dasNdanger Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 BOOTS!!!! Speaking of which.... Did anyone notice in that thar shanty Blow the Man Down that I posted earlier...there is a mention of BOOTS??! Just stirring da pot... das http://www.ajmeerwald.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshuaRed Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Blow The Man Down is a mid 19th century shantey. I could be wrong but I think it originated on the famous Black Ball Line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasNdanger Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Blow The Man Down is a mid 19th century shantey. I could be wrong but I think it originated on the famous Black Ball Line. *stomps foot* Oh, YER no fun!!!! Givin' away the secrets so soon...I was hoping Petee would bite first... *Clamps a pair of fuzzy manacles on JR and drags him to the brig* das http://www.ajmeerwald.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshuaRed Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 *smacks self in head* Sorry! Course we could discuss the "red top boots" of the Black Ball Line.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman of Fortune Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Boots.... Our next speculation (not mine, mind you) is that there are these ever elusive soft high sailor boots... I am not too sure about that. It infers that they are some sort of sailor specific item. Wouldn't those show up in wills or probate info? Wouldn't there be at least one documentable picture with these being worn? Until proven othewise, I will cling to my belief that, if they were ever worn at all, they were an extreme anomaly and at best constitute a fraction of 1% of sailors. GoF Come aboard my pirate re-enacting site http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/ Where you will find lots of information on building your authentic Pirate Impression! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Wouldn't there be at least one documentable picture with these being worn? There is, it's one of the DuPlessis paintings of the French seamen. However, it's ONE picture out of hundreds, the guys might be officers for all we know, and the are French... Until proven othewise, I will cling to my belief that, if they were ever worn at all, they were an extreme anomaly and at best constitute a fraction of 1% of sailors. Yup, that's about the size of it. :) Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasNdanger Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Don't give yerself a headache, JR.... Okie dokie - let's talk about these Frogs...I mean, Frenchies... I posted this picture last year in a similar discussion. I've tried to discover a date for this statue, but can't. However, I suspect it's 19th century. But it does show a Frenchie in boots...a softer-looking, shorter boot, but with that doubled-down top. Anyone know the history of this statue? (It's supposed to be Rene DuguaTrouin, but it's not the St. Malo statue...not sure where it's from...) So, perhaps boots were a French thing... das http://www.ajmeerwald.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman of Fortune Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 René Duguay-Trouin. A French Pirate (1673-1736). He was GAoP, but sadly, I don't think that the sculpture is... the boots look to be left/right and not straight lasted. I searched the net as well but could come up with nothing on that statue. Not sure if this is a contemporary picture or not.. Your statue picture is from the Dorlington Kindersley Eyewitness Guides (#59) ... why yes Foxe. That is where I get all of my information.... Come aboard my pirate re-enacting site http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/ Where you will find lots of information on building your authentic Pirate Impression! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasNdanger Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Aye, it's from that doggone DK guide - but they didn't create the statue, someone else did...and I'm wondering about the date on it. I'll see your shod Duguay, and raise you a booted one: dasBOOT! http://www.ajmeerwald.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman of Fortune Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 I am begining to wonder if it really is Rene'. I would have thought it would be a famous enough statue to find out if it really was him. I am thinking its somebody else. Still post GAoP though.... GoF Come aboard my pirate re-enacting site http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/ Where you will find lots of information on building your authentic Pirate Impression! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasNdanger Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Yeah - I just can't find that statue anywhere - not even in the picture credits of the book. Here's an example of early 17th Century garb... Unfortunately, I can't see the dates...I'm assuming these are also 17th century prints. I dunno, those guys in that second picture remind me of that picture posted earlier, sans fuzzy manacles. das http://www.ajmeerwald.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Some of this stuff is pretty fuzzy and the styles are kinda mixed up. But from the clothing styles I would put a date of no later than 1640 on the first one and 1650s (possibly early 1660s) on the second. The statue looks to be dressed in alot of drapery that makes for good statues, but doesn't actually tell us about the clothing people actually wore at the time. Hey, as an aside, did you know that many of the famous Greek statues are dressed in drapery that is physically impossible? Experimental archeologists went through the trouble of weaving the cloth to period specs and everything and just couldn't make it do what it did on the statues. It was decided that the arrangement of the drapery was thought most pleasing to the eye even though it could not be achieved in real life. So that's statues for ye! The Duguay picture you posted, Das, is just odd. The clothing looks over-simplified for some reason. Don't know why. I can't say it's not a contemporary picture, but it's not really great with details... This is cool! I'm seeing so many pictures I've never seen before! Hey, are any of you lot (not Greg and Ed, of course) East Coast? Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasNdanger Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 I'm from south Joisey, kass... That Duguay pic is kinda odd - it's from a museum (?) in Rio, I think...you can find it through a google image search (I think that pic is from Wikipedia). As far as the other pictures, I think none date earlier than 1640...from what I can make out. But then it begs the question - IF gentlemen wore those softer, shorter boots (instead of riding boots), did the fashion linger over into the GAoP in some sectors of society? For instance, if a 20-year old in 1650 was wearing those boots, would he (out of habit) still wear them in 1690 when he's 60? (if he lived that long) It's like this lady I know who still wears the same clothes that she did in the 60's, because that's what she grew up with and it's her idea of fashion (besides being too cheap to buy new stuff!). THEN we'd have to find out if pirates (or any sort of sailor) would wear such boots in the first place. If boots were as expensive as Foxe indicated, I can imagine that if someone did have a pair, they'd hang onto them for a while. But obviously, from all the pictures, shoes were definitely the thing, however, stiiiiiiiiiill not sure that they were the ONLY thing, all the time. das http://www.ajmeerwald.