Drawers.....

[Patrick Hand]

I looked around on the internet... found an English Civil War page, that showed a pair of reproduction drawers.....

I figured that drawers would have the same basic cut as mens breeches, but be slightly looser in the leg. This pair, goes to just above my knees, has a single button at the waistband, and a tie to adjust them.

I'm not sure if they are correct, but it's the best guess that I can come up with at the time.......

(Kinda funny posting a picture of underwear in Capt. Twill and not in Beyond Piracy... )

[greenighs]

Nice bloomers, Mr. Hand, an' better since I didna even ha' to buy ye dinner to get a look!

[Tall Paul]

There is a pair of 18th Century mens Drawers in the V&A, (Thats the Victoria and Albert Museum). they are cut almost exactly like a pair of period breeches, fastening just below the Knee.

[Syera]

A bit white, ain't they? They'll show every stain they've picked up, and some they haven't!

Oh, undies, are they? H'm... I should seriously consider making a pair for my Sims. You wouldn't mind if I nipped that picture of yours for reference, would you?

[Black Hearted Pearl]

my imagination is running wild. Oops, that's right this is "Captain Twill" not "A way to a pyrate's heart." I apololgize.

[greenighs]

my imagination is running wild. Oops, that's right this is "Captain Twill" not "A way to a pyrate's heart." I apololgize.

So, if I understand ye correctly, is that the .... way to a Pyrates's heart ... is .... running wild in his drawers?

[greenighs]

I've been looking through some sites fer what an 18th century sailor would wear, an' I'm wonderin' if he'd even concern himself with underthings. But I suppose, yer captains an' quartermasters an' such would wear fancier garb than th' stuff I've been looking fer. So, Mr. Hand, de ye wear yer undergarments when yer portrayin' a man o' rank, or even when yer bein' a simple deck hand?

I really am wonderin' about it, not jus' trying t' drawer attention t' m'self.

[dasNdanger]

HEY!!! THAT'S what I wear!!!!! LOL!!

Actually - nice pic. Gives me a better idea of what small clothes looked like...I tended to think more of those red longjohns made popular in westerns...

But - like the previous poster asked - how concerned were pirates with such things? I've been thinking about it - and the first thing that comes to mind is salt water rash. I wonder if underclothes were a protection against such things...or if they had the opposite effect. Perhaps a rash/rashless sailor out there could share some...personal (a.k.a. 'private') observations.

das

[Fox]

We-ell,

Drawers are mentioned in the Admiralty Slop specifications, as well as supply documents, and wills. It's safe to say that seamen owned drawers, from which it's reasonable to infer that they wore them, yes.

[Patrick Hand]

I would like to find more info about drawers. In an article in The Book of Buckskinning the author states that Mountain men did not wear underwear. and I've read about "dirty shirttails" (eeewh...) But in the Slops contracts, drawers are listed, and in Robinson Courso (sp) there was a reference to them.... I know during the American Civil War, they were worn, but I'm not sure about the Rev. War period..... I think NOT wearing them was more of an American frounter kind of thing.....

[Rumba Rue]

Interesting that drawers would be available to men, but not women. I also question the year/century that those drawers would be availble to men.

I just finished doing some research on the woman's monthly period and what they did about it.

Bloomers technically weren't around until the 19th century, according to my research.

Women simply wore chemises and bled upon themselves. I found it interesting that back in those days, the majority of women didn't have their monthly flow like many do nowadays. Some never even had one, others when they did, it was spotty at best.

If you want to know more (well I doubt the men do), check out The Women's Museum of Menstration: Women's Museum

[Fox]

Why women didn't wear drawers

Drawers are essentially there to protect the outer breeches from the dirt which would attack them from the wearer's skin, and from the obvious bodily functions and resultant debris.

Nowadays we think of underwear as something which is next to the skin, whereas drawers in the 18th century are something next to the breeches, it's a fine distinction but an important one. Essentially think of drawers as being a removable lining for one's breeches.

