Chests

[CaptainSatan]

That Smoke & Fire chest looks interesting.  But just because a sutler sells it doesn't mean it is correct.

    :)

That chest IS NOT period. But if you leave off the feet, replace the wooden handles with rope or metal, and use some hand forged nails you have something that would be very similar to surviving examples and chests depicted in art from the period.Even though it would not be based on a specific specimen it would never the less be true to the period. I have not seen the hinges for that chest, but they could be replaced as well.

-CS

[Patrick Hand]

If you had posted this in Plunder I doubt anyone would have said one peep about it. In here, people like to discuss the deep dark details of things, preferably with some sort of supporting evidence.

Were this thread meant for any serious discussion it would not mention the words treasure and chest in the same sentence.

If you had posted this in Plunder

Sorry, Black John is right...... Fun Pyrate stuff gets posted in plunder, and discussions about real period stuff gets posted in Twill....

The easiest way to deal with this, is to just start another thread in Plunder all about Treasure Chest.... (that way the entire thread dosen't have to get moved...) The links to treasure chest hardware are good, and how to make one, and pictures of ones that have been made are all cool.... but if you post in Twill, expect to be asked about historical accuracy.......

Sure, it's kinda snobbish..... but if someone reads in Twill how to make or where to buy an "authentic" treasure chest (or bucket boots)....... Wellllll the debates are always fun to read......

[oderlesseye]

Vallejo Maritime Gallery ... is really cool.. EYE gotta go there..

Harbormaster please grant me to tell ye that period or not ... the chest ye has is indeed handsome and Eyes would like to come into posession of one...

[Ol Man From the Sea]

Captain Jim

Thank you for posting that beautiful captains chest. I learned a lot from that photo as it shows just about everything I was expecting not to see in a period seamans chest.

No beckets

Fine wood

Dovetails

Over lapping lid all around

Finaly, I realized that it is a Captains chest, which is to say not a seamans chest. I had read that Captains would have several chest in their cabin each with its purpose, but when I looked at chest I had not thought to be aware of the distinction.

As I am not a captain, at least not yet, I want info on seamans chest.

Although, I can see how a lowly pirate might get his hands on a captains chest. I bet no pirate ever left a captain's liquor chest behind. Who says treasure chest are hollywood. Just have to think about what pirates really treasured. :)

[Ol Man From the Sea]

That chest IS NOT period. But if you leave off the feet, replace the wooden handles with rope or metal, and use some hand forged nails you have something that would be very similar to surviving examples and chests depicted in art from the period.Even though it would not be based on a specific specimen it would never the less be true to the period. I have not seen the hinges for that chest, but they could be replaced as well.

Sorry captain but even with all those chages that chest still will not be period. I looked at their plans for one this weekend. The joinery is way off. To make anything close to a period chest you would need to remachine all or at least most of the wood. It would be as much or more work than starting from scratch. It would have been nice if it could be saved with a few small changes, but alas no.

[CaptainSatan]

Where did you see the plans? I'd like to take a looksie myself

And please be specific. Share your knowledge and expertise with the rest of the crew. I for one would like to know the details of the post period joinery you are refering to. I am very interested in whatever methods you are refering to that were never used to construct a wooden box before 1720.

-CS

[CaptainSatan]

Sorry, Black John is right...... Fun Pyrate stuff gets posted in plunder, and discussions about real period stuff gets posted in Twill....

That's kinda my point.I wasn't expecting a thread titled Chests, "Treasure" and otherwise to be posted with the real period stuff?

Anyway... my mistake, I saw the name of the thread and assumed that that it wasn't a serious discussion. I'll pay more attention to where it is posted next time

-CS

[Captain Jim]

While this thread was posted under Twill and veered into the realm of "Hollywood" for a while, it is still useful in showing what was probably not used during this period.

Actually Selkirk (whose chest I posted) was sailing master for William Dampier on the privateer Cinque Ports and was voluntarily marooned on the island of Juan Fernandez in 1704 after disagreeing with the captain over the seaworthiness of the Cinque Ports. He was rescued four years and four months later by the privateer Duke commanded by Woodes Rogers whose pilot was…William Dampier. Pirates everywhere.

Your typical sea chest at the time was more that likely not uniform in any meaningful way. Some would have been an old crate or even a barrel. Later, during the Golden Age of Whaling, more uniform chest types were quite common. Here, from Marilinespike.com, is an example of a whaler’s type chest, of which many original examples are available on the antique market.

We have also seen one example of such a chest in a period painting depicting a harbor/dock scene (Ludolf Backhuysen, Dutch, 1673, among the baggage in the foreground).

So is it period? It was probably uncommon, and almost certainly did not have the intricate beckets that are one of the hallmarks of the whaling chest, but an argument could be made for its use in its plainer form.

