Leather Justacorps???

[Monterey Jack]

Okay, I'm probably going to make it anyway, cuz I want one and I only work in leather, but what are the historical justifications for a light, buff leather justacorps? I started out making a simple civilian early 1700s coat, but saw the pattern offered by Reconstructing History, with the enormous cuffs.....and I may just go that way.

I've made three full-length theatrical pirate coats already6 out of leather, but I'm thinking of going more "proper" with the construction of this one.

Thoughts?

[Capt. Sterling]

Okay, I'm probably going to make it anyway, cuz I want one and I only work in leather, but what are the historical justifications for a light, buff leather justacorps? I started out making a simple civilian early 1700s coat, but saw the pattern offered by Reconstructing History, with the enormous cuffs.....and I may just go that way.

I've made three full-length theatrical pirate coats already6 out of leather, but I'm thinking of going more "proper" with the construction of this one.

Thoughts?

Yes there is a splendid coat circa 1680 made of doeskin and embroidered. Using Kass's splendid pattern you might want to take out just a bit of the pleat as the original is referred to as fairly narrow, but there is still some pleat. It has the vertical pockets BUT the cuffs are quiet narrow. I even wonder if they are true cuffs in the sense at all or if the emboidery on the coat sleeve just looks like a cuff. Unfortunately, I cannot seem to be able to post pictures on this site. I keep getting errors and no one has gotten back to me as of yet addressing the problem, but if you can get your hands on a copy of Exploring Costume History 1500-1900 by Valerie Cumming there is a black and white photo on page 40 of the coat. You could also contact the Museum of London and ask about it as it belongs to their collection. Hope that helps somewhat.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Actually, your request is not as bizarre as its sounds. Its pretty close though!

Here is a picture of one that is Dated 1700.

Its from the book A History of Costume by Carl Kohler.

Unfortunately, he doesn't offer much more info than the photo's description which dates it and says its made of Elk Skin. I don't think its the one Cpn Sterling mentioned as there is no embroidery or embelishment of any kind.

That would make two refrences...

I am not sure what the application would be for this coat, as its not fancy, I would find it hard to believe that it was "fashionable", probably more utilitarian for riding...

But, as you said, you are going to do it anyway... so at least we can document it (see, we are not as hard assed as everyone believes!)

It would be great for a Highwayman impression. With the right bucket boots, it could look cool.

GoF

[Tall Paul]

What you have there GOF is a Buff Coat, Very Common during the English Civil War. I am however surprised to see one attributed to a date as late as the 1700's.

It is however possible that the garment may have survived in some of the extremities of the Bavarian/Germanic Empire until this time.

The Buff Coat was in effect a suit of leather armour, made from thick buff leather (a quarter of an inch or more thick) and had what would now be regarded as a suede finish.

Over the years I have seen quite a number of these in various English stately houses. and I have also worn an accurate reproduction of one. they are very heavy, and very stiff and the one that I wore could be stood upright in a corner unsupported.

I think that some further research is in order before this Coat should be authenticated for the early eighteenth Century.

Kohler's A History of Costume is a very useful book, especially as many of the costumes illustrated in it were destroyed during the war. But it is also now a very old book, and some of the information contained in it has since been superseded by more recent research. It is also possible that 1700's is a mistranslation of 17th Century. I do not have my copy of A History of Costume available at the moment, but I seem to remember the same error occurring elsewhere in the book.

Unfortunately, most of my books are still boxed up, awaiting the installation of new shelves, so I am not in a position to do any detailed research into the matter at this time. However, there are a number of surviving embroidered, soft leather (Suede out) waistcoats from the mid to late 17th Century I can see no real problems with making an outer coat, but it would be a high status garment, probably elaborately decorated or embroidered.

Although the leather (Grain out) justacorps is a fairly popular feature in film costuming, I cannot recall ever seeing one in an eighteenth Century historical context. But since Will Turner (Orlando Bloom) is wearing one in the next Pirates of the Caribbean movie, I have no doubt that there will be a sudden glut of them at pirate re-enactments.

