dasNdanger Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 Hey, I wear the princess shoes too. Can we have a picture of that, please?? My point is that wearing of the boots would be dressing down. Also like I said earlier, that I'm not sure a pirate would want to dress up at all, calling attention to himself. I'm surprised I don't have you guys pulling your hair out by now!! See, I'm thinking more along the lines of what DL is wearing in that picture - that looks...well, reasonable...to me. Even with shoes it would work...and perhaps a short coat if necessary. I guess my problem is that doggone justaucorps...wear one of those, and you almost need the bucket boots and giant, feathered hat. THAT would be dressing up...but I also see your point as to how boots could be viewed as dressing down...a bit 'crass', perhaps, in a world of buckle shoes. As far as not drawing attention to themselves - yeah, they wouldn't want to do that. But if they went ashore looking like pirates/sailors, then I'd think they would draw attention to themselves if everyone else around donned fancy dress. Blending into society makes sense...all depends on what society looked like at the time. If they went into a busy port town, staying in their sailor garb would certainly be appropriate if they wanted to blend in, but if they were venturing further inland or staying ashore, especially for any duration, I would think they'd take to lubbers clothes to blend in. But maybe not. It's not as if people had closets full of clothes back then...and most probably had to make do with one style of clothing. Yeah - I've been enjoying this discussion - well, all the discussions here...nice to have an intelligent exchange for a change... das http://www.ajmeerwald.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 But Das, bucket boots weren't worn with Justacorps. They are too early. They were worn with doublets fifty years earlier. If you are fashionable enough to be wearing a Justacorps, you're fashionable enough to be wearing shoes, not some fifty-year-old bucket boots! Different time period, see? Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 If they went into a busy port town, staying in their sailor garb would certainly be appropriate if they wanted to blend in.... I don't think so, Das. Remember Foxe said something about sailors being easily-identifiable as seamen because of the way they moved, their speech, and lots of other things that had little to do with the way they dressed. I can't quote his sources to you (he can) but people could recognize a sailor from yards away, and not just by his clothes. So I doubt any attempt to "blend" on the part of a pirate would be very successful. But this makes me ask myself why they would want to blend in with society anyway. Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasNdanger Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 [i don't think so, Das. Remember Foxe said something about sailors being easily-identifiable as seamen because of the way they moved, their speech, and lots of other things that had little to do with the way they dressed. I can't quote his sources to you (he can) but people could recognize a sailor from yards away, and not just by his clothes. So I doubt any attempt to "blend" on the part of a pirate would be very successful. Now YOU'VE got Peteeitis!!!! What I meant is that, in a busy port town (with LOTS of sailors about), a pirate in his regular, shipboard clothes would just blend in with the rest of the sailors. I think Peteeitis is contagious.... das http://www.ajmeerwald.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirate Petee Posted February 22, 2006 Author Share Posted February 22, 2006 Hey, I wear the princess shoes too. Can we have a picture of that, please?? Although I have never heard them been called princess shoes. Kass, I hate to disagree with you but bucket boots were worn with justa corps or forck coat what ever you want to call it. That I do have pictures of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 Show me! And not that 19th century drawing of Morgan. Period pictures of bucket boots worn with Justacorps. I wanna see! Das, of course I have Peteeitis! The voices in his head are talking to me. But I understand you now -- pirates would look like other sailors. Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hurricane Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 This is a great discussion. Love reading through the threads. The term princess shoes actually derives from the source of the buckles on my shoes. They were given to me by a festival princess I was dating at the time. So they've always been referred to as the princess shoes since. I think a Justacorps would look silly with bucket boots. The painting I saw in Jamaica was silk stockings and shoes... Again, 10 to 20 years doesn't seem like much difference in historical perspective, but in real time it is a lot of time for things to go in and out of fashion. I go back to the arguments about skinny ties vs. wide ties or three button suits vs. leisure suits. Anyone ever see Somewhere in Time? A smaltzy movie but he made his best guess what a person would wear back in the time he wanted to go and he was 10 years out of style or something like that - and his bowler stood out among those gents with top hats. A crummy example history wise but I think the basic logic is sound. Only so much my rum sodden head can think of after a long day at work. - Hurricane -- Hurricane ______________________________________________________________________ http://piratesofthecoast.com/images/pyracy-logo1.jpg Captain of The Pyrates of the Coast Author of "Memoirs of a Buccaneer: 30 Year Before the Mast" (Published in Fall 2011) Scurrilous Rogue Stirrer of Pots Fomenter of Mutiny Bon Vivant & Roustabout Part-time Carnival Barker Certified Ex-Wife Collector Experienced Drinking Companion "I was screwed. I readied my confession and the sobbing pleas not to tell my wife. But as I turned, no one was in the bed. The room was empty. The naked girl was gone, like magic." "Memoirs of a Buccaneer: 30 Years Before the Mast" - Amazon.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirate Petee Posted February 22, 2006 Author Share Posted February 22, 2006 Show me! And not that 19th century drawing of Morgan. Period pictures of bucket boots worn with Justacorps. I wanna see!Das, of course I have Peteeitis! The voices in his head are talking to me. But I understand you now -- pirates would look like other sailors. No, they are period. Let me find them. Foxe has the other part of that pic, but yes its bucket boots with a Justa whatsit. I have more, but I'm at work and don't want to scan them in right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 Okey doke, Petee! I wait with baited breath. The basic logic is sound, Hurricane. This is one of the reason that I try to stick to ensembles that I've seen in period paintings or woodcuts and not try to mix and match, even if the elements existed in the same time period. I mean think of how weird it looks to see a guy wearing sneakers with a tuxedo. Or have you ever seen a woman get her hair and makeup done before her wedding, but she's wearing jeans and a T-shirt. It looks really odd because it's obvious that she's all "done up" but her clothes don't match that vibe. So instead of having a variety of things I can mix and match, I have outfits -- hat to shoes -- that I know were worn together because I saw them together in a variety of period illustrations. Doing it any other way is pretty foreign to me. I never forget the vast amount that we don't know, that we'll never know. We don't realize it consciously, but there are dozens of subtle clues in our clothing about who we are and what our place in society is. Those are the kinds of things we can't know about the Golden Age of Piracy (or any age but our own). So my way isn't creative at all. But I derive alot of fun out of "getting all the pieces". Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 Okay. Undoubtedly period pictures, Petee. But I see a man on horseback wearing riding boots, not "bucket boots". And I see a boot with a spur -- another riding boot -- without seeing the rest of the clothes on the man wearing them. The obvious man in the Justacorps at the back is wearing stockings and shoes. I can tell by the typical bulge over his breeches bottoms that you see from the late 17th until the mid-18th century. Is it possible that we're getting hung up on the term "bucket boots" here? Because the boots called "bucket boots" that were fashionable in the 1620s through 1650s have a huge thigh-high top on them that folds down when not on a horse, forming the bucket shape. These were fashionable and were worn by men when not mounted. Many boots in many eras had the knee-protecting cuff, but it's not a "bucket boot". And riding boots before and after this period were generally not walked around in. They're uncomfortable to walk in. Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirate Petee Posted February 22, 2006 Author Share Posted February 22, 2006 So my way isn't creative at all. But I derive alot of fun out of "getting all the pieces". Ain't nothin wrong with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 Just different ideas of fun is all. I gotta tell you that one of the reasons I go to Faires is to see all the outrageously cool outfits people come up with. I could never invent something as cool as what people at the Faires come up with. I love to see the creativity on display. People really put alot into their stuff. Wouldn't be quite the same if we all had the same set of personal "rules", you know? Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirate Petee Posted February 22, 2006 Author Share Posted February 22, 2006 Yes, I think we or I was suffering from a case of Peteeitis, or what ever the disorder is called. Which brings me to another question, I was refering to any boot with the upper flap as a "bucket boot", just for generalization, but what of the different styles. I do have other illustrations I'll try to get up tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 Cool! I love seeing new illustrations. You don't happen to have a painter and title for the one with the horse, do you, Petee? I'd like to use that one... As for other styles of boots, I think Foxe addressed this already but I'll reiterate: boots are not formal wear. They are a leg-covering designed for riding a horse. So the whole idea of "dressing up" and wearing boots is pretty wrong until the modern era. I mean, a man wearing boots would be looked at funny at Court, at a ball, at a wedding, at dinner, at any event where one would be expected to "dress up". And I think he also stated that boots aren't something sailors tend to wear for practical reasons. Nowadays, boots have rubber heels and all kinds of things that make them good in wet conditions. Before the late 19thc, rubber was not in use yet. This means they were slippery when wet. Not something you'd want to wear on the dekc of a ship. We want to wear boots because WE think they're cool (and we think period shoes and stockings look geeky). But if we're trying to figure out what people in the Golden Age of Piracy thought was cool, we have to put ourselves in their place and judge through their eyes. That's tough to do not being able to read 350-year-old minds. But we can see in their portraiture what people wanted to be painted wearing (aka their idea of cool). And in portraits I'm not seeing boots at all except on men on horseback. Believe me, I LOVE boots. But I can't wear 'em unless I'm on a horse. Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Wow! so much to answer! DL, at the very least you should be wearing a hat. On seamen being unique: it's a little post GAoP but I've always loved this quotation of Sir Henry Fielding “The seamen here are a generation differing from all the world. When one goes into Rotherhithe and Wapping, which places are chiefly inhabited by sailors, a man would be apt to suspect himself in another country. Their manner of living, speaking, acting, dressing, and behaving, are so peculiar to themselves.” There's plenty of other evidence, but I think that's the most succint. I guess my problem is that doggone justaucorps...wear one of those, and you almost need the bucket boots and giant, feathered hat Not in the 18thC you don't, that's just our modern perception, as Kass already said. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capnwilliam Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Boots seem to have been "in" during the buccaneering era, "out" during the Golden Age, and "in" again during the early 1800's. I'd be bit cautious about describing boots as "in" for the buccaneering era, but they were certainly less "out" than in the GAoP. What I meant by "in" during the buccaneering era was not that everybody and his Bro WORE 'em then: only that it was a fashion item among the well-heeled (bad unintentional pun). In the GAOP they were "out" among those who could afford them. Capt. William "The fight's not over while there's a shot in the locker!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasNdanger Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 I guess my problem is that doggone justaucorps...wear one of those, and you almost need the bucket boots and giant, feathered hat Not in the 18thC you don't, that's just our modern perception, as Kass already said. That's what I meant, Petee...I mean, Foxe... I know that the boots and the coat are from two different eras, but I understand why some combine the two...if for nothing else than to not look so top-heavy. Today (with our perceptions), when someone puts on that prodigious coat, you almost need the big hat and big boots to balance it all out...otherwise, dudes end up looking like Ben Franklin... das http://www.ajmeerwald.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Gotcha both. Peteeitis cured. Fair points. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Matt Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Why can't I just wear cowboy boots? TAKE COVER! You will be flogged. And God willing, come morning, you will be flogged some more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenighs Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Authentic? Note the buckle shoes. Re-enacting something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshuaRed Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 I almost woke the whole house up laughing my ass off at that pic! HA! He's so serious! It reminds me of something...just can't place it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenighs Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 I almost woke the whole house up laughing my ass off at that pic! HA! He's so serious! It reminds me of something...just can't place it. Maybe it reminded you of a scary 50-year old Florida guy trying to be Peter Pan. If that link doesn't work anymore, this one will. You were warned! scary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Bo of the WTF co. Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 AAAAGGHHH!! Saddle the horses boy! After viewin that blue wraith I'd rather face th' Gov'nors Guard un-armed and drunk! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman of Fortune Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Pete..... got to commend you for your efforts. If a picture of a GAoP sailor with bucket boots is ever going to be found, I bet its you that finds it! The picture of the man in the Yellow justaucorps is very interesting. Its not just "some guy with a justaucorps and boots", Its William of Orange at the Battle of Boyne. I am not sure when it was painted, but the battle was fought in 1690. If you want to see more monarchs with justaucorps and riding boots, then google William III, Louis XIV. George I, or just about any monarch (or General) and, if they are on a horse, then they will have Cavalry Bucket Boots. So, except for proving the point that Justaucorps and Boots were worn together, it really doesn't move the sailor/boot debate any closer to the goal line (whatever the hell that is). The boots in the painting (and any GAoP Painting) are tools used for riding horses. I think we can all come to the agreement that boots were worn for riding during the period. But a picture of a period Blacksmith might show him with a heavy leather apron. Can we then justify the use of a heavy apron for a sailor? A coffee house employee? A coachman? We can't claim that sailors or anyone else wore a blacksmith apron unless they were doing black smith work. What we are really trying to decide (or what the debate is really about) is: Druing the GAoP, were bucket boots/cavalry boots worn by people that are not on horseback or in a riding situation as every day clothing as part of a "fashion statement"? That is what it really gets down to, because every re-enactor justification for boots is that 1) they stole them from a fashionable gentleman 2)they are imitating the upper classes 3)that because they are pirates, they wear what they want to wear. All the evidence that we have is that boots as a fashion statement (that is not for riding) don't appear till way after the GAoP. People who were riding horses (and could afford them) wore boots with spurs, but those going into town to visit the coffee house or to deal with merchants, or to go to court, or to go to a ship all seem to wear shoes. And If everyones kit was as good as William III's, I would keep my mouth shut and just say, "wow.... look a the Monarch!" . But sadly, its not the case. So get the bucket boots... and a horse too! And a really nice embroidered Justaucorps, with matching breeches, smallsword, waistcoat, swordbelt and hat.... and you will have a perfect GAoP era gentlemen's riding impression. I think that there is a big difference in the man on horse back and these pirate "re-enactors". ***PICTURE REMOVED BECAUSE IT OFFENDED FANTASY PIRATES SORRY*** ***PICTURE REMOVED BECAUSE IT OFFENDED FANTASY PIRATES SORRY*** ***PICTURE REMOVED BECAUSE IT OFFENDED FANTASY PIRATES SORRY*** ***PICTURE REMOVED BECAUSE IT OFFENDED FANTASY PIRATES SORRY*** ***PICTURE REMOVED BECAUSE IT OFFENDED FANTASY PIRATES SORRY*** Again, browse through an early edition of Johnson which has contemporary pictures of pirates (or at least the best guesses of contemporary artists), and your vast collection of original 1690-1720 artwork and show me 1 (one) picture of a GAoP sailor wearing riding boots? If a calvaryman walking through a cartouche on a 1700 map, or a Monarch ( or other member of aristocracy) on a horse is all you need to justify a pirate, or even a pirate captain wearing bucket boots then go right ahead. I would love to hear the answer when a member of the public (or other re-enactor) asks at an event: Joe Public (or ?) "wow... cool boots, where did you get them?" Boot Clad Pirate "Thanks... a place called pirateswearboots.com" JP: "Hmmm.... did pirates wear boots like that?" BCP: "Well, I saw on a forum this picture of William of Orange riding a horse and he had boots.... they were not really boots like this, but theywere boots.... and I think there is a tiny picture of some cavalry guy on a map walking through the scene that has boots on.... again they were not boots like this.... but, they are cool aren't they?" JP: "Yes..... when was spandex invented?"..... GoF Come aboard my pirate re-enacting site http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/ Where you will find lots of information on building your authentic Pirate Impression! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirate Petee Posted February 23, 2006 Author Share Posted February 23, 2006 I almost woke the whole house up laughing my ass off at that pic! HA! He's so serious! It reminds me of something...just can't place it. Micheal Jackson? WTF? Hide your children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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