is to have period correct clothing and gear, (so you know it's correct) but be reasonable and accepting towards others that are still working to acheave that goal. "Stitch counting" is Not a bad thing.... But "Costume Nazi's" are... We should all want to be "Stitch Counters"... make our pyrate clothing as period as possible.... But be tollerent towards the new people, and help them to make thier stuff even better.....

We have a year to get stuff together, In future post, we can discuss some "how-tos"... such as how to make a waterproof ground cloth..... or what clothing is right. Some of the future post will be specificaly aimed towards the 1720 camp.... but will be usefull for the other camps at the Fort.

[Hawkyns]

Thanks for clarifying that, Patrick. Got to admit I nearly spewed tea on the keyboard when I first read it.

I think that people are getting this a bit backwards. We have to determine what the standards are first, and then jury to that standard. That ensures that everyone meets at least the minimum standard. Obviously there will be different opinions as to what that standard should be. I will always lobby for the high line, others will prefer a lesser bar. The consensus will be somewhere in the middle. But once we fix that bar, everyone in the camps MUST meet it.

To address some of your specific concerns. The difference between cotton canvas and hemp canvas bothers me not at all and would make no difference in my jurying. hand stitching is great and preferred on all outer portions, but I don't care if the unseen assembly is machine. Gussets in shoulders is common, but I sincerely doubt that every single shirt pre 1740 had them, or that they were all attached in exactly the same size and manner.

What I am concerend about, my hot buttons if you wish, are

1) no bucket top boots

2) no skull and bones everywhere

3) no fantasy weapons

4) no massive load of crap hanging from the belt

5) no horizontal striped socks

6) no skulls or skeletons around the camp

7) similar things that are obviously hollywood but 'generally accepted' among the pirate community.

Someone who has obviously done the research and knows what they are looking for but has not got the minor details right yet is not a problem. People who take their documentation from penny dreadfuls and hollywood are.

Hawkyns

[hurricane]

What I am concerend about, my hot buttons if you wish, are

1) no bucket top boots

2) no skull and bones everywhere

3) no fantasy weapons

4) no massive load of crap hanging from the belt

5) no horizontal striped socks

6) no skulls or skeletons around the camp

7) similar things that are obviously hollywood but 'generally accepted' among the pirate community.

There would be nobody at the festival Hawkyns. The goal is to bring more people in, not kick people out.

Key West is unlike any other place around--- it is by its nature a welcoming place and part of the beauty of this festival is that it welcomes pirates and wenches from all walks of life. I don't think Harry's intention is to ever become an exact reenactment event - if it was, it wouldn't be held in a Civil War era fort.

A certain kind of person is drawn to this event - and they aren't all going to adopt these strict standards. Again, the goal here is to create a living interpretation as best as the volunteers who attend can - given the fact that they spend a lot of money to get to the place and on food and drink while they're there. This isn't some small town in the backwoods - it is tourist central with the associated high costs.

I think it's asking a lot of the volunteers who make these encampments work and who do the dirty work of the festival to be that exact. I know my crewe would bale in a moment if this was the case. It just wouldn't be fun for us.

And I think you'd see participation drop right down into the bilge at a moment when Harry's trying to build this thing up.

Doesn't anybody listen to what Harry has been saying? It is, afterall on his watch.

-- Hurricane

[William Brand]

Steady people.

WE...ARE...ONLY...TALKING...ABOUT...THE...ENCAMPMENT.

First, jurying, even if we were to do it, was recommended three years out. Maybe even more.

Second, it was only recommended. It was never going to be as harsh as a death sentence. It would only be in place to keep the following things out of the encampment itself...Zombies, plushie dragons, mini-skirts, feather boas, etc. Cotton slops would never be turned away. We aren't going to put people under a microscope.

Jurying was just a word I grabbed out of thin air as a recommendation. Think of it more as a "Review of costume" for recommendations and improvements, or as Patrick put it, a "standard."

Example: Some body wants to go and put up a tent in the encampment. We ask them what they have. It turns out that they have slops, but no shirt or waistcoat. We make recommendations. We lend out extra gear. We see that they have what they need. We would judge kit based on a standard we all agree on.

Pragmatic standards. Fair and partial reviews.

And last, but certainly not least...

WE...ARE...ONLY...TALKING...ABOUT...THE...ENCAMPMENT.

[Diosa De Cancion]

Ah Hawkyns..... For the first time I find myself drawn to making a frock coat out of velvet penne.... just for you....