Women didn't wear drawers because they didn't wear breeches. Instead they wore underskirts (what you might call petticoats), and long shifts to protect their skirts from the dirt of skin and bodily functions. Their petticoats were a removable lining to their skirts in the same way as drawers were to men's breeches.

Drawers developed from the braes of medieval times, which date back to at least pre-Conquest times and have a continuous history right through to the present day. I would say that Patrick's drawers are probably quite typical of the basic 17th-19th century men's underwear.

[Capt. Sterling]

One must remember as well that during the 18th century NOT everyone bothered to wear drawers.... most just used the tails of the very long shirts to tuck about themselves under their breeches.

Hector

[kass]

Thanks for posting that link, Rue. A midwife friend of mine (who's also an 18thc reenactor and, of course, interested in women's medicine in the time period) sent that to me last week. We'd long been debating the question. My argument has always been against women wearing drawers and now there's proof. :)

One of the biggest reasons for women not to wear drawers is there's less mess without them. This is why when women finally started to wear drawers in the 19th century, they were crotchless. Even as late as the 1960s, a lot of women's undergarments were open on the bottom. Air is a good thing for we womenfolk.

You know what else occurred to me in my quest to prove the nonexistence of women's drawers -- why male children aren't breeched until the age of three or four. They're wearing diapers! It's easier to change a child when he's wearing a skirt. And there's less mess if there's a leak (and I'm sure period diapers leaked all the time). Same methodology for women, really. Except that they don't wear diapers.

What I don't understand is the people who argue that they need to wear bicycle shorts under their petticotes to prevent chaffing. Personally even the thought of lycra bike shorts makes me chafe!

I just can't agree with you, Foxe, that drawers were typical. Yes, the slops contracts make numerous mention of them. But other sources don't talk about drawers until much later. And then they are touted as if they're this new invention. Do you think it's possible that seamen found them essential but lubbers hadn't heard of them yet? I guess that's possible. Just have to mention that before I talked to you on the subject, I thought drawers were unheard of for men until the late 18th century. But I wasn't doing much in the way of naval stuff before.

I would say that wearing or not wearing drawers is equally typical of the period. But women should never wear them. 'Cuz I said so. And put a damned cap on, you shameless hussy!

[Fox]

We-ell,

Yes, I think that it's possible seamen adopted the wearing of drawers first (as they seem to have done with pockets for example) out of practicality. Exactly why it was practical I can't think offhand, unless it had something to do with their wearing of slops and petticoat breeches

I can't show you evidence of widespread drawer wearing (except amongst seamen), but I can point out other drawer related incidents from before the late 18th century.

In his "Memoirs of D'Artagnan" (1700), for example, Courtilz de Sandraz mentions that Aramis fights a duel while he's suffering from dysentry and soils himself. He is forced to go and buy a new pair of drawers. We can infer reasonably that a: Aramis was wearing drawers, and it does not seem to have been all that surprising to a 1700 audience, and that b: he had, at that time, only one pair with him (I forget whether he was at home or off roaming)

For those of an athletic mind, according to Henry Teonge's diary (1670s) drawers and stockings seems to have been a seaman's prefered swimming wear.

[Rumba Rue]

What I don't understand is the people who argue that they need to wear bicycle shorts under their petticotes to prevent chaffing.  Personally even the thought of lycra bike shorts makes me chafe! 

There's been times I've actually worn shorts under my skirts for not only to prevent chafing, but to have a quick undress when the day is over.

Gals with thin legs don't have a problem, but those of us who aren't, have had to deal with some pretty bad chafing, especially in hot weather.

I'm not sure about lycra bike pants, but whatever....

[Mad Matt]

What? Pyrates didn't wear boxer briefs?!?!

You don't say...?!?!?!

Would they normally have started out white in color?

[kass]

We-ell,

Yes, I think that it's possible seamen adopted the wearing of drawers first (as they seem to have done with pockets for example) out of practicality. Exactly why it was practical I can't think offhand, unless it had something to do with their wearing of slops and petticoat breeches

I can't show you evidence of widespread drawer wearing (except amongst seamen), but I can point out other drawer related incidents from before the late 18th century.