"Tall Paul" Adams

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Yes... but

I see what your saying. The one above though seem more "justaucorps" like than "buff coat" like... the turn back cuffs are unusual for a ECW buff coat.. no?.

So, its pretty long, has turnback cuffs, and is at least attributed to 1700 (until we find out otherwise?)

Here are some other buff coats...

As I said in the above post... I don't believe it to be a "fashionable" justaucorps, but more of a utilitarian garment. So, its probably a riding coat of some sort. Still, it shape is close to that of a justaucorp of the GAoP period.

I am not ready to dismiss Kohler just yet.

But if someone IS going to make one out of leather.... here is an example to go by.

Paul... did you go to TORM? What is up with the UKpirate yahoo group?

GOF

[greenighs]

I think for it to be truly authentic, you should make it from the skins of your enemies.

[Monterey Jack]

This is great, guys; thanks!

GoF, that first one you posted gives a great example of what the turnback cuffs look like when unrolled; just what I needed. I keep seeing huge cuffs that are closed, and then some that are split. I believe its the split ones I'll go for. Has anyone seemt eh movie Plunkett and Macleane? that's what got me going on the justacorps. Theirs are just seriously nasty though.....being highwaymen and all. Mine will be of lightweight cowhide in a buff color with the "roughout" look. The cuffs and lapels will be the aged /braintanned deerhide. Haven't decided on brass or pewter for the buttons, though. I think brass would look better; probably 1" or larger.

I've built two buff coats before, so this should be a breeze. I'll try and figure out how to get pix of it up here when its done; roughly a month from now. I doubt mine will have any of the fancy trim and certainly won't be representative of any degree of status, but I'm certainly looking forward to showing up at a few muzzleloading events in it!

Nice to know it has some degree of historical backing; I like top be able to have something for the textbookies out there.

Thanks again!

[Monterey Jack]

Well, shoot........

Just looked at the shots of Plunkett and Macleane again and I may have to add the brocade. Damn.

Anyone know of a source for good brocade of the period? I'm way out of my element when it comes to this.

[Capt. Sterling]

I don't think its the one Cpn Sterling mentioned as there is no embroidery or embelishment of any kind.

That would make two refrences...

I am not sure what the application would be for this coat, as its not fancy, I would find it hard to believe that it was "fashionable", probably more utilitarian for riding...

Oh forgot about this one and this has the big cuffs as well. By the way split cuffs along the botton seem were common as well as closed up until the 1730-40s I believe. Hey guys how do you post pictures on this site? I'm have the darnest time of it. I could scan the 1680s coat and post it if someone would explain the posting proceedure... can't even get a picture to take for the member's personal page... I'm sure I'm missing something... DUH!

Any way back to leather coats.... I can't say much about the earlier 18th century but later on in the 18th century leather coats became some what popular for hunting attire.... I honestly can't say how well a leather coat would do in sea water or sea air for that matter.....

Hector

[Capt. Sterling]

Well, shoot........

Just looked at the shots of Plunkett and Macleane again and I may have to add the brocade. Damn.

Anyone know of a source for good brocade of the period? I'm way out of my element when it comes to this.

Yikes Plunkett and McCleane, interesting story but very much a mixture of modern ideals where clothing is concerned. If you truly want to do a highwayman impression stick with typical pirate gear just replace the slops with breeches and you can wear boots, or gaiters, but by the end of the 17th century turn into 18th century, bucket tops were pretty much reserved for the military and pretty darn heavy and stiff, just too awkward if you had to make a dash on foot if your horse took a ball. I'd opt for a more slender cuff on top of a much softer riding boot.... just a thought.... OH and a little birdie mentioned there JUST MIGHT be a proper greatcoat pattern coming out in the future sometime.... as for silk brocades, I read of a highwayman who robbed a lord of his coat. The coat was very fancy, highly decorated and later identified because the highwayman insisted on wearing it.... he was arrested. But if you do want to do such finery try googling silk brocades or embroidered silk fabric. I have only found really nice samples at the better fabric shops, not places like Joann's. As these shops are individually owned, I, unfortunately can't say "oh try such and such in your neighborhood!"

