Musket accuracy?

[Gypsy Rose]

Ok I have been looking at the pirate weapon that were in popular use. It seems that more pirates used flint locks than swords. I did not think this as a good bording tool. But I have been reading that quite often pirates did not have to attack to take a ship. So my question is just how accurate was a flint lock pistol? What would have been the range that you used it at?

[Captain Bob]

IANAE*

From what I've read on the subject, modern pistols are accurate out to 10-15 yards in real firefight conditions, i.e.: somebody's shooting back at you. Adrenaline tends to throw your aim off. Plus most human beings (apart from sociopaths) are naturally reluctant to kill other humans under most circumstances. That's why modern police and military units afford their members as much practice as they can provide. Training offsets some of the natural decline in accuracy that results from putting your life in danger. If a pirate had plenty of practice with his weapon he would be fairly accurate within the limits of that weapon, especially if he was a sociopath with no qualms about killing.

I would guess that most (or at least many) of the pistols available to pirates were smooth-bored. Smooth-bored weapons are inherently less accurate than rifled weapons. All of my experience with black powder pistols was gained with reproduction Colt's revolvers. These were rifled, and although they consistently shot low, I could reliably put a ball onto a torso-sized target at ten yards. Beyond 15 yards, I had to aim high to even reach the target's range. To hit a man-sized target at 100 yards I would have had to aim as if I were firing a mortar. (35 grains of powder behind a .45 caliber ball can do only so much.) Beyond about 50 yards, you'd have to rely more upon divine providence than skill. Mind, if I was shooting at a tightly-packed mass of people on a nearby ship, all I'd really need to do was drop a shot among the crowd and hope it hit someone. Smoothbore pistols might have less inherent accuracy than rifled pistols, but they are significantly more effective than thrown rocks and are far more intimidating, especially if you convince your opponent that you are a psychopath.

~~Cap'n Bob

* I Am Not An Expert

[blackjohn]

Ok I have been looking at the pirate weapon that were in popular use. It seems that more pirates used flint locks than swords. I did not think this as a good bording tool. But I have been reading that quite often pirates did not have to attack to take a ship. So my question is just how accurate was a flint lock pistol? What would have been the range that you used it at?

Too many variables... some people are very good shots... some weapons are piss-poor quality... some powder burns unevenly... flints get worn down... and so on.

Fwiw, I've seen a guy with a musket fire into a man-sized target and get a really tight grouping of head shots at 50 yards while loading at a really fast pace.

I've seen a guy hit repeatedly with a kit-built rifled pistol at a range of about... 30 yeards? However, almost every shot was preceded by some sort of misfire...

[Gypsy Rose]

As a pirate which would you rather relie on, Muskets, pistols, swords or others?

[blackjohn]

My brain... if I have to pull a weapon I've done something drastically wrong.

Assuming I've done something wrong... my first choice would be long-range cannon fire... followed by short-range cannon fire... followed by swivelgun... then musket... blunderbuss... three brace of pistols... ok, now it's getting personal... anyone have a boarding ax/pistol combo handy???

My point... choose the proper tool for the job.

My job... to end hostilities as quickly as possible. If I can end a battle by having my musicians play loud tunes, you can bet that's what I'm going to do!

[Patrick Hand]

Cannons are nice, they shoot BIG holes in things.....

But I like a musket.... reach out and touch somebody...... espessialy any officers or anyone in charge on the other ship....

With pre-rolled cartridges I can load really quickly.... smoothbore loads quick, there is a lack of accuracy, but rifles are too new for period, and take way to long to re-load.

Having a pistol as back-up if someone gets too close, and a cutlass/boarding axe/knife/plug bayonet only for last resort.....

[Monterey Jack]

Ok I have been looking at the pirate weapon that were in popular use. It seems that more pirates used flint locks than swords. I did not think this as a good bording tool. But I have been reading that quite often pirates did not have to attack to take a ship. So my question is just how accurate was a flint lock pistol? What would have been the range that you used it at?

Not sure about pirates boarding (so far as documentation by the pirates themselves) but Lt Wm Pringle Green of HMS Resolute (1811) recommended hanging onto the pistol until you'd boarded, not using it to actually board, because it takes too long to change from pistol to cutlass once you've fired the thing. He states getting aboard with cutlass as primary weapon, then firing only at really close range with the left hand and using the empty pistol as a parrying weapon while continuing to fight with cutlass.

