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Leather Waistcoat


Matusalem

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I don't recall ever having seen any record of a leather waistcoat. Doesn't mean they didn't exist, but I don't know of any.

Foxe

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Hmmm....

The only thing I can think of, and it would be pre GAoP would be a Buff Coat?

I have seen them sleeveless, so they would look like a waistcoat after a fashion...

Just a rambling thought...

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Oh Buff Coats! They're still in use in the GAoP as far as I recall. I think we still see a couple around the American War for Independence too. Any armour guys on the forums to corroborate this for me?

But they're not light leather, Matusalem. They're armour, you see...

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If anyone were in the tropics they wouldn't be caught dead (well maybe they would be dead) in any leather frock coats, no matter what the fashion. Take 80+ degrees and 100% humidity and leather isn't a good choice...

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I don't know if we can place buff-coats in the GAoP - though they were certainly used by cavalrymen until quite late in the 17th century - the Earl of Oxford's regiment may have been wearing them until 1696.

At sea (or nearly) the latest reference I can immediately lay my hands on is the description of the costume of Captain Cable, a character in the play "News From Plymouth", by Sir William Davenant, which included a buff jerkin in 1673.

Foxe

"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707


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We-ell...

Several items of leather clothing have been recovered from the Mary Rose (1545), but then a lot of landsmen were aboard her the day she sank, so it's quite possible that they didn't belong to the seamen.

We also have records of leather clothes, lined with lamb skins, being provided for sailors on an early 17th century expedition to the frozen north - but there again it's unwise to apply that information to anything but the very unusual circumstances it referrs to.

Nathaniel Butler wrote that he liked to wear a buff-coat in battle, but that was for protection, so again it's not really applicable.

Y'know what? Forget the leather waistcoat - 'tis a silly idea B)

Foxe

"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707


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But they're not light leather, Matusalem. They're armour, you see...

Not all of them. Dragoons and some mounted troops, certainly. But there were infantry officers who had them made of lighter leather for both fashion and general use.

Having worn one of the lighter weight buff coats, they are great in the wind. On the other hand, one of my serjeants made a buff coat from some actual buff leather she acquired, oiled it properly with fish oil and coloured it with ochre. She wore it in a battle where it started to rain. By the end of it, she could barely stand up because of the weight. 1/4 inch thick leather that is oiled but not sealed soaks up water like a sponge. She was also an interesting shade of yellow.......

:rolleyes:

Hawkyns

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Not all of them. Dragoons and some mounted troops, certainly. But there were infantry officers who had them made of lighter leather for both fashion and general use.

Do we actually have any evidence of that? I've not done any detailed research into buff coats, but I always understood the light-buff-coats-for-officer-fashion idea to be a bit of a reenactorism.

And good to see you Hawkyns, not seen you round these parts for a while!

Foxe

"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707


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Still in use up into the Restoration period, so arguably into the early part of GAoP.

Hawkyns

:rolleyes:

Cannon add dignity to what otherwise would be merely an ugly brawl

I do what I do for my own reasons.

I do not require anyone to follow me.

I do not require society's approval for my actions or beliefs.

if I am to be judged, let me be judged in the pure light of history, not the harsh glare of modern trends.

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Yup. That's a buffcoat, Jack. It's actually made of elk hide, that one. It's armour. :)

It's in the style of a Justcorps though. See the dog ear cuffs? This one is from Germany, I believe. I think it was destroyed in the war. The photo is from Kohler's "History of Costume".

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Well, it's relevant in that it's odd. It's kinda like an old fashioned thing with new bells and whistles on it. It's neat. It keeps us from saying "they never..." :ph34r:

And yeah, those are dog-ear cuffs, but they're usually worn turned back. ;)

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It's kinda like an old fashioned thing with new bells and whistles on it.

Being ignorant of such things...which part is old fashioned, and which is "new," at least for it's time?

"When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear, and life stands explained." --Mark Twain

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The very concept of a buff-coat is the old part, they were definitely on the way out by 1700. The new part is the up-to-date style.

Actually, the buff-coat in question is an interesting amalgamation. Apart from the cuffs it appears to be a pretty typical buff-coat in terms of cut and construction - and buff-coats were armour which only followed civilian fashion by accident, if at all. In 1700 the standard buff-coat shape happened to be superficially similar to the prevailing civilian fashion in coats, and so this example has got the added cuffs to complete the illusion. Take the cuffs off and it could date from 70 years earlier.

I want one. :)

Foxe

"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707


ETFox.co.uk

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Yeah. What he said! :D

Seriously, except for the cuffs, it is so like the buff coats from the 1630s and 1640s, it's almost unbelievable. If I didn't know this one existed, I would certainly think they weren't around by this point.

Foxe, darling, I'm sorry but I don't work in elk... :D

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I don't see any closures in this photo either, Jesse, but other buff coats were closed by means of lacing. The lacing usually only came as far as the bottom of the sternum, but that's all your really need to keep the thing closed.

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How would you keep it closed? I don't see buttons or laces or anything...a belt?

Either lacing or, in some cases, large hooks and eyes.

Chances are you would also have a sword girdle and something this fancy would have an officer's sash.

Hawkyns

:lol:

Cannon add dignity to what otherwise would be merely an ugly brawl

I do what I do for my own reasons.

I do not require anyone to follow me.

I do not require society's approval for my actions or beliefs.

if I am to be judged, let me be judged in the pure light of history, not the harsh glare of modern trends.

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I know I've seen this pic in one of my books. Something is tickling my brain, and it's shouting cuirassier, as in, this was designed to be worn under a breast/back plate. But I could be waaaaay wrong... (never trust those little voices in your head!)

:lol:

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