I have never had such an odd desire before...

nonetheless.... this is Key West.... this is a PUBLIC festival that is more flexible than what you seem to be after.... You can't pretend there have been no movies or Hollywood pirates becuase the kids and even adult patrons for that matter ask about them. I love having one or two hollywood pirates around to show the difference between reality and fiction when we're being asked questions. No problem!

Harry has already say NO JURYING!!!!! maybe you missed that.... but it does happen to be his gig...at the fort he runs..... I think he may have an eensy bitsy say as to how things will be going....

He has made the decision... live with it.. or go somewhere else....

Let's remember some of the goals of this fest according to Harry

"Host a gathering of folks who understand history and enjoy reenacting a particular time period--in this case, pirates covering the period 1675 to 1725"

This can be done without looking at every thread count...and to get the general idea across. if some want to be more preceise, WONDERFUL! and feel free to teach the others who may not be so perfect... but don't kick them to the curb for it.

"Raise money to aid in the rehabilitation of Fort Taylor"

The more pirates.... the more activities... the more the draw and the more the money rolls in. If we are restricting pirates to super tight standards... it's going to be impossible to get enough pirates there... it's already hard enough considering the costs related with getting to Key West...

"Have fun!"

Maybe going to person to person on gusset patrol does it for you, but not so much for the masses....

Diosa

PS God help the one of you that tries to toss me from my encampment anytime in the future..... Please note the Mary Read Pic of me posted by Hurricane above to see what you'll be up against....

[Patrick Hand]

What I am concerend about, my hot buttons if you wish, are

1) no bucket top boots

2) no skull and bones everywhere

3) no fantasy weapons

4) no massive load of crap hanging from the belt

5) no horizontal striped socks

6) no skulls or skeletons around the camp

7) similar things that are obviously hollywood but 'generally accepted' among the pirate community.

OK.... thats basicaly what we are working on fot the 1720 Pyrate Camp.....

I've got to say this again....

PiP is not just the Fort, it is at other places around Key West. and anything Pyrate goes...

Inside the Fort, the time line is 1675 to 1720...,

And the 1720 Pyrate Camp (inside the fort in the back corner) is an attempt to make it as Historacy accurate as we can .

2007 will only be the third year that we have been trying to set-up a historical camp, so there is a lot of growing to do....

I have never been to the Hampton Blackbeard Festaval, or the the Lockhouse Event... from the pictures I've seen, both look good. And that is what we are trying to do with setting up a 1720 Pyrate camp inside Fort Taylor.

[The Doctor]

... I love having one or two hollywood pirates around to show the difference between reality and fiction when we're being asked questions. No problem!

Diosa makes a great point; no matter the nature of the fest, it's always helpful to be able to point out a roaring case of "Sparrow-noid Schizophrenia" as an example of how pyrates didn't actually dress. :)

[kass]

Okay, I think we're veering from the intent of the festival here...

I want an authentic Golden Age of Piracy event just as much (possibly more) than anyone else. But the main thrust of this event is to promote the fort, correct?

Turning this event 100% authentic isn't going to do that. It's going to exclude people. And while I have no problem excluding people who don't obey the standards from reenactments, this is NOT a reenactment.

I liked the idea of the "Three Year Plan". Why not have an authentic camp in the fort next year and allow no modern tents inside. But don't jury the participants.

As for sutlers, if Harry is getting so many applications that he can pick and choose, he can choose the more authentic sutlers and encourage those less so to be in "period dress not Hollywood costumes".

I think this is a good first step. As the event gets more and more well-known, standards can be tightened for sutlers and other participants.

But if the main goal of the event is to make money for the fort, restricting participants isn't the way to do this.

[Patrick Hand]

PiP is not just the Fort, it is at other places around Key West. and anything Pyrate goes...

Inside the Fort, the time line is 1675 to 1720...,

And the 1720 Pyrate Camp (inside the fort in the back corner) is an attempt to make it as Historacy accurate as we can .

1) no bucket top boots

As an example of what I'm saying about "Not rules, but guidelines"...Jim and I talked about this.... Bucket boots in the 1720 Pyrate camp would be "Strongly Disscouraged", but if that is all someone had, they could go barefoot inside the fort (on the grass) but wear thiere bucket boots outside when going to town or durring the battle (the coral and rocks would be too painfull with out something on you feet...) We don't have a Rule that says you can't wear them.... just the guidelines on how to work with what you have. We want to remain flexable.....

