Capt. Sterling Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 The Avery print I posted earlier is very clearly an example of a left shoulder knot, and I know I've seen others (when I was considering adding a shoulder knot to one of my justacorps last year I couldn't make up my mind which shoulder to put it on - if all the pictrues had shown the right there would have been no question). A print of the "Cavalry and Infantry at the funeral of Queen Mary" shows a cavalry officer with what looks like a shoulder knot (and I can't think what else it might be). Whatever it is it's on his left shoulder. of the theory it seems unlikely that they were just suddenly invented one day, so it's reasonable to assume they originally had some function - whatever it may have been. I'd be hesitant to make any claim either way. Again just theory (and thanks for posting that info on the left shoulder pictures,) but one wonders if the fact that the baldrick seemed to become such a huge and elaborate thing, in one fashion plate of the period it almost looks as if the fella is wearing a blanket roll, if that had anything to do with the development of all those ribbons on the shoulder.... just a thought... Hector "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Hector Sorry, I thought you were making a connection between "leftenants" and left-shoulders That would be erroneous. For the record then, lieutenant has been pronounced "leftenant" in England since at least the beginning of the 17thC, and still is today. Oh not a problem Foxe! I went back and reread my original post and realized it was all over the place... I'm the one who should apologize... Hector "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barmy John Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Perhaps the function of these shoulder knots was as an aid to identification rather than as a means of stabilizing a baldric... Before rank insignia were devised, the rank of an officer was determined by whether one epaulette was on the left shoulder, or the right shoulder or both. Later a "counter-epaulette" (with no fringe) was given to those who wore only one. (Epaulette- Wikipedia) Since most if not all of the illustrations I've seen show shoulder knots on well to do gentlemen types or officers, perhaps this fashion represents the beginning of the epaulette, and is the outgrowth of various knots and shoulder sashes worn as military identification in the early to mid 17th century...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ol Man From the Sea Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 A thought: Knots came it just before Baldricks went out. I believe Baldricks went out as swords became smaller and lighter. Could the Knot have been more usefull for a light blade than a heavy one? Capt. Sterling, were your problems with the baldrick while riding with a light sword, a heavy sword or both? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Hand Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Could the Knot have been more usefull for a light blade than a heavy one? Interesting idea..... with a lighter blade, the baldrick would tend to "slip more"........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjohn Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Only two pages, and my brain is swimming... how odd. Fwiw, my sources say French ribbon epaulettes of the period were "frequently worn apparently as a part of regimental dress, not necessarily as a badge of rank." There's an accompanying pic of a Garde Francaise musketeer of 1680 with ribbons on both shoulders, as well as his hat. My Home on the Web The Pirate Brethren Gallery Dreams are the glue that holds reality together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 plain old fashion plates for civies "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjohn Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 no surprises... military fashions and civil often overlap. hell, I've got a pair of 20 year old camo fatigues I still wear... HA! I wonder what dude in the lower panel has that ribbon tied to? You know, that one right there. Hel-loooo sailor! My Home on the Web The Pirate Brethren Gallery Dreams are the glue that holds reality together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
callenish gunner Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 one thing that was noted earlier was the weight of the swords were evolving but so were the baldricks ....many were no longer heavy leather but embroidered silks ...the courtly swords and small swords favoured by the gentry didn't require the strength needed for earlier swords when they were carried .... so in many cases the fabric used for the baldricks could have been a bit more "slippery" than the leather that held heavier blades ...IMHO (just an observation from my many years of museum studies of period weapons) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 In the GAoP era British army a simple shoulder knot was the badge of a corporal, and I believe that any civilian use of them came from the military. Officers, who were not bound by very strict uniform regulations sometimes wore them as a badge of rank, and there is some slim evidence that the practice spread to the navy. It would be wrong to say that they were always worn on the right shoulder, I can think of a couple of pictures of them on the left, and I believe that was standard for corporals. See, for example, this picture of Henry Avery from the GHP. Old tread but... I have always thought that those things were first real form of epauletes..... I need to say that I think that we need to remember when we look engravings (and try to determinate sides of swords etc) that originally picture, when engraved, was a mirror image of that there were in the paper see the printing way is like that. Of course good artists would remember that but perhaps not always... "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mission Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Wow, look at the people discussing this absurdly picayune topic! Ah, the golden age of pirates forum. Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Hey look here pictures of french soldiers in 1690s and see many has those shoulder things in BOTH sides e.g in 2.47 "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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