Period Correct Cups, Plates, Tankards and Eating Stuff

[IvanHenry]

I have some drinking vessel research posted in a gallery here:

http://www.ivanhenry.com/extras/16th_17th_18th_century_drinking_vessel.html

[Mission]

There were also tankards with glass bottoms so the wary drinker could keep an eye on the tavern suroundings, even when drinking, in case a foe or anything unsavery approached. My mom has a bunch of those in her basement from when we were on a local Medieval Faire's cast

Interesting. I had always heard that the reason there were glass bottoms was so the drinker could check and make sure there were no coins in the bottom. If the King's recruiting sergeant was buying drinks, a ploy to get recruits to "take the king's shilling", thus essentially signing on to military service, was to put the coin in the tankard. When they got to the bottom they'd pick it up out of the tankard ( lookit this! there's money in me grog!), thus "taking the King's shilling". I'd also heard they were a 19C invention. Worth doing some research again, I guess, to make sure what I remember isn't another reenactorism or museum myth perpetuated from docent to docent.

I have heard repeatedly that these are not correct to the Golden Age of Pyracy. In fact, if you go back to the first page, you'll find Chole makes a comment on this.

[Mission]

Here is some brief info on cooking items from the book The Voyages and Travels of Captain Nathaniel Uring (1928 reprint, first published in 1726). He is describing items in a house in Virginia where he stayed for a few months in 1697 or 8. Note the lack of forks.]

]

"The Closet was made use of for their Kitchen Furniture, which consisted of an Iron Pot, a Frying-Pan, Two or Three earthen Dishes, Three or Four Pewter Plates, and as many Spoons. I lived with these poor People very agreeably..." (Uring, p. 12)

[landlubbersanonymous]

The Pewter Society in the UK is currently running with a sort of pie-shaped imagery that covers 15th-19th century British plate styles. I can't vouch for its accuracy, but I wouldn't think they'd intentionally post misinformation. (Take it with a grain of salt.)

http://www.pewtersoc...es-and-saucers/

Edited September 30, 2011 by landlubbersanonymous

[jendobyns]

What a wonderful reference. Thank you.

[landlubbersanonymous]

What a wonderful reference. Thank you.

You're welcome.

(I'm saving a copy of the graphic for future reference too.)

[landlubbersanonymous]

And, for those interested in pewter tankards, flagons, and such; there is this: http://www.pewtertan...p?p=1_7_British

well, onward with my search.

I really like that site. On the links page, there's a connection to a European pewter one...

http://www.zinnmeist.../historisch.htm

Even if one can't follow all the (German) text, it's worth a visit just to view the photos, artwork and regional maps with illustrations of assorted European and British shapes and styles of drink ware that were produced through the ages. The latter came from the book Schönes Zinn by Ludwig Mory. After eyeballing these things for the better part of a year, I ventured to eBay's German site a week ago and purchased a copy. I'll be happy to share any relevant info from same once I get my mitts on it.

Edited October 5, 2011 by landlubbersanonymous

[jendobyns]

oooh, very nice!

[landlubbersanonymous]

The book (Schönes Zinn) arrived after a six week journey over the high seas.

I'm going to attempt to distill the mid 17th-18th century info. from that and other books/sources.

Edited October 27, 2011 by landlubbersanonymous

[Grymm]

Slipware and stoneware is what I tend to use for late 17th-early 18thC

Mostly from these guys

http://www.trinitycourtpotteries.co.uk/trintiycourt_home.htm

or

http://www.hudsonclaypotter.co.uk/

Both have been known to do commissions, and the websites show a teeny amount of what they can and do produce. Best speak to them.

[jendobyns]

Slipware and stoneware is what I tend to use for late 17th-early 18thC

Mostly from these guys

http://www.trinityco...ycourt_home.htm

or

http://www.hudsonclaypotter.co.uk/

Both have been known to do commissions, and the websites show a teeny amount of what they can and do produce. Best speak to them.

Those are gorgeous pieces! Lucky you!

[landlubbersanonymous]

Noteworthy biographical info re: Simon Benning, (the English pewterer who'd set up shop in Port Royal, Jamaica) from the PR Project.

http://nautarch.tamu...al/research.htm

(Msg me for the text if link becomes disabled/obsolete.)

Edited January 15, 2012 by landlubbersanonymous

[Johnathan Atwood]

I've seen a lot on here for pewter, tin, and copper mugs. What about leather Black Jacks lined with brewer's pitch? I have one and have heard its accurate, but to be honest I have seen very little documentation beyond the Eyewitness Books: Pirate, from DK Publishing.

[landlubbersanonymous]

I've seen a lot on here for pewter, tin, and copper mugs. What about leather Black Jacks lined with brewer's pitch? I have one and have heard its accurate, but to be honest I have seen very little documentation beyond the Eyewitness Books: Pirate, from DK Publishing.

Not references to pirates AND Black Jacks per se but general (period) info...

A couple of the mugs appear in Early American Antique Country Furnishings by George Neumann

(Recommended general reference on period related items of all sorts.)

A link to Black Jacks and Leather Bottells: Being some account of leather drinking vessels in England by Oliver Baker (1921) It may take a couple minutes to load....

http://www.scribd.co...eather-Bottells

Some museum links here...

http://www.museumofl...bject&id=440161

http://www.museumofl...rg/black-jacks/

http://collections.v...523/black-jack/

http://collections.v...862/black-jack/

Pyracy forum threads with info related to these creatures...

https://pyracy.com/in...showtopic=16722

https://pyracy.com/in...showtopic=18181

Some interesting DIY info from another site...

http://www.modaruniv...y.org/Jacks.htm

Edited January 28, 2012 by landlubbersanonymous

[Johnathan Atwood]

Much Obliged! I think I'll try making a few! I'll post pics if they turn out well.