Hector

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

Just a thought, but if you think on the boucanier angle, you hunted wild cattle and hogs in between acts of pyracy, and it was more than likeley necessary to manufacture replacement togs from the available material. coupled with the probability that trading ventures with ships for cloth were few and far between, I'd say you have good grounds to base the use of leather for your justacorps. Just me 'umble opinion.

Capt. Bo

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Hmmmm....

The problem with that is... the few pictures that we have of period buccaneers, they seem to be wearing less clothing, rather than more. I can't imagine wearing a wool justaucorps in the caribbean, let alone a leather one.

My two cents?

I would make it as close to the original example or one of the buff coats as possible. That way, you have documentation, and if you ever want to sell it, you would have a wider audience to buy it.

Good luck all the same

GoF

[Tall Paul]

Here is a picture of one that is Dated 1700.

Its from the book A History of Costume by Carl Kohler.

I showed the above picture to a friend of mine who used to be a curator at the Tower of London Armouries.

To my surprise, I learned that the buff coat, in a military context, survived until the very end of the 17th century, (although dating it beyond the first few years of the 18th Century is probably pushing it.)

The coat pictured is certainly not English in origin, (Hardly a surprise since A History of Costume was originally published in Germany, and uses many pictures from German collections.)

I would make it as close to the original example or one of the buff coats as possible. That way, you have documentation, and if you ever want to sell it, you would have a wider audience to buy it.

The sleeves were probably a late addition to a sleeveless mid 17th Century buff coat, so this is probably good advice. would it be a good idea to make the sleeves removable? There is provenance for this in the English Civil War period, and you would get the best of both worlds.

I am not ready to dismiss Kohler just yet.

Nor am I.

I think that Kohler's book is a very useful work on the subject of historical costume, I refer to it a lot. However years of experience has taught me that just because it is in a book does not make it true.

Given the relative age of this publication, and the fact that much new research has been published since the first release of the English edition in 1928, means that whilst it is an invaluable starting point for research, it never hurts to confirm the information with other sources if possible. This is true of any research from secondary sources, not just this book.

Just a thought, but if you think on the boucanier angle, you hunted wild cattle and hogs in between acts of pyracy, and it was more than likeley necessary to manufacture replacement togs from the available material.

The "If they had cows they must have had leather" argument is used a lot in re-enactment.

unfortunately, this overlooks the fact that tanning (as opposed to curing) is a complex process that usually requires the resources of a small town at the least. the tanning process requires the use of lined pits in which the hides are soaked in a variety of chemical solutions which would not necessarily available to Buccaneers. For example, there were people who made a living scouring the streets of cities collecting dog excrement to service the requirements of the tanneries. (apparently the droppings of carnivores, ie, dogs was vastly superior to that of livestock, for this purpose.)

Buckskinners used a process called brain-tanning, which they probably learned from Native Americans, but which id common to many "primitive" societies across the world, to produce the soft, hardwearing buckskin leather. whilst the ingredients and processes of brain-tanning are less elaborate than those of conventional tanning, it is a very labour intensive process requiring specialised equipment.

Once more, without my copy of the book handy, I cannot check, (although I am sure that if I am wrong someone will correct me)

but from what I can remember from the last time I read Esquemelling's Buccaneers of America, he goes into quite a bit of detail about the lifestyle of the buccaneers, how they hunted, the preparation of the bouccan, how they spent their leisure time. But I do not remember any reference to Tanning leather. I would've expected such a time consuming process to have been worthy of a mention if they had done so.

Also, Brain-tanning produces a soft, suede type of leather not unlike chamey leather, not a grain out leather like that used in modern clothing.

If Buccaneers made use of the cow and pig hides that would have been a by product of the bacon making process, I think that it is most likely that they would have simply cured the skins, probably using the relatively simple process of salt curing or possibly brine curing, (plenty of sea water available). Then used the skins for trade.

probability that trading ventures with ships for cloth were few and far between

I may have missed the point, but I was always under the impression, that the reason that the Buccaneers were out there, making all of that smoked meat, was to produce a commodity for trade. Again, I cannot check, but I am pretty sure that Esquamelling mentions this.

Paul... did you go to TORM? What is up with the UKpirate yahoo group?

