'Slops' Not Period?

[MadMike]

I spent over two years researching period documentation for an article I wrote several years ago on a specific rifle (Jesse Melot of "The Rifle Shoppe" included portions of it in his catalog).

The material was readily available in public libraries long before the advent of the internet (no one could be bothered to do the research and piece the facts together). The point is, there are many period journals, estate inventories, contracts, and dozens of period pictures yet to be examined before reaching a final conclusion.

Yours, Mike

[blackjohn]

Haha... my personally, I don't believe in "final conclusion." Ymmv.

This phenomena can be seen in recent years with two of my favorite articles of women's clothing - the miniskirt and the tube top. The miniskirt came about in the late 60s, disappeared for the 70s, 80s, and reappeared in the late 90s (rough dates). The tube top appeared in... the late 70s? Went away for a couple decades, and now every once in awhile I see one.

I suppose if one dug, one could find someone in a miniskirt in the 70s or 80s, but if so it'll be a rarity.

[blackjohn]

My favourite example is cartridge pleating.  It's all the rage in the 16th and 17th centuries.  Then almost as soon as the turn of the 18th century (actually, it stopped in the last quarter of the 17thc), it disappears.  And you don't see cartridge pleats again until the 19th century.

Kass....

I am REALLY curious. What exactly is "cartridge pleating" ? Can you show an example ?

>>>>> Cascabel

please do so, but as a separate thread!

[Cire]

Haha... my personally, I don't believe in "final conclusion." Ymmv.

This phenomena can be seen in recent years with two of my favorite articles of women's clothing - the miniskirt and the tube top. The miniskirt came about in the late 60s, disappeared for the 70s, 80s, and reappeared in the late 90s (rough dates). The tube top appeared in... the late 70s? Went away for a couple decades, and now every once in awhile I see one.

I suppose if one dug, one could find someone in a miniskirt in the 70s or 80s, but if so it'll be a rarity.

And I'm sure you look lovely in them blackjohn.

[blackjohn]

I'm glad someone said that!!!

[Sir Beachem Quick]

Haha... my personally, I don't believe in "final conclusion."  Ymmv. 

This phenomena can be seen in recent years with two of my favorite articles of women's clothing - the miniskirt and the tube top.  The miniskirt came about in the late 60s, disappeared for the 70s, 80s, and reappeared in the late 90s (rough dates).  The tube top appeared in... the late 70s?  Went away for a couple decades, and now every once in awhile I see one.

   

I suppose if one dug, one could find someone in a miniskirt in the 70s or 80s, but if so it'll be a rarity.

And I'm sure you look lovely in them blackjohn.

[MadMike]

From the OED, a quote from 1706- "Slops, a wide sort of Breeches worn by Seamen".

Yours, Mike

[Francois]

Hi Kass,

I do understand what your point is and I wasnt trying to disspute that point. It seems as though you have done a great deal of reasearch and I do respect that. I would like to add I have a couple of your patterns but havt made the item yet. They do look very well done and I cant wait to get started.

So heres were I stand on the subject. Like you, I would like to see solid evidence of slops being used in this period. Although My knowledge is far below some people in the re-enactmet world I shoot to be as authentic as I can when portraing a period. As for wearing the slops during the GAoP I think I will contiue even if their not proven to exist. One reason is the 90 degree plus summer weather and the other is when I get the chance to go climbing aloft it is so much easier.

As for my personal oppinion I do belive they did exist but not well documented. It is also possible that the wide leg did not exsist as we know it. Some interpretations may make the slops look bigger or smaller based on the size of the person wearing them. To close some of the other theories that were listed earlier are also plossible. So I would say this myth hasn't been busted but it is inconclusive until more evidence shows up.

Francois

[MadMike]

Regarding the loose, skirt like slops seen being worn on GoF's page here-

http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/basic_kit.htm

The answer is "yes", they were most certainly worn during the "Golden Age of Piracy".

Please reference B. Picart's 1720 picture "Matelot de Brabant".

Yours, Mike

[Mick MacAnselan]

  The answer is "yes", they were most certainly worn during the "Golden Age of Piracy".

  Please reference B. Picart's 1720 picture "Matelot de Brabant". 

Mike, is this picture on line somewhere? Google comes up empty. TIA.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Yeah Mike... I'd like to see it too. If I am going to post it on my site and give you the credit you deserve, could you link us to it, or post it on your site.

I have searched and can't find it via google using the artists name, title in French or translated english title.

Greg aka GoF

[Patrick Hand]

Rats....rats...rats....

I was looking for something else, and found a picture by Hogarth "The Election: Charing the member"..... but it's 1754......

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/PRhogarth.htm

So it's out of period..... but look at the man (sailor) in the lower middle of the picture with the club and his back towards the viewer...... Slops and a short jacket.... funny red crowned cocked hat tho.........