[landlubbersanonymous]

Here's a nifty illustration of a period marketplace in Alsace featuring all manner of goods. This image is from Schönes Zinn and can also be found reproduced in PEWTER at the Victoria and Albert Museum. The artist is reportedly unknown. (Note predatory parrot on center canopy waiting to wreak havoc on its next unsuspecting victim.)

Edited March 22, 2012 by landlubbersanonymous

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Port Royal again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=850J9tYPd28

see 7.50.... Documentaries are often bad but this is good....

Edited March 26, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Grymm]

For some f*%£ing gorgeous period correct glassware these chaps are the bee's knees, wasp's nipples, grasshoppers privates, in fact name an erogenous zone and and insect and they are it.......well I think so =o)

http://www.georgianglassmakers.co.uk/gallerybalusters.htm

Luckily they were having a sale at TORM so I got me some of their bootiful handblown/made drinking glasses without having to rent The Mem Sahib to passing sailors.

For period pewter I go to AE Williams in Birmingham direct, I was luck enough to have a mooch round their mould store and they have quite a few that date back to the 17th & 18thC so what comes out is pretty much spot on apart from the alloy itself.

Reiver Trading also sell Williams stuff

http://www.reivertrading.co.uk/index.html

[jendobyns]

For some f*%£ing gorgeous period correct glassware these chaps are the bee's knees, wasp's nipples, grasshoppers privates, in fact name an erogenous zone and and insect and they are it.......well I think so =o)

http://www.georgiang...rybalusters.htm

Luckily they were having a sale at TORM so I got me some of their bootiful handblown/made drinking glasses without having to rent The Mem Sahib to passing sailors.

For period pewter I go to AE Williams in Birmingham direct, I was luck enough to have a mooch round their mould store and they have quite a few that date back to the 17th & 18thC so what comes out is pretty much spot on apart from the alloy itself.

Reiver Trading also sell Williams stuff

http://www.reivertra...o.uk/index.html

Um, ah, yeah. Glassware worth lusting for! There is no emoticon for drooling, darn it!

[Mission]

Reading along in David Marley's Daily Life of Pirates and I came across this, which I found interesting. Back on page two of this discussion the three- versus two-tined fork was mentioned and so when I read this, I found it interesting. (I don't know what Marley's source is for the comment; he's not always that good at citing his sources...)

"The customary eating practice at the time was to hold one's food down on a plate with a double-tined fork, cutting and passing portions of it into the mouth on the tip of a sharp knife. Spoons were also used for soups or stews, each individual's set of utensils designed to fold up or nestle into a portable kit carried on their person. A refinement that began to become more commonplace toward the end of the 17^th century meant using the fork to life portions of food into one's mouth, so that three tines became the norm for forks, with round-tipped knives for cutting. Plates carried aboard most ships were usually squares made out of wood, and pewter mugs were used for drinking – although pirate crews that had been successful in looting rich merchants often dined incongruously off China or even silverware." (Marley, p. 43)

[jendobyns]

So the next question would be, what is Marley's source for this information? And does the material culture of the time (eating utensils) back this up? Look at the art work of the period, museum collections, etc.

[jendobyns]

I don't remember if links work here, but the Met Museum has a fork and spoon set from around 1680, the fork has _four_ tines. And that is just the top of the page.

http://www.metmuseum.org/Collections/search-the-collections/200240

[Mission]

As I said, I don't know his source. I have already found one apparent factual error in his book, so maybe he's wrong. (He also has some rather dubious things to say about earrings IMO, but I didn't want to dredge that hoary topic up.) To be honest, I can't imagine there being a standard way of eating, other than by vague associative custom and learning from elders and peers, but I just found his comment interesting.

You seem to focus on topics like this, what are your thoughts?

[jendobyns]

I think he is painting with a very broad, general brush. Much of it sounds dated, too. An enterprising person might find a period etiquette book or two online, and this would help clarify a few things. (Did you know George Washington's Rules of Civility had it's roots in the Renaissance?) But then again those books were designed to assist people who wished to improve themselves, so would be aimed at at least those with pretensions to high status. We probably won't ever know what the average person actually did, unless we can find some commentary by someone who was actually there (that happened often enough with other things, so who knows?) The tools are another matter. The newest, coolest stuff tends to belong to those who could afford it (back then that meant royalty for the most part) then trickle down. So rather than big museums where the prettiest stuff frequently ends up I would check with archaeological collections which house items from the more common sort and see how they compare. There were, I think, examples of at least 3-tine forks from Jamaica in a common metal like pewter. I think someone posted that elsewhere.

It's late, I need to go to sleep, and my books are, for the most part, 14 hours away. So take the above with perhaps a grain of salt. I'm working on memory and a couple of decades of being a material culture girl here. Things can get fuzzy without the library.

[William Brand]

The trifid finial fork found off Jamaica is a three pronged fork, but has the same overall look as the fancier example that jendobyns linked above. There were three pronged forks recovered from La Belle, which sank near Jamaica in 1686. Replicas of Jamaican shipwreck forks were widely reproduced in the 1970s.

There are also shipwreck examples of four tined forks from both Jamaica and the Whydah that are so similar in style to ones used today, that with a little effort, one could find modern forks that are period in style.