Due to cash flow problems at the moment, I decided not to go to The Original Reenactors Market this year. sorry that I missed you.

As for the UKPirateBrotherhood group, it is still there, but unless there is a show in preparation, it is a group of 150 lurkers. I occasionally try to get a thread going, but without too much success so far.

What's a guy to do

I think that's enough to be going on with.

"Tall Paul" Adams

[Monterey Jack]

Hmmmm....

The problem with that is... the few pictures that we have of period buccaneers, they seem to be wearing less clothing, rather than more. I can't imagine wearing a wool justaucorps in the caribbean, let alone a leather one.

My two cents?

I would make it as close to the original example or one of the buff coats as possible. That way, you have documentation, and if you ever want to sell it, you would have a wider audience to buy it.

Good luck all the same

GoF

You're absolutely right IMO about less clothing rather than more. I doubt any Traditional Buccaneer would be wearing this puppy out in the logwood forests of Central America in July. It wasn't where I intended to go costume-wise but its too good not to have...and since I have the materials at hand....

I suppose, though (and this is a broaaaaaad stretch of re enactment philosophy) that since the buccs were known to have traveled from the Caribbean as far north as Nova Scotia this thing might come in handy for buccs in the Northern climes.

I know Plunkett and Macleane is a far fetch from reality, and I'm still debating the brocade. Your comment about staying as close to the original as possible makes good sense, not only from a re-sell standpoint, but if I show up at an event where historical is the rule rather than the exception I'll be just dandy....or...wait...not dandy...no brocade....hell, you get the idea.

The braintan deer on the lapels and cuffs is, unfortunately, the commercial BT stuff, half the cost and a really rich look. I did read a bit in Dampier about them hunting deer on one of the islands, so I figure mixing cow and deer hide on one coat won't be out of the question. Not sure if I'll make the sleeves detachable, but I might do so with the huge cuffs in case I want to change appearances.

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

In regards to the wearing of wool in the Carribean, it was and is shown in the watercolor paintings of the boucaniers I've mentioned before in the Time Life book on Pirates. While the writings in this book can pretty well be thrown to the garbage, the period illustrations cannot be denied. further, I have been at sea in the mid Atlantic and beleive me when I say there are plenty of times when a coat comes in very handy, even essential. When a body is conditioned to temperatures in the 80-90+ degree range, and the wind blows in a cold front that drops the temp. into the 60s during daylight and into the lower 40s at night, you WILL wear a coat or wish you had one.

As far as the process of tanning being long and laborious, well of course it was, but what else was there to do with your time? Perhaps they joined a bowling league or spent the day on the golf course? Yes, the reason they were hunting and curing meat and hides was to trade with the passing ships, but do you suppose that every buccaneer was successful? That would be like saying everyone that went to the California gold fields in 1849 struck it rich. Neccessity is the mother of all invention, as I'm sure we all know. The reason these men took up the life of the buccaneer in the first place was to leave behind the economic recession and social repression of their homelands.

Take into consideration the literacy rate of the buccaneers. How many actually wrote anything down? What are there, maybe a half dozen authentic writings of the times in question? That would be roughly one in one thousand.( just a guess ) Even these accounts vary a great deal, and none of them covers everything .

The fact is that human nature is such that in order to evolve, we must learn to improvise and invent in order to advance, and someone at some point must take the first step forward,or we wouldn't be communicating via internet today. I am a fierce individualist, and a carbon copy of no-one, and I'm confident that many of these men were the same, or they would have stayed home.

I will try to access the paintings I have mentioned in order to show evidence that the knee length justacorps were indeed worn by the buccaneers in the Carribean, and the one of the hides being stretched out for curing and the boucan in operation. Just because a few people didn't write something down doesnt necessarily negate the possibility any more than it justifies it.

Capt. Bo

[Monterey Jack]

I like yer thinkin' Capt!

the leather justaucorps is under construction as we speak; by the time I get it done maybe I will have figured out how to post a picture of it here!

[CaptainJackRussell]

I also think that leather is a true material for coats. A common term innsome shanties is "hard leather oilskin", so I guess the used exactly that.