In his "Memoirs of D'Artagnan" (1700), for example, Courtilz de Sandraz mentions that Aramis fights a duel while he's suffering from dysentry and soils himself. He is forced to go and buy a new pair of drawers. We can infer reasonably that a: Aramis was wearing drawers, and it does not seem to have been all that surprising to a 1700 audience, and that b: he had, at that time, only one pair with him (I forget whether he was at home or off roaming)

For those of an athletic mind, according to Henry Teonge's diary (1670s) drawers and stockings seems to have been a seaman's prefered swimming wear.

Yeah, but he's foreign...

Thanks for the ref, Ed. I do appreciate it.

Rue, I don't have skinny legs by any stretch of the imagination! Chafing can be seriously reduced by wearing nothing. Chafing is exacerbated by the rub of cloth and elastic against the skin and the accumulation of bodily oils and sweat on that cloth. Sweat on the skin actually works as a natural lubricant and you don't chafe.

Have you ever tried it? Because I have and I've never chafed.

[Rumba Rue]

Yup Kass I have. It doesn't work for me. I sweat so bad I could fill a lake!

[Fox]

Very true Kass, being a Frenchman to boot I suspect that they were pink silk with lace hems and embroidered flowers...

However, you did get me thinking about the general wearing of drawers. Some more references to do with as you will:

"The inventory of Mr Thomas Purchas Sr, who died in Linn, May 11 1678, aged 101 years [which I think is significant given the elderly's frequent reluctance to accept new fashions]. ... 2 pr of bretches, 1 dublett, 1 pair of drawers... "

"Inventory of the estate of Samuel Condie, taken April 30, 1678, by Moses Mavericke etc. ... 2paier cloth britches 10s, 1 cloth coat 12s, one cap cloth coat 7s, 1 paier of woolen drawers 4s, ..."

"Inventory of the goods of John Watkins 1641 ... an old suit 8s, a suit of clothes 1li 5s, 2 pair drawers 4s, 6 pair stockings 7s 6d, ..."

etc.

Looking through some stacks of 17thC colonial wills I reckon (at an estimate) about 70% of the men's include drawers.

[greenighs]

Tried it. Doesn't work for me. I'd wear drawers under skirts, even if it wasn't historically accurate, just for comfort. If the historians want to peek up my dress, well ..... they'd have to at least buy me a drink first.

[Rumba Rue]

I don't care what one wears under their skirts-BFD- I've thrawted more than one guy wearing my bloomers!

[dasNdanger]

Chafing can be seriously reduced by wearing nothing. Chafing is exacerbated by the rub of cloth and elastic against the skin and the accumulation of bodily oils and sweat on that cloth. Sweat on the skin actually works as a natural lubricant and you don't chafe.

Have you ever tried it? Because I have and I've never chafed.

I've tried it without shorts, and have chafed so badly that I can't walk the next day. But I wear tight, cotton blend shorts, nothing that 'moves'...and I avoid 100% synthetic shorts. Now - there have been times that I've gone shortless and haven't chafed that bad, it usually depends on the weather, etc. But when I go to faires and all, I walk A LOT - not much for sitting and watching shows, so my poor thighs get a real workout, and have always found it better to wear tight, breathable shorts or underthingys. I used to wear these things that belonged to me grandma - not sure what you would call them, just light, cotton 'bloomers', or something - very thin, and VERY comfy. Not sure they're made these days, tho...

das

[greenighs]

As of this morning, 341 people have peeked at PatrickHand's drawers.

*giggle*

[kass]

Yup Kass I have. It doesn't work for me. I sweat so bad I could fill a lake!

But that's what you want to do -- sweat! Sweat lubricates your thighs so they don't chafe. It's absorbing the sweat that causes the problem.

I sweat like a great sweating thing, and my thighs rub together, and I have never had the slightest irritation.