The Boots We Wear (On Bucket Boots)

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

The painting Pete posted of the three French sailors watching the naked girls dive for mussels was done by a Frenchman by the name of Duplessis. He claims that this imagge was done from life, on the Island of Tierra Del Fuego, and is from the GAoP period. I think Das might have a valid point on the French! GO GO GO!

Capt. Bo

[JoshuaRed]

Thanks for posting that Carter.

Lots of good info there, but I think this statement:

Thigh high boots were originally worn by pirates and smugglers, who tucked contraband or "booty" into them. The practice gave rise to the term, "bootlegging'.

is little more than a sweeping generalization that this writer is using because it sounds good. There is absolutely no reason a "pirate" qualifies as a "Trade" that requires it's own gear as this text implies, the way a Fisherman does or a Calvaryman. Furthermore, how much booty could one possibly tuck into their boots and still expect to walk? Wouldn't boots full of booty jingle and clank with each step? Wouldn't the coins or jewels get stuck under your foot and hurt like hell? Wouldn't every pickpocket kid in town just reach down into your boot and help themselves?

[Pirate Petee]

Hey guys, guess what kinda boot I really like.

Oh yeah, the football boot.

Sorry, once again refer to the plunder boot topic for explination.

[Skull pyrate Carter]

yeah, so I sent him an email asking if he can back up the boots thing.

[Pirate Petee]

Touche, pary, repost, thrust, or lung.

[Fox]

So Carter's source says that boots went out of fashion, even in France, and then made a comeback in the form of the top-boot during the 18thC, implying that at the beginning of the century they were not fashionable.

There has already been a bit of discussion about "bootlegging" and the experts agree that the term dates to waaay after the GAoP

FWIW, I know that Jonathon Wild, the Thief-taker General regularly wore armour.

[Pirate Petee]

When you walk through a storm

Hold your head up high

And don't be afraid of the dark

At the end of a storm is a golden sky

And the sweet silver song of a lark

Walk on through the wind

Walk on through the rain

Tho' your dreams

Be tossed and blown

Walk on..

Walk on..

With hope in your heart

And you'll never walk alone

You'll never walk alone

Walk on..

Walk on..

With hope in your heart

And you'll never walk alone

You'll never walk alone

LIVERPOOL< LIVERPOOL, LIVERPOOL

GO REDS!

[JoshuaRed]

FWIW, I know that Jonathon Wild, the Thief-taker General regularly wore armour.

Foxe, you ever read any of David Liss' fiction? Particularly, A Conspiracy of Paper? Wild is characterized in this, very well I might add.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Bwahhaahaahaaa.....

This is great news!

SP Carter doesn't realize it yet, but he is making the first steps down the road to become an authentic re-enactor!

Welcome to the dark side my friend!

What you have actually started to do, is to no believe anything that we say here, but doing your own research!

Now I am not going to comment on the sources, but I will say they are painting with a mighty big brush....

During the eighteenth century boots had surpassed shoes as the fashionable footwear for men

Now don't read this to mean that from 1701 boots were the most fashionable, because that is not what it is saying. I think we can all agree that by the end of the 18th C, boots are very fashionable...

The stickey wicket is finding out when that trend started... acording to your source, the earliest 18th century refrence is 1730...

Napolean boots cut high in the front and worn to the knees first appeared round about 1730.

In the 17th century, again, the refrences seem to relate to military soldiers and horsemen/cavalry. We have agreed to this as we can document GAoP era horsemen and military troops wearing boots.

Now, I take some of it with a grain of salt, the hole bootlegging thing I think is a stretch.

Does anyone have the Oxford English Dictionary that lists when words first came into use with their definitions?

GoF

[Gentleman of Fortune]

DasnDanger

Interesting... the Puss in Boots thing. I guess Puss in Latchet Shoes doesn't have the same ring to it.