[Captain Jim]

Blackjohn has it about right, ending the battle soon so as not to damage the goods, etc. Failing that the weapon order is also good. One thing that most forget when carrying a lot of pistols in that you can also throw the empties at your adversary. For instance: I fire my last pistol and my opposite draws a fresh one; I throw the empty at his head; he ducks and I close the distance and take him with a cutlass draw-stroke. Might not work but it beats just standing there. Of course another ploy is to duck behind one of yer own shipmates...

[kass]

Throw a perfectly good pistol!?!?!?!?! Why not grab the business end and clock him with the handle. That's why they make them brass.

[Dorian Lasseter]

Aye Kass,

Both were done...

A smoothbore pistol of say, 50 calibre was accurate in capable hands to about 5-7 yards...

Muskets are goode, in capable hands, to 60-100 yards.......

That's my knowledge, but your accuracy may vary...

[Monterey Jack]

Throw a perfectly good pistol!?!?!?!?! Why not grab the business end and clock him with the handle. That's why they make them brass.

Exactly; it has too many uses empty to toss it aside, IMO.

[Captain Jim]

Remember, in the example my opposite still had a loaded pistol and distance. Hanging on to an empty in that case would leave me standing there hoping for a misfire. But lets say I have several pistols left. Why simply drop an empty when it can be a 3 pound irregularly shaped fastball? Yes, keep the last for parry work when that is the best use, otherwise do what you can.

Where did this thread begin? Gone astray again...

[HarborMaster]

For boarding I would have to say cannon fire as well., however Not Big Holes., but rather "Grapeshot"., as a pirate I would not want tosink my prize...., their ship., nor its contents., and of course if we killed everyone.,we wouldnt learn nuthin.

Also a flinter is such a much slower moving projectile compared to todays weapons.

I would like to just touch on that for a moment. If you were to take say a watermelon and shoot it with a 357 (Sounds devistating doesnt it) or on the other hand shoot it with a .50 caliber or better flinter (take the .62 calliber sea service) which would be more devistating ? I would argue to no end given a standard lead projectile.,not a hollow point or some other modern trick., the Flinter is devistatingly more damaging.

The slower velocity would not go thru the victim., but rather enter his body pick him up off the ground and lay him on his back. WHAMM ! like getting hit with a bus. With practice a flinter is fairly accurate., especially the smally calibers., the queen anne is a great choice.

There are stories of people taking many hits today....., but not many took more than one flinter hit and were able to still stand., it just didnt happen., Blackbeards taken it was a fluke., and he made history.

My choice for a boarding pistol., simple., a brace of .62's all loaded with grape ! (Grape is easier to hit something ) a volley pistol triple .32's and then a cutlass and a steel war hammer used in the left hand for trapping spiking and ripping. :)

[JoshuaRed]

Me, I'd choose to be up on the quarterdeck with Black John, shouting horrible songs and swearing blue fire and hope that did the trick. Failing that and the 6 pounders, I'd board with the nastiest boarding axe I could find. Those things are so user-friendly, and there's not many things scarier than a crazy man with an axe lunging at you! Assuming the first shot didn't get me, I could get a whole lotta manic swinging in like Happy Gilmore with a golf club before the enemy could reload/aim.

The axe has it all - good climbing aid, good offensive/defensive weapon. Lightweight too.

[Coastie04]

I'd go with a brace of pistols and a cutlass. For anyone, I would suggest one or more firearms, and some sort of melee weapon (sword, boarding axe, belaying pin, bagpipes). With my Sea Service Pistol (1750 style), I can hit a torso-sized target at 15-20 yds almost all the time. However, in combat, I would probably stick to around 5-10 yds because 1) the target's moving, 2) I'd have more adrenalyn, and 3) I probably wouldn't worry too much about enemies farther than 10 yds from me if there was anyone close by. The cannons/swivel guns would be pre-boarding equipment to either kill crew (grape shot) or disable/slow down the vessel (chain shot). If I were outmatched or being chased, I wouldn't hesitate to break out the solid shot. However, a fast and maneuverable ship could be a weapon: rake her stern so that what cannon shots you put into the ship do more damage. Really, it all depends on the situation. If it were pouring down rain, I probably wouldn't bother with the pistols. If the prize was better armed with cannon, I might use more round shot and go for their gun deck. There are so many variables that it's hard to say 'this is what I'd use'. Then again, it also depends on what's available. If some ship snuck up at night and boarded us, I'd grab the nearest belaying pin or marlin spike.