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirate Petee Posted February 24, 2006 Author Share Posted February 24, 2006 All period pics of bucket style boots, not on horse back. Altough some you can tell are riding boots. Sailors?, I don't know but the second one down appears like they might be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshuaRed Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Kass you know I'm an East Coast boy! :) Whether it's Florida, Maryland, Philly or Maine. And all points in between. I'm a nomad. Das, I just can't see a pair of boots lasting that long. Footwear (especially then) was put thru such rigorous usage without cars to get around in. Unless you could afford a carriage or a horse, you walked. Ah Hogarth! I knew sooner or later he'd show up in this thread! One of my all time favorite artists, and man truly ahead of his time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Petee, where's you get pictures of my high school graduation party? Yo ho ho! Or does nobody actually say that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Petee, this is really GREAT! Thanks! Them's is some boots, fer sure! Some riding. Some not. Some very strange indeed. The second one down, do you think the guy in the Great Coat is wearing boots? I think it's debatable. But I'll give you that. Sailors? Can't say for sure. I can say that the picture is post GAoP though. Hogarth is what, 1740s? The third and fourth pictures show an old man in what are definitely ECW-era bucket boots. I can't see his clothing too well, but the woman in the doorway in the fourth picture is definitely wearing 1630s fashionable clothing. The other people in the pictures are too murky to tell what they're wearing. The guys seated at the table could be either wearing Justacorps or "Soldiers' Coats". They would look the same from the waist up. But it's got me thinking that this is a much early picture. Got a date for it. Cuz I'm gonna say it's no later than 1640 (or at the very least depicting people from the 1640s). I'm gonna have to stick to what I've been saying -- possible but rare in the period. And I don't think they would have ever been the "fashionable" choice for men. Can't tell you about sailors... But thanks, Petee! I never knew there were so many pictures of boots out there! Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 I'm from south Joisey, kass... I'm just wondering who's fairly local to me. I'm in Eastern PA -- can see Central Jersey (and the Delaware River) from my front porch. It seems that I might be spending some time at the PA Ren Faire this summer with my greyhounds, so I wanted to know the odds of meeting any of you fine people there. And I think I owe Petee a drink! Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Lasseter Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Well then... I's in Western PA.... SO Iffn' we bump into one another... t'would be East meets West... Could 'appen.... Truly, D. Lasseter Captain, The Lucy Propria Virtute Audax --- In Hoc Signo Vinces Ni Feidir An Dubh A Chur Ina Bhan Air "If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me." Deuteronomy 32:41 Envy and its evil twin - It crept in bed with slander - Idiots they gave advice - But Sloth it gave no answer - Anger kills the human soul - With butter tales of Lust - While Pavlov's Dogs keep chewin' - On the legs they never trust... The Seven Deadly Sins http://www.colonialnavy.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasNdanger Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 I didn't make it to the faire last year, but the year before ('04) I met some greyhound folks - might that have been you?? Have you ever looked into Fort Mifflin events? I know it's a tad later (c. Revolutionary War...when we KICKED some British BUM! ....oh, stop pouting Foxe, I secretly wish that the Brits had won, then I'd have a really cool accent!). I also have some have friends who are re-enactors with the Pennsylvania Navy - they participate in the Seige of Fort Mifflin in November each year. In the past they've had musketeer training and other events, so they cover periods other than the Rev War era. Oh, and you'd BETTER wear yer boots, it tends to be kinda damp and muddy there... das http://www.ajmeerwald.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirate Petee Posted February 24, 2006 Author Share Posted February 24, 2006 Kass, William Hogarth (November 10, 1697 – October 26, 1764), his early stuff is about 1720. The second picture, the gentelman in the great coat. Those a definatly boots you can go to this web site and they have a REALLY good zoom feature for viewing art. http://www.thinker.org/ The second to the last pic, the fellow in the red to the left those are a bucket style. I think the period is 1690, sorry the painting was bigger when I downloaded it. The last one I can't remember the artists name, but he was german, also you can zoom that one at the San Fransisco Art Musem web site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Hi Petee! [love the music on your website, by the way] Okay, is this particular picture from the 1720s though. Looks 1740s to me you see... Understood about the guy in the Great Coat. I believe you. Second to the last pic, I didn't comment because I couldn't really see. Does the male dancer also have boots on. THAT would be very strange, but I think that's what I'm seeing. The clothing looks like 1670s. It almost looks like William of Orange and Mary Stuart dancing there. Do you see what I mean about the third and fourth picture though? Totally different kind of clothing on the people. Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Dorian, it is always a possibility as my husband is originally from Lewistown. Das, it was the Pennsylvania State Navy that first got me into the 18th century! I know Damien from way back. Made his wife a waistcoat when she was playing a boy. He taught me how to crew a cannon, he did! I LOVE Mifflin. We're actually talking about having a Pirate era event there this year. I will keep you informed! Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirate Petee Posted February 24, 2006 Author Share Posted February 24, 2006 Thank you. Yeah I do see what ya mean. There are actually a couple other etchings of the same little fat guy on a horse, its kinda like a cartoon series. Can't tell what time period they are supposed to be though, I'll post them later. On one of them it shows a pistol bucket on a horse, kinda cool. Das, yes I have heard those shanties, there are actually two different ones, don't know if they come from the same time periods though I'll have to go searching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Cool... Hey Das, I forgot to answer part of your post: no, it wouldn't have been me with the greyhounds in 2004. I just adopted mine this fall. And I don't think I've been to the PA Faire since 1996 or so. But this year, I just might make a nuisance of myself! Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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