But, though you are correct, the story "came out" in 1697... acutally, it was a collection of stories "Mother Goose" that contained P & B that came out in 1697, apparently the P&B story actually dates earlier... probably when boots were more in fashion

Perrault published The Master Cat; or Puss in Boots in his Histoires ou Contes du temps passe in 1697, but the story of the trickster cat preceded Perrault's tale by a few centuries. A variant of the story, Constantino Fortunato, appears in Straparola's Piacevole notti (Night 2, Fable 1) in the sixteenth century (ca. 1550-3). Most scholars think that Straparola derived his story from oral folklore, but no evidence is available to substantiate the theory beyond the general popularity and worldwide spread of the tale. Giambattista Basile also included a trickster cat story--Gagliuso (Day 2, Tale 4)--in Il Pentamerone in the seventeenth century (ca. 1634-6) (Opie 1974). An alternate translation of Gagliuso is Caglioso which is favored by current scholars.

GoF

[Patrick Hand]

You gotta admire Petee’s tenacity on his search for documentation for bucket boots.

He may never find the “proof” but he keep looking… AND what if during his search he finds something really interesting?

Petee… I don’t want to dissuade you from your search…But why not join up with the Buccaneers? There are now 3 of us on the West Coast , and your bucket boots are period for Buccaneer….

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

Aye aye Mr. Hand!

Because I do have horses, I will eventually be investing in the big boots and a pair of nub spurs in case I ever do ride in to a gathering. I've got the top boots and tack for my current 1750-1790 kit.

Any how Pete... Come on in, I'm on the Mid-West coast...(Thats what the classic rock station here on the lake calls it )

I find it discouraging that so many events and forts don't allow horses. How the hell do they think buisiness was conducted anyhow!?! I'd sure use mine more if they'd let me!

Patrick, I'm thinkin a two wheeled cart pulled by a donkey for the rum cask and the meat and such. This I'll work on as I've got access to a donkey that thinks he's a dog/pet anyway.

Pete.... BE AN INDIVIDUAL>>> you have nothing to prove to anyone but YOURSELF mate!

Capt. Bo

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Yes... Pete is a bulldog isn't he....

I can't help but encourage him though....

Because one day, in his search to prove boots ( or us wrong) or whatever...

The lightbulb is gonna click, and we will have one more tenacious, thoughtful, inquisitive re-enactor on the dark side... with us.

you go Pete!

GoF

ps

Bwahhahahhaaaha

[Kathyrn Ramsey]

The lightbulb is gonna click,

Whats that lightbulb thingy you talk about....

[Fox]

… AND what if during his search he finds something really interesting?

Then I'll be the first to congratulate him!

Josh, no I haven't, but I'll keep my eyes open. I've recently finished reading "Thief-taker General; the Rise and Fall of Jonathan Wild" by Gerald Howson - fascinating biography and general insight into GAoP era law and order.

[JoshuaRed]

The interesting thing about law-enforcement in England then was that it the machine of justice required some THOROUGHLY lined pockets to begin working. A poor person who was a victim of crime was pretty much out of luck.

Foxe, you can check out Liss' site Here.

I highly recommend his books -- very intelligent, very exciting without falling victim to the typical adventure-fiction traps. He's been tagged as inventing a new genre in fiction - the "financial thriller".

A Conspiracy of Paper deals with the South Sea Bubble, Jonathan Wild, and many other cool GAOP phenomena.

The Coffee Trader deals with the arrival of coffee as a tradeable commodity in the stock market in the 1660s.

[Hawkyns]

When you walk through a storm

Hold your head up high

And don't be afraid of the dark

At the end of a storm is a golden sky

And the sweet silver song of a lark

Walk on through the wind

Walk on through the rain

Tho' your dreams

Be tossed and blown

Walk on..

Walk on..

With hope in your heart

And you'll never walk alone

You'll never walk alone

Walk on..

Walk on..

With hope in your heart

And you'll never walk alone

You'll never walk alone

LIVERPOOL< LIVERPOOL, LIVERPOOL

GO REDS!

Right, that's it, you're out of here.

You can discuss bucket tops, elf boots, waders, or ballet slippers and their relationship to pyracy all day long, you can even wear them and I won't care.

But Liverpool? LIVERPOOL???

Get the hell out of my forum , NOW!!!!!!!!