Otherwise any well constructed chest-type box should be acceptable, with attention paid to regional and period styles, which is why knowing where and when those chests posted earlier were built is critical.

[CaptainSatan]

Aaahhh...thank you so much for posting that painting!

There are so many surviving examples and replicas of that type of chest, but the vast majority are from the mid 19th century.It's such a practical design because its hard to tip over on rough seas ( or the back of a Jeep).I am very pleased that there is documentation to place that basic design in TGAoP.

I especially like the fact that the corners are bound in iron. That would be a lot less work than dovetails.

Cheers!

-CS

[Captain Jim]

Angled dovetails or, harder yet, compound angled dovetails.

[CaptainSatan]

I'm quite happy to stick with nails, pegs, n' iron straps

I suppose those are simple rope handles attached to two pairs of holes on the sides of the chest.

Speaking of beckets...

I was researching an earlier period chest from the Mary Rose(English,built 1509-1511, sank in 1545). And I noticed a very simple 6 board chest that had cleats like those on later period chests for attaching beckets.Something else unusual 'bout that chest was the fact that it was dove tailed (somewhat uncommon for an English chest of the period). I can't help but wonder if that particular chest was liberated from a sea-frog or aquired eslewhere on the continent. Another thing unusual was the fact the chest was constructed of pine, walnut, and poplar. I'm just speculating here, but I suspect that chest was constructed out of scraps, yet someone took the time to dovetail the edges using 16th century tools.

~CS

[kass]

While this thread was posted under Twill and veered into the realm of "Hollywood" for a while, it is still useful in showing what was probably not used during this period.

Which is why your intrepid moderator has not deleted it, Jim. :)

In future, Satan, if you want to discuss "fun Pyrate" stuff, it doesn't belong here.

But I'm glad this thread has come around to what IS appropriate for the period. Thank you, woodworking specialists!

[CaptainSatan]

In future, Satan, if you want to discuss "fun Pyrate" stuff, it doesn't belong here.

That would be Captain Satan to you love

...and as I mentioned earlier I was responding to the Hollywood title of this thread. Had it been titled Sea Chests my first shot across the bow would be carbon dating wood fragments , impurities in period nails, and the deforestation of Ireland and it's impact on early 17th century English carpentry

But seriously....now that I know the rules I promise to play nice.

-CS

[CaptainSatan]

Back to the subjects of chests...

I'm interested to know when barrel top, or humped lid chests began to be constructed out of multiple boards. The earlier chest lids were hewn out of a single piece of wood that was round on top and hollowed out underneath. The earliest example that I've found is in Hereford Cathedral in the UK. The best date that I have is sometime in the 15th century.Rather unusual for a iron bound chest of pine to actually last 600 years.

If you know of any art from TGAoP that depicts a chest with a round lid made of multiple boards please post it here. Ditto for any surviving examples. I know that multiple board lids and single piece hewn lids both existed during TGAoP. What I would like to know is, when did the multiple board lids FIRST appear?

Inquiring minds want to know

Any of you hardcore reenactors able to shine your double candle ships lantern on this subject ???

-CS

[Patrick Hand]

Marlinespike.com sells plans on how to make the sea chest, I think William posted eairlier that he bought a copy. A review would be kinda nice.....

I know that wide pine boards use to be much more common than they are now.... so a period chest wouldn't have to use glued together boards...

I'm still trying to figure out the dementions that I want to use to make one.... But unfortunatly, there are some modern considerations that I will have to factor in (such as could I take it on an airplane.... Pyrates didn't have to worry about that...)

I'm also wondering about the backets.... maybe not as complex as on latter period chest, but handles to move the thing seem to be a must.... there are some post (I think) in Plunder on how to make them......

Right now, I'm just looking for references and such, it won't be untill later that I get around to actully making it.... The biggest hastle in this pre-planning stage is trying to decide how much to modify it's size (and exactly what form of jointery I will use....) Do I make a sea chest that is period dementions, but I can only use localy, or how much do I cheat and make something that I can use for PiP.......but still is a semi-period sea chest......

[blackjohn]

What I would like to know is, when did the multiple board lids FIRST appear?

This first time someone had to piece together a lid because it was less than the price of a single board?

Remember. Here, in the colonial era, all the huge trees had yet to be felled. The floorboards in the oldest house in Cape Cod are immense!

[Patrick Hand]

Not Sea chest..... but from Building Classic Small Craft by John Gardner.

New England dories came into being when native lumber was plentiful and cheap, when beautiful clear boards of northern white pine 14 inches, 15 inches and even 18 inches wide were to be had for a few cents a board foot

And that was after the GAoP..........

[CaptainSatan]

This first time someone had to piece together a lid because it was less than the price of a single board?