[MadMike]

Patrick,

The 1720 picture of the sailor wearing slops is here-

https://pyracy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8163&st=0

Yours, Mike

[kass]

Now THAT's a picture of a sailor in the GAoP wearing slops!

Thank you for posting this, Mike. It certainly adds to the body of knowledge. And when I reprint my Breeches and Slops pattern, I will include this information in the historical notes. Thank you!

Of course one picture doesn't make them common or typical. But it is a depiction of what we modernly call "slops" in the years 1680 through 1730 and that's something I did not find in my searches.

Thanks again.

[Liam McMac]

my personal opinion would be that in early periods trousers were tighter fitting or often closed at the knee due to the fact that northern European climates tend to be quite cool. Given the fact that the columbian exchange opened the floodgates of trade to more tropical climates in the Americas... sailors adapted to the warmer climates by wearing looser fitting pants. This is why we see pirates of the later periods in both wide-legged 'slops' and knee breeches... one for warm... one for cold.

Perhaps

[Ivan Henry aka Moose]

I know I'm coming to this party late, and have just the tiniest bit of GAOP clothing info in my brain at this point, but I'm wondering what the Boecanier on the left in this 1700 illustration is wearing over his breeches. Slops? Petticoat breeches?

I'm also thinking about how different my Kass constructed slops look on my friend who is 5' 6" as compared to how they look on my 6' 3" frame.....

[gunner Gordon]

Rats....rats...rats....

I was looking for something else, and found a picture by Hogarth "The Election: Charing the member"..... but it's 1754......

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/PRhogarth.htm

So it's out of period..... but look at the man (sailor) in the lower middle of the picture with the club and his back towards the viewer...... Slops and a short jacket.... funny red crowned cocked hat tho.........

Yes, the hat is interesting, the turned up portions are white trimmed black, it appears the crown is red, or is it possible it us cut out for comfort and we are looking at his hair? Just a thought.

[Liam McMac]

I know I'm coming to this party late, and have just the tiniest bit of GAOP clothing info in my brain at this point, but I'm wondering what the Boecanier on the left in this 1700 illustration is wearing over his breeches. Slops? Petticoat breeches?

I'm also thinking about how different my Kass constructed slops look on my friend who is 5' 6" as compared to how they look on my 6' 3" frame.....

Well now... an example of sailors wearing slops over their breeches... hmmm

[Fox]

How positive are you that those aren't drawers?

[Cue rehash of the debate]

[Liam McMac]

The guy next to him seems to be wearin the same thing without something over them... is he standing around in his drawers?

hmmm

and that guy on the bottom left seems to be holding a chicken or is he choking the chicken??

so many possibilities

Like that guy who will live in a few centuries by the name of Einstien would say... "It's all relative."

Edited May 27, 2009 by Liam McMac

[Fox]

Clearly what's happening in that picture is the buccaneer is about to behead a man for offering him a bull's scrotum.

The trouble with the old what's-under-the-petticoat-breeches debate is that there's never usually much of the garment underneath visible - not enough to draw any conclusions. Yup, in that picture it looks like the same thing as the guy on the right is wearing, but with only that tiny triangle exposed drawers would look the same as breeches.

[Commodore Swab]

my personal opinion would be that in early periods trousers were tighter fitting or often closed at the knee due to the fact that northern European climates tend to be quite cool. Given the fact that the columbian exchange opened the floodgates of trade to more tropical climates in the Americas... sailors adapted to the warmer climates by wearing looser fitting pants. This is why we see pirates of the later periods in both wide-legged 'slops' and knee breeches... one for warm... one for cold.

Perhaps

Now in my mind makes alot of sense, I partucular think of a portuguese ship that was taken by pirates (provided inspiration for Long John Silver) in India and many of the crew joined the pirates. Later they passed on a pardon in Jamiaca in favor of one in a spanish town in what is now Panama. Having left from Portugal turned pirate in India and managed to make it to the Carribean I wish we had some idea of what they might of been wearing.

[Capt. Sterling]

I thought the buccaneers were down in the Caribbean where it is hot? And if we are looking at warmth, why then did the long trousers that sailors wore not catch on instead of knee breeches where the climate is colder? Knee breeches is really just a style from the time period... warmth seems only to dictate type of fabric chosen to make the garment... such as wool in the colder climates and linens in the warmer ones but still, in many cases, breeches...

[Cascabel]

Clearly what's happening in that picture is the buccaneer is about to behead a man for offering him a bull's scrotum.

Now THAT was funny !!!! Ya done good, Shipmate....

>>>> Cascabel

[Captain_MacNamara]

Where might I find a fairly easy pattern for early period slops/breeches? Being in the SCA, I go for early period as far as GAOP goes, but late to after period for SCA purposes, which is more than most SCA'ers around here do... Most of them go to wal-mart, find a pattern they like, and modify it to *look* somewhat "ren".