carolina pyrate Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 were should the backing fall on a 1750s style waist coat? I know earlier styles were longer and that later styles the back was the same lenghth as the front but for example on the movie Pirates of the Caribbean and the recent Black beard Documentery I've noticed the back being shorter than the front is this correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matty Bottles Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 From what I understand (from the advice and commentary of those on this very site) that was not uncommon. They were generally used for riding and other activities. "The time was when ships passing one another at sea backed their topsails and had a 'gam,' and on parting fired guns; but those good old days have gone. People have hardly time nowadays to speak even on the broad ocean, where news is news, and as for a salute of guns, they cannot afford the powder. There are no poetry-enshrined freighters on the sea now; it is a prosy life when we have no time to bid one another good morning." - Capt. Joshua Slocum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 That's very true; the backs were much shorter than the fronts, due to the fact that much of the apparel of the age was geared toward the most common form of personal travel: horses. To wit (or should I say, "for sooth"?)... I'll be riding my half-Arabian in competition next weekend wearing a "puffy shirt" and waistcoat. "The front of the waistcoat should lay over to the outside of the the thighs of the wearer; the back should be equal with the waist." OK, so I'm the Phillipe Candeloro of the Arabian reining world. They still have to outride me, and get a better score. :) Yo ho ho! Or does nobody actually say that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 Can't speak for 1750s (not really my period), but at least up until the 1730s waistcoats were often made with long backs too. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Lasseter Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 Another thing to consider as well is the material they are made of... I have had a handful of them that the front is wool or silk, while the back is linen... if you were wearing a coat over the waistcoat, you wouldn't see the back. So, the backs could be either the same length as the front or they could be shorter... Check out some of the sutler sites that cater to French & Indian War reenactors... Truly, D. Lasseter Captain, The Lucy Propria Virtute Audax --- In Hoc Signo Vinces Ni Feidir An Dubh A Chur Ina Bhan Air "If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me." Deuteronomy 32:41 Envy and its evil twin - It crept in bed with slander - Idiots they gave advice - But Sloth it gave no answer - Anger kills the human soul - With butter tales of Lust - While Pavlov's Dogs keep chewin' - On the legs they never trust... The Seven Deadly Sins http://www.colonialnavy.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolina pyrate Posted May 11, 2006 Author Share Posted May 11, 2006 You guys answered my question when i refered to a 1750s style waistcoat I meant early waistcoats in general 1720s, 1730s styles etc as far as backing goes would muslin be correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 Carolina, Muslin isn't a very durable fabric. 5oz linen is a better choice. Also I've been looking through my sources showing extant waistcoats from 1700 through the 1770s and the vast VAST majority of them have backs as long as the fronts. Some do, as Dorian mentioned, have backs of plain linen while the fronts are silk and embroidered. But there is no length difference. This is not to say that backs weren't sometimes shorter than the fronts, just that the usual form of waistcoat was with the back the same length as the front. They're all split at center back so no problems riding a horse! Kass Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Bo of the WTF co. Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 As far as I can remember, the only weskits with short tails I've ever seen at re-enactments are on Cavalry or Mounted Officers uniforms. I haven't or don't recall seeing any in the civilian impressions. However the outer coats are still long-tailed with the exception of the mid 18th century and later Dragoons and Rangers, who went with the short tails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted May 15, 2006 Share Posted May 15, 2006 Also I've been looking through my sources showing extant waistcoats from 1700 through the 1770s and the vast VAST majority of them have backs as long as the fronts. Some do, as Dorian mentioned, have backs of plain linen while the fronts are silk and embroidered. But there is no length difference.This is not to say that backs weren't sometimes shorter than the fronts, just that the usual form of waistcoat was with the back the same length as the front. They're all split at center back so no problems riding a horse! Kass Oh good Kass, I was hoping you would jump on this as well. I have never come across any period patterns nor original waistcoats where the backs were shorter than the fronts. I am almost beginning to wonder if this is some 19th century fancy dress ideal or "hollywood" inspired. Does anyone have any hard documentation on a short backed waistcoat style which was common? have researched cavalry for years, I have not come across any uniform with waistcoat, where the backs were shorter. .... I would LOVE to see some originals that hadn't been altered by later generations.... Hector "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted May 15, 2006 Share Posted May 15, 2006 Yeah, Hector, I can't say as I've ever seen one that was "real". The only ones I can think of right now are the ones I've seen on reenactors. Waistcoats with different fabric backs, yes. But not with shorter backs. It doesn't make too much sense in practice, really, since a shorter back leaves your lower back exposed. That's not usually a desireable situation, even with a frock coat covering it. I will continue the search, however. As luck would have it, I'm writing up the historical notes for the 1700s-1720s waistcoat pattern as we speak. Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Bo of the WTF co. Posted May 15, 2006 Share Posted May 15, 2006 To add a bit to my earlier post, the only documentation I've ever seen has to do with Rodgers Rangers in the F&I war cutting the tails of their issue coats so as not to snag on the brush in the forests as easily. The other Kings Rangers units followed suit by doing the same for the same reasons. They were not designed that way until late in the war and then later thru the revolution, but none had shorter tails in back to my knowledge of this time period. I did see the waistcoat in the Last of the Mohicans on Major Hayward. HIS was like that, and there was a great deal of costume research done for this movie. That said... it's still Hollywood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matty Bottles Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 I thought that "Paris Street Cries" by Bouchardon would have some goodies for me, but actually, the only thing that could be possibly a waistcoat shortened in the back* is Fig. 211 the Knife Grinder, and I can't even tell if he IS wearing a waistcoat, because his apron thingy gets in the way. But I can't figure out what it is. If it is a waistcoat, it is shorter in the back than the waistcoat visible in Fig. 221, if the coat