Yes but when did that happen? More importantly when can that be documented. And remember not all chests would have been built in the colonies.The chest I was discussing from the Mary Rose seemed to be made from scraps in England or Europe.Again I am speculating, but I suspect that multiple boards on a round lid were the result of new wood working techniques rather than a shortage of materials.

From my personal experience making Dark Age furniture I can tell you that hewing out a tree trunk is a lot more labour intensive than making something from pre-cut boards.Unless you are making a strong box , I can't think of any advantage to making a curved lid from a solid block of wood with an adze.

-CS

[CaptainSatan]

Marlinespike.com sells plans on how to make the sea chest, I think William posted eairlier that he bought a copy. A review would be kinda nice.....

I know that wide pine boards use to be much more common than they are now.... so a period chest wouldn't have to use glued together boards...

"The Sea Chest, History and Construction Plans", written and illustrated by Tim Whitten, details traditional sea chest construction methods. Included are dimensions and details unique to the typical slanted seamans chest as illustrated in the finished models shown below. The book is 24 pages and plastic bound to allow it to lay flat. Also contains sources for hard to find materials such as hand forged hinges and wide board lumber. $12 plus shipping.

http://www.marlinespike.com/sea_chests.html

I had seen that book but I mistakenly thought those chests were all post period. Since Captain Jim has enlightened me on the subject I will order a copy tonight

And you are correct Mr. Hand! Wider boards will give you a more period look. If I am going to go to the trouble & expense of having boards custom millled I will probably go ahead and go with a hardwood myself.I may make a low cost PROTOTYPE out of plywood. By the time it received a few coats of sanded milk paint it would look good in the background (slightly out of focus) for some of my pyrate photos. Since it wouldn't be period I would probably donate it to a pyratee kid to use as a toy chest. Maybe it's that wacky perfectionist gene, but I like to play with low cost mockups before I start cutting & drilling those expensive custom milled boards.

-CS

More sea chest plans http://classicseachests.com/contact_us.htm

-

[CaptainSatan]

Ok here is a closeup of the sea chest from around 1673.

It does not appear to be joined by dovetails, nor does it feature cleats and fancy beckets. I can't see a lot of detail but it appears to have an over hanging lid like the later period chests.

-CS

PS: I'm working on getting y'all a copy of the mysterious Mary Rose chest that I keep talking about.If nothing else I have some hard copies somewher in my office.

[CaptainSatan]

And here are some pretty pictures of the mid 19th century or classic sea chest. These chests were made by Classic Sea Chests & Display Boats.

The dimensions are 39 inches by 19 inches by 16-5/8 inches high. The chests in pine weigh approx 45 lbs. You can see even better pictures by visiting their website.

http://classicseachests.com/

You'll notice that these later period chests have a similar (but more subtle sloping) shape as the chest pictured in the 17th century painting. Unlike the earlier chest, these examples feature wooden cleats on the sides of the chest for simple rope handles. They have dovetail joints and some reinforcing around the the bottom exterior edge.The little brass hinges are obviously way too modern and the black tape on rope handles needs to go, the dog tag chain on the lid should be replaced as well. While I don't have any hard eveidence to back it up.I do suspect that the simple rope handles eyed through the cleats would be closer to the period than the fancy beckets we see on 19th century chests.

While the 1763 chest does not have any visible dovetailed joints or cleats, the chest found on the Mary Rose posseses both of these features.And that chest was made AT LEAST 128 years before the one in the painting. So it's quite possible that the mid 19th century style may be more period than they first appear. Remember the chest in the painting is only one example.

-CS

[CaptainSatan]

What I would like to know is, when did the multiple board lids FIRST appear?

This first time someone had to piece together a lid because it was less than the price of a single board?

Remember. Here, in the colonial era, all the huge trees had yet to be felled. The floorboards in the oldest house in Cape Cod are immense!

Please keep in mind that you can't make a TRADITIONAL barrel/humped lid from a single board. To make it out of a single piece of wood you would need something like a split tree trunk.

-CS

[blackjohn]

I suspect if someone wanted to they could. Warping wood isn't all that difficult.

A previous sea cheast thread:

https://pyracy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=5771

[CaptainSatan]

" Warping wood isn't all that difficult."

But are there any examples of pirate era chests that were built that way?

-CS

PS.

Here are some pictures of a lid made from a single peice of wood and one made of multiple boards. I'm not including any documentation because I just want to illustrate the two different styles. The first two images are a reproduction of a Viking Age chest.

[CaptainSatan]

Here is a mid 18th century pine sea chest. It was probably made about 30 years after TGAoP. I can see nothing in the actual design that is post period.You could also reconstruct a similar chest using iron brackets on the corners instead of dovetail joints.

18.5" wide, 45" long (on the top), and 20" high.

Note the nails in the cleats, the over lapping lid, and the large dovetails.

-CS