4) no massive load of crap hanging from the belt

Once again.... We don't need a rule (for the 1720 Pyrate Camp) that says someone can't wear a stupid fox tail and all kinds of junk on thiere belt.... But I think they would feel kinda silly and get rid of all the extra stuff if it isn't correct in the 1720 Pyrate Camp....

[Harry]

I will reiterate this one more time---I am not a stitch counter or thread counter, or whatever one wants to call it. I know my history and I know just how I want participants to look in the festivals I produce here. If someone happens to be a bit off on their clothing or whatever, that's not a call for them to leave. Look, we're all adults here. We educate them on what works for the particular period. The only time I've ever asked someone to leave my event is when they have become unruly and/or are threatening participants or visitors. And, I will make that decision to toss or not to toss.

There will NOT be any renfair types accepted whatsoever. Last year's mix included some folks portraying rennies (no disrespect to those who portrary that period!). The mix didn't work. I saw people in fairy costumes with magic wands running around, I saw people with animal tails hanging off belts, I saw weaponry that was not around in the 1700s and so forth. By the same token, there is no need to send in a picture to see if your character/equipment is right for the period. That's absurd, in my view. You're supposed to know if it's the correct equipment and such. I only require photos from merchants because I've been burned a few times by some in that group.

Again, the period that is to be represented is 1675-1725. Whatever mixes within those years is good to go. I am not about segregate people during the event. All should be able to mix with everyone. We are interpreting history here folks. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to get entangled in the small stuff. It is for those reasons that I do not attend Civil War events that cater to the thread counters and such. I want everyone to be as accurate as possible. Once again, as accurate as possible. William, Patrick Hand, Capt. Jim and Capt Rusty have an excellent idea of where I'm coming from with this. Hurricane and his crewe also have an excellent idea of where I'm coming from.

As William mentioned, this is only the encampment we're talking about. In my mind, the issue is settled. The parameters are there. Let's build the characters and equipment AS HISTORICALLY ACCURATE AS POSSIBLE (emphasis added to reiterate that I am not a thread-counter).

Harry

Fort Taylor.org

[Silkie McDonough]

Thank you Harry.

I was most defiantly one of the "not correct but trying to get the correct look" crowd this year. In fact I was the only of that crowd who set up a "tent". I was grateful to those who assisted me with suggestions and instructions for achieving authenticity. I was just as grateful that the same people were understanding that I am a beginner and that my goals may not be the same as theirs.

I have a background of theatrical costuming. What reads well on stage at 30 or 40 feet from the audience is a far cry from what reads well in conversation but the appearance can still be maintained if the fabric is not accurate and the pattern is from Simplicity (Sorry Kass ). Yes I have been told that linen will breath much better than the cotton I wore this year. Additionally I guarantee that I will test that myself next year because after the heat wave I suffered through in my cotton puffy sleeved shirt, I am building something new! However, I will not be discarding the cotton. I can use it in a pinch and in cooler climates.

I spent more time with the "authentics" but had just as much fun with the actors.

This is, to me, part of the beauty of KeyWest and PiP.

[Hawkyns]

Pardon me. I was under the impression that things were still up for discussion and changes could still be made. Obviously I was wrong. I was also under the impression that the attempt was to be made to make this more than just the ordinary pirate festival. Wrong there, too, I guess.

Nevertheless, I will take my absurd stitch counting ideas and return to the museums where they are normal. I see where the wind lies, and see no reason to remain on this tack.

Good day t' ye all.

Hawkyns

[kass]

Hey Silkie, that works for me!

I'll have linen when you want to buy it. And I'll show you a trick with those neck gussets if you like.

I admit that I'd love to see everyone in correct kit. But I haven't forgotten that I went to my first event in a cotton "blouse" (it wasn't remotely a shift) and bodice. Everyone has to start somewhere. And I hope my new website will help people who want to do the authentic thing to do it easily and with lots of help and encouragment. :)

[Silkie McDonough]

Thank you again Kass!

[kass]

Thank you, Silkie. I cannot tell you how excited I am about PIP 2007 now!

[Captain Jim]

Hawkyns, yer a gruff ol' bear, but we still respect your input. While we may be taking a different tack than you would, I think we all have the same goal, authenticity. Check in from time to time to see how this shakes out. We may see you down there yet.