in Fig. 221 is indeed a waistcoat and not a regular over coat. I'm not sure of that either. And this is still, what, twenty years out of period, ~1740? I'm more confused then when I began. *And if it IS a shortened waistcoat, it's not THAT short, since it still well covers the guy's rear. I need a beer. Hey, I'm a poet, and I don't even know - screw that, I need a beer. "The time was when ships passing one another at sea backed their topsails and had a 'gam,' and on parting fired guns; but those good old days have gone. People have hardly time nowadays to speak even on the broad ocean, where news is news, and as for a salute of guns, they cannot afford the powder. There are no poetry-enshrined freighters on the sea now; it is a prosy life when we have no time to bid one another good morning." - Capt. Joshua Slocum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 Here, Jack, let me pour one for you. You're making my head hurt! Yes, Bo, I hear wat you're saying. I just wonder if they were ever produced that way, and not just cut afterwards. Although I have to admit that cutting the tails off the back of your waistcoats wouldn't really change how often you got snagged on brush. You'd still get snagged in the front. And were these guys really running around without coats on? Having a coat on would negate the whole thing entirely. Backt o what I said originally -- the VAST majority of waistcoats had tails in back as long as the tails in front. I'd err on that side of things if I were you, Carolina (if you're still listening ). Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjohn Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 I'm still on the lookout and have yet to find a period waistcoat cut short in back and long in front. Doesn't mean they didn't exist... but I have yet to find pictorial evidence. I'll have to dig out my photos from an exhibit that I saw at Williamsburg. Most of the clothing was post-GAP, but hey, what the heck... My Home on the Web The Pirate Brethren Gallery Dreams are the glue that holds reality together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saiolorgirl Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 How magnificant... a place to discuss garb... I love this site already! Regina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjohn Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 How magnificant... a place to discuss garb... I love this site already! Regina You call it garb... I call 'em clothes. My Home on the Web The Pirate Brethren Gallery Dreams are the glue that holds reality together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted May 16, 2006 Share Posted May 16, 2006 Welcome, welcome, Regina! We sure do talk a lot about what we wear here in Captain Twill, whether you call it "garb" or "clothes" or "kit" or any of a million other synonyms. Hey Hawkyns! I used a big word! Do I get a cracker? Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saiolorgirl Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 I have been trained be the "norms" as well as by my faire friends to call it garb. Personally, I would be in heaven to be able to wear historically inspired clothing daily. But alas, I can not afford it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Hand Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 We've discussed .... Garb/Clothing/Kit before, basicaly, it's shows where you first got into reenacting........ I started through the SCA (looooong time ago), so I'm more comfortable calling it Garb...... but it's still the same stuff if you think about it...... But alas, I can not afford it... Being a "Bad Patt Pyrate".......... Sure you can...... period clothing (Garb) dosen't cost any more than what you buy at the Mall, and (sorry Kass).... Aaaagth... it be so mush more stylish like.... it be..... OK.... back on topic..... I think I've seen a drawing showing the shorter backed waistcoat, but I can't remember if it was from a latter period, or where I saw it.... (yah... some help) Dang... one of those things like an itch between your shoulders that you can't quite reach...... because, I can't remember where I saw it........... and it will just keep bothering me untill I can find it again..... period or not.... now I gotta find it........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 Sailorgirl, I assume by your handle that you're a girl, correct? Did you know that you may already be wearing "period garb"? The other day my apprentice walked into my house wearing a jacket she got at the mall. It was the exact same cut as a 17th century woman's jacket! I find women's shoes that are shocking similar to shoe styles in period. It's all over the place if you look! Pat, buy a pattern and you may live... Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMike Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 I've saved hundreds of dollars hand sewing my own clothing- sailor's slops, a 1700's era coat, waistcoat, etc. Granted, it took a long time but the experience was worth it. Yours, &c. Mike Try these for starters- "A General History of the Pyrates" edited by Manuel Schonhorn, "Captured by Pirates" by John Richard Stephens, and "The Buccaneers of America" by Alexander Exquemelin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saiolorgirl Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 Yes, I am a girl as the name suggests, (it's be pretty damn funny if I wasn't though). For the most part the problem is that I can't afford clothes, and don't have the room for them aboard. (We're a single income family.) But I do have some, every Year I try to make myself one new historical/historically inspired outfit. But what I want is a 18th century gown. I like every dressed up clothes, (through woman used to wear them as everyday clothes). I just need to invest more in my wardrobe when we get the big boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 I was reading this morning (damned if I can remember the site, I'll dig through my browser's history later) that short-backed waistcoats were fashionable, but not necessarily common, prior to the French and Indian War. I can see how the design would be heavily favored by equestrians. It eliminates the need for a slit in the back for sitting a saddle. Besides, you end up sitting on the tails half the time anyway if you do any posting. :) Yo ho ho! Or does nobody actually say that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjohn Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 For the most part the problem is that I can't afford clothes, and don't have the room for them aboard. (We're a single income family.) But I do have some, every Year I try to make myself one new historical/historically inspired outfit. But what I want is a 18th century gown. I like every dressed up clothes, (through woman used to wear them as everyday clothes). Not affording them... hey... start small and work from there... and if you start with historically accurate stuff it is much easier to farb yourself out for fun later than vice versa... but bloody hell... if you make one new thing per year you've got me beat by a long sea mile!!! My Home on the Web The Pirate Brethren Gallery Dreams are the glue that holds reality together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 Sailorgirl, take a look at "Elegantly Frugal Costumes" by Shirley Dearing. :) Yo ho ho! Or does nobody actually say that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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