Shoulder Knots

[Capt. Sterling]

The Avery print I posted earlier is very clearly an example of a left shoulder knot, and I know I've seen others (when I was considering adding a shoulder knot to one of my justacorps last year I couldn't make up my mind which shoulder to put it on - if all the pictrues had shown the right there would have been no question). A print of the "Cavalry and Infantry at the funeral of Queen Mary" shows a cavalry officer with what looks like a shoulder knot (and I can't think what else it might be). Whatever it is it's on his left shoulder.

of the theory it seems unlikely that they were just suddenly invented one day, so it's reasonable to assume they originally had some function - whatever it may have been. I'd be hesitant to make any claim either way.

Again just theory (and thanks for posting that info on the left shoulder pictures,) but one wonders if the fact that the baldrick seemed to become such a huge and elaborate thing, in one fashion plate of the period it almost looks as if the fella is wearing a blanket roll, if that had anything to do with the development of all those ribbons on the shoulder.... just a thought...

Hector

[Capt. Sterling]

Hector

Sorry, I thought you were making a connection between "leftenants" and left-shoulders

That would be erroneous.

For the record then, lieutenant has been pronounced "leftenant" in England since at least the beginning of the 17thC, and still is today.

Oh not a problem Foxe! I went back and reread my original post and realized it was all over the place... I'm the one who should apologize...

Hector

[Barmy John]

Perhaps the function of these shoulder knots was as an aid to identification rather than as a means of stabilizing a baldric...

Before rank insignia were devised, the rank of an officer was determined by whether one epaulette was on the left shoulder, or the right shoulder or both. Later a "counter-epaulette" (with no fringe) was given to those who wore only one.

(Epaulette- Wikipedia) Since most if not all of the illustrations I've seen show shoulder knots on well to do gentlemen types or officers, perhaps this fashion represents the beginning of the epaulette, and is the outgrowth of various knots and shoulder sashes worn as military identification in the early to mid 17th century...?

[Ol Man From the Sea]

A thought:

Knots came it just before Baldricks went out.

I believe Baldricks went out as swords became smaller and lighter.

Could the Knot have been more usefull for a light blade than a heavy one?

Capt. Sterling, were your problems with the baldrick while riding with a light sword, a heavy sword or both?

[Patrick Hand]

Could the Knot have been more usefull for a light blade than a heavy one?

Interesting idea..... with a lighter blade, the baldrick would tend to "slip more"...........

[blackjohn]

Only two pages, and my brain is swimming... how odd.

Fwiw, my sources say French ribbon epaulettes of the period were "frequently worn apparently as a part of regimental dress, not necessarily as a badge of rank." There's an accompanying pic of a Garde Francaise musketeer of 1680 with ribbons on both shoulders, as well as his hat.

[Capt. Sterling]

plain old fashion plates for civies

[blackjohn]

no surprises... military fashions and civil often overlap. hell, I've got a pair of 20 year old camo fatigues I still wear...

HA! I wonder what dude in the lower panel has that ribbon tied to? You know, that one right there. Hel-loooo sailor!

[callenish gunner]

one thing that was noted earlier was the weight of the swords were evolving but so were the baldricks ....many were no longer heavy leather but embroidered silks ...the courtly swords and small swords favoured by the gentry didn't require the strength needed for earlier swords when they were carried .... so in many cases the fabric used for the baldricks could have been a bit more "slippery" than the leather that held heavier blades ...IMHO (just an observation from my many years of museum studies of period weapons)

[Swashbuckler 1700]

In the GAoP era British army a simple shoulder knot was the badge of a corporal, and I believe that any civilian use of them came from the military. Officers, who were not bound by very strict uniform regulations sometimes wore them as a badge of rank, and there is some slim evidence that the practice spread to the navy.

It would be wrong to say that they were always worn on the right shoulder, I can think of a couple of pictures of them on the left, and I believe that was standard for corporals.

See, for example, this picture of Henry Avery from the GHP.

Old tread but...

I have always thought that those things were first real form of epauletes.....

I need to say that I think that we need to remember when we look engravings (and try to determinate sides of swords etc) that originally picture, when engraved, was a mirror image of that there were in the paper see the printing way is like that. Of course good artists would remember that but perhaps not always...

[Mission]

Wow, look at the people discussing this absurdly picayune topic! Ah, the golden age of pirates forum.

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Hey look here pictures of french soldiers in 1690s and see many has those shoulder things in BOTH sides

e.g in 2.47