Skin itself means leather, I guess.

The large, downflapped wrapups may be a protection while fencing. I use similar ones with my fencing garb.

Wool necessary? No idea. I guess, a buffleather coat is enough for the caribbean, but if northbound, fur and wool may be a welcome addition to the leather garnment.

Fair winds,

Jack

[Monterey Jack]

This buff leather takes oil really well and gives it a great antique look. The thing won't be lined and should weigh in at about 5 pounds. Still not sure whether to make the pockets functional and if so, whether or not to use more leather when broadcloth would be lighter overall.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

First off...

I'd like to say that there has been a recent (in the last month or so) and influx of really great members to this board. That is not to say that they all agree with me or anything, but this latest crop does seem to listen, research and post meaningfull information/opinions.

So, welcome again all of you!

Back to the posts....

Capn Bos comments on my post about leather and wool in the tropics...

While the writings in this book can pretty well be thrown to the garbage, the period illustrations cannot be denied.

I didn't meant to imply that they didn't wear wool, But If there is a picture or watercolor of a Buccaneer with a Justaucorps, than I think I missed it. When they are wearing wool, it seem to be either a short jacket style coat or some sort of smock.

Tall Paul.

Thanks for doing the extra bit of research on the coat. I Google Imaged Buff Coat and got those pictures I posted earlier. Other tinkering around on the web led me to one that was from a German Museum but dated to around 1730... I will look again to see if I can find it.

Because the one I posted is of leather, and is closer in designs to other buff coats of the 17th century, I am pretty sure that is what it is. It just happens to have full skirts (which would be important for use on horseback) and have turn-back cuffs as well.

So, If I were going to make something out of leather, I would make it like that buff coat, but use it in the context of a highwayman as it more than likely has an equestrian pedigree.

Whatever you make though, I am sure it will be interesting.

GoF

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

GoF,

Hope I didn't come across too sharp, I was fighting an 18 hour old migrane yesterday, and that tends to make me a bit testy. But for the topic, it would be a good addition to any mariners collection to have a copy of the Pirates from Time-Life just for the art. Like I said, the writings, save for a few quotes from Dampier, Defoe, and Esquemelling, is garbage, but the woodcuts, watercolors, and ships drawings are worth having for reference. There are several of Pyles in the way, but overall a good resource of visual aid. The book on The Pacific Navigators, also from that series, is where I found that painting of Petees bucket boot wearing "seamen"(?), and the info regarding the artist who painted it. These are available at Amazon books, some of the used ones are very reasonably priced.

Have a good one! Capt. Bo

[callenish gunner]

as to wool in the tropics on land it might have been a bit on the warm side but out on the ocean it would have been considered ... also at the time of the GOAP there was a period of climactic dip that lasted into the early 1800's (a mini ice-age) it had begun in the late 1300's so wool was not to be ruled out

[Monterey Jack]

I just switched out the brain-tanned deer for a better, lighter sheepskin that matches more closely the rest of the coat. Although I'll be bringing it along on piratical and buccaneerin venues, its unlikely that it'll ever see actual sea-service. However I plan to do a lot with the colonial folk here in the Pacific Northwest and it'll come in handy in the forest on those chilly eves.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Capn Bo...

No, I didn't take offense at all. As I said earlier... you "new guys" are adding quite a lot here..... THANKS!

GoF

[CaptainJackRussell]

Ahoy,

here I'll show you a quite bad picture of my Buffcoat, 5,2 kgs. heavy, while fighting an ugly orc during a LARP last Newyear meeting.

Buffcoat (containing me)

This is the same one I wear also if I'm on a ship for sailing (woolen garb is not enough within the North Atlantic except "Loden").

If anyone of you can supply me with the name of the german museum where the coat is...well...I'm german and I live in this country. Maybe I can catch more details upon it.

If they used buffcoats (or similar) only until the late 17th, what did they use afterwards?

Next weekend (this weekend I move) I join the german nautical museum in Bremerhaven to find out something more about this.

Keep your powder dry,

Jack

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Captain Jack Russel...

Where in Germany are you? I am near Wurzburg (PLZ 97252).

GoF