Man U!! Man U!! Man U!!

Hawkyns

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Hey Josh

How about a book club?

You send me the Coffe Trader, I'll send you.... Have you read 1632 By Eric Flint?

Or??????

GoF

[One And Only LT]

I just figure that Petee wears his bucket boots because he has really ugly legs...... not nice shapely legs like the rest of us....

Hey.... this is the time period when it was men who showed off thier legs.....

Iffin' Pettee has ugly legs or not is unbeknow to me, but he did say he had buckle shoes...member...thar's gonna be sum leg there unless he does not wear slops...then I be a missin sumthin...

Bein' the kind of lass I am, won't mind a leg or two, ya know,

Turkey legs that is. So show them legs and bring on the slops! Thar' almost as good as kilts.

[One And Only LT]

okay my first real research into this discussion.

(http://podiatry.curtin.edu.au/boot.html#chop) Cameron Kippen, Curtin Universty of Technology, Perth WA states on his site:

Boots of the Sixteenth Century

During the sixteenth century boots were worn by the military or part of hunting attire. As war tore through Europe in the following centuries, boots again became the fashion. High boots were popular in Spain where they seemed to originate from. Henry IV of France (1589-1610) enjoyed wearing the best of leathers and relalised the craftmen in Franch were inferior to elsewhere. He commissioned a tanner to study leather work in Hungary where the old trades still existed. His influence made boots very fashionable in France and they were allowed to be worn in salons as well as on the dance floor. The style of boots varied relating to whatever purpose they were put to. Boots were distinctively men's fashion everybit as much as the codpiece. According to Girotti (1997) to make the boots fit tightly around the leg, they were first soaked in water. Once they dried on the leg it was very difficult for the man wearing the boots to bend their knees. Dismounted horsemen walked with stiffened legs. This may have given rise to a distinctive swaggering gait which at the time was considered very macho.

Boots of the Seventeenth Century

By the beginning seventeenth century boots had become fashionable for men and were worn at the English court during Charles I reign. (1600-1649). Charles suffered from osteomalacia (rickets) as a child and was feared would never walk without the aid of calipers. The Royal shoemaker designed boots which has concealed brass supports in the heel and ankle. Once an adult he was able to walk without the aid of his supports but continued to wear boot for preference. Tightly fitting boots became the fashion and were folded back into deep tops. The front flap of the boots provided a handsome strap to fit spurs onto. Later soft boots with baggy creases and full tops became the fashion at European courts. Ladies continued to wear slippers with pointed toes and in some cases high heeled pumps. (Burnett, 1926). Cordoba was the centre for leather craft in Europe and the term cordwainer refers to a man who has derived his craft from the Spanish city of Cordoba. Craftsmen were sent to Cordoba to learn the secrets of the leather trade and bring them back to France. Cordoban boots were soft and worn crumpled or with a kink. A large piece of leather shapped like a butterfly was stitched across the instep to hold the golden or silver rowel spurs. A soulette was a strap fastened under the foot, which also held the spur in position. Poor quality boots were made from cow hide which was heavier but more durable. The lace edged boothose were worn inside the boot and were made from linen. These protected the delicate silk stockings from being soiled by the leather. From 1610 onwards boots were worn indoors, sometimes with an overshoe. (After peace was ratified in the Treaty of Westphilia in 1648, boots were no longer worn indoors.) Riding boots were worn high with widely flared or funnel tops protecting the knee when riding. This part of the boot could be turned down for town wear. Already in 1627 gentlemen were wearing light coloured boots with red heels and the edges of the soles were stained red. Under Louis XIII (1601-1643) a shorter, lighter model of boot known as the Ladrine was worn. By 1630 a protective additional sole or golosh made from thick leather or wood was used to keep the fine boots and shoes from the dirt of the streets. Boots were only accepted for riding, hunting and walking by this time. Restoration of the Stuarts to the English thrown (1660) brought the heeled boot to England. Men wore boots with very long stockings which flared at the top of the leg and caught the foot with a strap under the instep. These were worn over silk stockings. Boots were worn tight on the leg but the top could be turned over. The footwear was made of soft leather.The Cavalier boot had a very wide top which could be turned down for town wear, showing silk or coloured leather lining. The width of the leg had increased and the boots were worn wide across the toes. Toes became square and this fashion remained popular till the end of the century. Aristocracy preferred light, high heeled shoes and boot but the working class wore more practical and cheaper shoes, which were low heeled. Usually dark brown, with leather latchet ties, deep square toes and closed sides. In 1660 the France of Louis XIV became the fashion capital and shoes for men were preferred over boots. From 1660 onwards decorative frills, or cannons, were worn below the knee and hence shoes became more popular. At the end of the reign of Charles II (1630-85) the militarty still wore an old style heavy boot. This was replaced by a light leather leggings covering the boot called houseaux. The heavy boot was still used for riding. In 1663 the first seamless boot was made by a Gascon shoemaker called Lestage. King William of Orange (1650-1702) introduced the jackboot, which was of sturdy construction and worn high above the knee, quartered, and heeled with immense breadth for the toes. Thigh high boots were fashionable for soldiers and horsemen, Worn tight on the calf they were ample enough to be folded over in a buccaneer fashion above the knee. Sometimes covered in decoration with punched designs they covered the whole leg and were held in place with garters or suspenders from the doublet. The above knee section was known as bucket tops and were worn with leathers and spurs. The boot offered protective armour to the leg and is still worn by the Housuehold Cavalry. Before the advent of gum boots the style of boot was worn by fishwermen. Thigh high boots were originally worn by pirates and smugglers, who tucked contraband or "booty" into them. The practice gave rise to the term, "bootlegging'.