Coastie

[Gypsy Rose]

Ok so what I am understanding is that pistols were good for about the beam of a good sized ship. Or two smaller ships lashed together. That was more than I thought. And during combat you all would not hessitate to use it across the beam of even a small sloop. Now I agree that the pistols would do more damage than todays weapons. My dad used to hunt with black powder and you should have seen the blood trails that caused. So if it came down to fighting the pistol did have an effective place. But it also only had one effective shot during boarding if needed. So as I see it you get two well placed shots during combat and then useing your sword. How does everybody agree or disagree with that.

[Captain Jim]

Perhaps you could get off more than two shots, but you won't be reloading during the battle, as most fights don't last that long. So you carry as many pistols as you feel comfortable with or can find. Also, "distance" in a fight can change. Example: you clamber aboard the ship, fire a pistol at the onrushing crew and then they are upon you, hand and sword. You dispatch your opposite and more room, distance opens up and another pistol shot is called for at someone further away. Of course you can always fire away at point-blank range: hard to miss that way.

However, carrying too many pistols might be a bad thing. At close killing range, the pistol in your belt is handy to your opponent as well. And the opposite is also true: don't neglect to borrow your opponent's belt knife or axe or gun if it comes to hand.

[The Doctor]

Anyone have recommendations for good books on this subject? I could certainly use a few! :)

[hitman]

For my money I'd like a blunderbus and a good boarding axe closest thing to a mossberg 835 and a K-bar

As to books I'd quess boarders away although I haen't yet got my hands on a copy it does seem to come highly recommended

[Gypsy Rose]

I have been looking at the Blunderbuss and I like it alot. The axe is also my favorite weapon. From experence it is so good for so many things that I am puzzeled that it wasn't more used. The only set back is that it would get stuck in your opponent more than a sword. A sword slices nicer but a axe cleaves its way into an opponent.

[Story]

A fun video, period reenactor dealing with a misfire

[JohnnyTarr]

Imangine that during a battle.

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

"musket accuracy"= Take into consideration these things: contract military arms had NO sights, due to the necessity of attaching a bayonet.(on long-arms); it was considered an act of murder to actually aim at an individual, but if some-one was killed in volley fire, it was the consequences of warfare. most soldiers were not really good shots anyway, and many actually turned away when pulling the trigger, or at least shut their eyes.

Now, from the other view: forget the bayonet, solder on a front bead and turn the tang screw so the slot runs along the plane of the barrel. Guess what? You have a whole new critter in your hands, and pirates or any non-military privateers were not concerned with rules of civility in warfare. I have several freinds that can out-shoot most riflemen with their smothie flinters. Me... well... I'm only slighter better than average on a good day to be honest.

Point is, muskets and pistols can be very effective in the hands of an accomplished shooter. It takes time and practice, but the men of that time were not so encumbered with busy lives as we today are.

[blackjohn]

contract military arms had NO sights, due to the necessity of attaching a bayonet.(on long-arms)

Maybe true for British arms... the picture of the Spanish martial escopeta I have here in front of me, from our period, has a sight. The author goes on to say, "in Spanish martial firearms the front sight (punto) continued to be mounted on the barrel."

If I'm not mistaken, French muskets had a sight mounted on the barrel band.

Point is, muskets and pistols can be very effective in the hands of an accomplished shooter.  It takes time and practice, but the men of that time were not so encumbered with busy lives as we today are.

Very true. Back in the day, there was a guy at the Fort Frederick Firelock Match that would hit 10 for 10 headshots with his Charleville at... 50? 100? yards. Freakin' amazing!

[JoshuaRed]

Bother! That is THE. BEST. AVATAR. EVER, John. Hands down, you win. When I loaded the page, Sir Topham Hatt was the last thing I expected to see - had me laughing out loud! Black John, you deserve a newww coat of paint. Well done sir!

(Sorry for going OT. Tried to PM ya but your box was full.)