Leather Capps faced with Red Cotton, and lined wit

[Captain Pogue]

Alright, I'm gonna mention PotC AWE in twill. But it is only as reference... Boot Strap wears a cap that doesn't look knit, but can't be certain if it is leather. Has anybody seen anything like it for the GAoP?

Thanks

[blackjohn]

What scene? It's spinning in my PS3 even as I type this... I'll take a look.

[BILLY BONES]

Maybe I've missed something. I do know I can't get John's pics, but I wouldn't get a leather cap out of Foxe's example. It appears to be a red cloth cap with the bottom folded up to expose the tan lining. Someone mentioned the workmen's cap, and I think it's a variation of that. Hard leather caps certainly existed in the military in this period, but I can't see a sailor wearing one. I've been wrong before.

[Captain Pogue]

The slop contract mentioned a leather cap. Don't know if it's a leather monmouth or something else... What about a Phrygian(Liberty Cap), they've been around a long time but their due to their meaning would they be "used" by the british?

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Does anyone have the slightest idea of what these could be?

Foxe has a picuture on his site that has a sailor with a red cap/hat.

Think its close???

GoF

To wake up old tread

It is possible that the artists is not P. Monamy at all see this page http://www.cichw.net/pmodds1.html

There is actually not date known as far as I know and many books and web pages say either early/ mid/late 18^th c and those which dare to guess date say either 1730 or 1760.

So is that leather cap why not but I think it is quite unlikely…

Educate me if needed…

In one book there is interesting view of those Rn caps. see this tread (where it is as offtopic stuff ) https://pyracy.com/in...s/page__st__180

There is view of them as quite grenadier cap like caps which are quite similar to this later cap from 1770s http://www.hmsrichmo...bargeseaman.jpg

that style is still just a one possibility.....

Edited April 17, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Grymm]

I always wondered if the red crown on the hat worn by the peglegged sailor in the foreground of Hogarth's Chairing The Member was one of these red faced leather caps.....'s odd, a white laced black brim but a red crown, heigh ho!

Clicking on the pic should bring up a hoooooge version.

Edited April 17, 2012 by Grymm

[Swashbuckler 1700]

I always wondered if the red crown on the hat worn by the peglegged sailor in the foreground of Hogarth's Chairing The Member was one of these red faced leather caps.....'s odd, a white laced black brim but a red crown, heigh ho!

Clicking on the pic should bring up a hoooooge version.

To me it is just a tricorn with red crown. Nice wooden legged sailor ( clothing and cane reveals that hi is a sailor. Are those slop trousers?) Note that half naked man on the left has similar hat with orange cockade....

[Grymm]

To me it is just a tricorn with red crown. Nice wooden legged sailor ( clothing and cane reveals that hi is a sailor. Are those slop trousers?) Note that half naked man on the left has similar hat with orange cockade....

Could be just that, a cocked hat with a red crown but I've never come across mentions of different coloured crown in all my hat research(which is quite a bit) plus it's on a sailor, me I'm not leaning one way or t'other just flagging it up as a possible.

Both are red cockades, the other candidate's supporters wear a blue one, the red and blue cockades are a common theme in all 4 of the Election Series.

In Hogarth it's not just sailors who carry cudgels/heavy walking sticks, they are the 'weapon of choice' of a lot of his country and poor folk, in fact cudgeling was a common past-time/sport in the late 17thC & 18thC the basic idea being to draw an inch of blood, for a win.

From a newspaper of June 1721 about the Broughton Green Fair

"the Earl of Stafford has been pleas'd to give a hat, Value one Guinea, to be play'd for on Monday at Cudgels........"

Other entertainments were wrestling, horse racing and a ladies smock race. an excuse for blokes to see women running in their shifts in the hope that one would fall and flash her bits =o)

[Fox]

From a newspaper of June 1721 about the Broughton Green Fair

"the Earl of Stafford has been pleas'd to give a hat, Value one Guinea, to be play'd for on Monday at Cudgels........"

I wonder what colour it was...