Boots of the Eighteenth Century

During the eighteenth century boots had surpassed shoes as the fashionable footwear for men. They became more refined and slimmed down in style. Worn with turned down tops, lined in brown, to contrast with the black leather of the rest of the boot, the top boots were distinctly elegant. The style was based on the boots worn by horse jockeys who partook in the newly fashionable sport of horse racing (Baynes K , Baynes K, 1979). The black and brown boots worn to below the knee were for outdoors. O'Keeffe, (1996) considered women would have less need to venture outdoors and hence their shoes were more flimsy by comparison. Tans and pale shades were popular with the gentry. Dandified young Englishmen became obsessed with all things foreign and were christened Macaronis by satirists. They used to have iron heel clips fitted to draw attention to themselves as they walked through the streets. George Beau Brummell (1790- 1840) epitomised the new age macho dresser and as a dandy was quite different to fops of the previous century. Brummell had certain ideocynrcacies and was reputed to have his boots polished with champagne. Not only that he insisted in having the soles of his boots polished at the same time as the uppers. The reason being he was concerned the edge of the boots were not perfectly shined. Brummell sported the two most popular styles of the time. These were the English, John Bull (or tall boot) and the Austrian, Hess boot. Hess boots took their name from the German state of Hesse, where they were made. The hesse boot was knee high and cut on a V at the front. Often the boot had a decorative tassle. In time the Wellington boot superceded the popularity of the hessian boot (also called Souvaroffs). This was a slim cut leather boot which was worn under narrow trousers. Napolean boots cut high in the front and worn to the knees first appeared round about 1730. The design allowed the knee to bend as well as offer protection to the joint when exposed during horseriding. It was common practice to wear long woollen stockings under the knee high riding boots. The laced ankle boot we know associate with modern militaria originated from the Blucher shoe which was based on a boot worn by Prince of Wahlstadt, Gebhard Leberecht von Blucher, a Prussian field Marshall. His popularity was second only to Wellington as a hero of the battle of Waterloo. The blucher or derby was a high cut shoe with a tongue cut in one piece with the forepart and fastened with laces. Women's boots were a modified version of men's footwear designed for equestrian persuit. However it did not escape the attention of French writer and wit, Nicolas-Sebastien Chamfort (1741-1794), who wrote in Maxims's and Considerations of the common habit for ladies to tip their man servents to help remove their tight boots. Chamfort was of course referring to flirtations resulting from exposure of forbiden flesh. A common practice among the upper classes. In 1770 boots were introduced to dandies who started to wear their boots to half calf. Splatter dashes were puttees or leggings that buttoned on the inside of the leg and worn to protect the delicate silk hose during inclement weather. Jockey boots were introduced in 1780. However the need to protect feet from the elements necessitated new materials be developed and during the 1790's patent leather became available. Shoes and boots treated with the new process became a very popular fashion on both sides of the Atlantic. By the end of the century young men wore the popular hussar bushkins which were short boots with a dip in the front, mid tibia. French top boots with a turned over top were also fashionable. V-fronted tasselled hessian boots were made from soft leather and proved popular with men.

just one source. But think about it. We spend time looking at records and paintings. Wouldn't someone such as a podiatrist maybe hold the key to this discussion?

I like this, very informative. :) Thank thee.

[One And Only LT]

I like all the pictures, but remember as an artist, feet~especially bare feet hard to draw...boots much easier Just kiddin'.

I will stick to mine own deduction...what waters are ye from? Pirates wore what they stole. So if a Rogue, a hiwayman, a farmer, a King, whomever/whatever was on a ship...or if cargo aboard a ship that pirates raided and it was a succsessful raid... they got to wear it, for better or worst.

So in theory, you need to know what ships ye are attacking~ then ye boots will be right in style. It's been a grand debate Pirate Petee.

[Patrick Hand]

What waters are ye from? Pirates wore what they stole. So if a Rogue, a hiwayman, a farmer, a King, whomever/whatever was on a ship..

Sorry... but how often did Highwaymen, farmers and Kings go to sea to get robbed by Pyrates?

I don't mean to be so blunt...... but that post just didn't work....... If Pyrates wore what they stole. then they would have worn what was common..... I just can't see a bunch of horse riding Highwaymen in bucket boots sailing around the Carribean....

[JoshuaRed]

Yeah I'm with Pat 100% on this -- that post makes NO sense whatsoever in terms of trying to construct an explanation for wearing boots. Sorry LT.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

ohhhhh.... don't be so hard on the LT....

Can you imagine that, coming from me???

There are a lot of pirate re-enactors that cling to the belief of steal and wear pirate clothing. I agree, to a point but...

LT

This topic comes up from time to time, and while I agree that pirates would probably upgrade their wardrobe when the oportunity arose, the real question is what kind of up grade opportunities would present themselves to your average pirate.

My comments usually pertain to the GAoP (1690-1720ish) and for that time frame, in general, the Pirates would be raiding commerce ships along the eastern seaboard and/or the Carribean.

More ofthen than not, these ships would contain building materials, foodstuffs, indian trade items, bulk cloth etc.

Now, I am sure there was the occasional passanger going to the Americas with their fancy clothing items on board, but they would be far more likely to run into a undermanned trade ship then the anything else. That ship would probably contain sailors, in a condition not much better or worse then the pirates.

Now, you CAN re-create the persona of the lucky pirate captain that "stole" the latest fashions on their way to America.... and you would be in good company with the 100s of other captains at the faire that did the same thing.

Won't bother me a bit....

But, in the realm of authentically portraying GAoP pirates, common isn't a bad word, its a goal.... so the bulk of us are trying to look like the average sailor.

And lastly,

As I said in a previous post, it really is hard to put together a high fashion gentlemen's out fit... this is what you are shooting for

http://www.vam.ac.uk/collections/fashion/r...wool/index.html

which would be a serious undertaking...

GoF

[Capt. Sterling]

And lastly,

As I said in a previous post, it really is hard to put together a high fashion gentlemen's out fit... this is what you are shooting for

http://www.vam.ac.uk/collections/fashion/r...wool/index.html

which would be a serious undertaking...

GoF

Not hard to put together, if you know your stuff and are good with a needle, just possibly costly... and GOF this is not a gentleman's suit, it is assumed to be a younger boy's. The V&A's book, Four Hundred Years of Fashion, I believe, goes into further detail about this outfit. I'm still unpacking after the move and haven't come across my copy yet or I would type it out for you...

Hector