[Mission]

A wooden-legged sailor! Just in time for the second half of my article on period amputation which will include bits on prosthetic limbs. (I appreciate you folks keeping me abreast of these things. )

I think it's interesting that the red top of the tricorn has a sheen. You wouldn't expect that of a regular tri-corn, I think. But I may be reading too much into Hogarth's use of shading. (It's too bad Hogarth isn't alive today to draw images of re-enactors studying and interpreting his images.)

[Swashbuckler 1700]

To me it is just a tricorn with red crown. Nice wooden legged sailor ( clothing and cane reveals that hi is a sailor. Are those slop trousers?) Note that half naked man on the left has similar hat with orange cockade....

Could be just that, a cocked hat with a red crown but I've never come across mentions of different coloured crown in all my hat research(which is quite a bit) plus it's on a sailor, me I'm not leaning one way or t'other just flagging it up as a possible.

Both are red cockades, the other candidate's supporters wear a blue one, the red and blue cockades are a common theme in all 4 of the Election Series.

In Hogarth it's not just sailors who carry cudgels/heavy walking sticks, they are the 'weapon of choice' of a lot of his country and poor folk, in fact cudgeling was a common past-time/sport in the late 17thC & 18thC the basic idea being to draw an inch of blood, for a win.

From a newspaper of June 1721 about the Broughton Green Fair

"the Earl of Stafford has been pleas'd to give a hat, Value one Guinea, to be play'd for on Monday at Cudgels........"

Other entertainments were wrestling, horse racing and a ladies smock race. an excuse for blokes to see women running in their shifts in the hope that one would fall and flash her bits =o)

See it is tricorn with cockade and all. It has the sides of tricorn but indeed red crown.... odd.... Thanks for the pic

Edited April 17, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Jas. Hook]

Grymm -

That's one heck of a busy painting with a lot going on... ya' need to focus in on a small bit at a time to try and figure out what all is happening.

I'm glad that Mission has captured the 'musket monkey' already in his photo. The fiddler reminds me of Capn'Rob.

Jas. Hook

[Swashbuckler 1700]

I bet that hairy man on the corner (with violin) looks also like somebody.

Nice monkey Mission

Edited April 17, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Grymm]

A wooden-legged sailor! Just in time for the second half of my article on period amputation which will include bits on prosthetic limbs. (I appreciate you folks keeping me abreast of these things. )

I think it's interesting that the red top of the tricorn has a sheen. You wouldn't expect that of a regular tri-corn, I think. But I may be reading too much into Hogarth's use of shading. (It's too bad Hogarth isn't alive today to draw images of re-enactors studying and interpreting his images.)

There's another, soldier this time judging by his redcoat, in the voting scene of the same set with what could be a hook on his left hand but shhhhhh we don't want that info getting out ;o)

3 of 4 The Polling

May as well have the set, 1 0f 4 An Election Entertainment

2 of 4 Canvassing for Votes

Got to see the set and loads of other Hogarth paintings at the Tate a few years back, the detail is amazing and prob'ly all hidden(To us now at least) messages and politics.

Edited April 17, 2012 by Grymm

[Swashbuckler 1700]

A wooden-legged sailor! Just in time for the second half of my article on period amputation which will include bits on prosthetic limbs. (I appreciate you folks keeping me abreast of these things. )

I think it's interesting that the red top of the tricorn has a sheen. You wouldn't expect that of a regular tri-corn, I think. But I may be reading too much into Hogarth's use of shading. (It's too bad Hogarth isn't alive today to draw images of re-enactors studying and interpreting his images.)

There's another, soldier this time judging by his redcoat, in the voting scene of the same set with what could be a hook on his left hand but shhhhhh we don't want that info getting out ;o)

3 of 4 The Polling

May as well have the set, 1 0f 4 An Election Entertainment

2 of 4 Canvassing for Votes

Got to see the set and loads of other Hogarth paintings at the Tate a few years back, the detail is amazing and prob'ly all hidden(To us now at least)

messages and politics.

There was already conversation of that first pic in "hand hooks" head

In last pic that man seems to be one eyed man ( one smoking there).

Nice kerchief in the II image there. In picture III there is also waistcoat without sleeves hmm...( just wondering stuff for other topics )

Edited April 17, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Fox]

There's another, soldier this time judging by his redcoat, in the voting scene of the same set with what could be a hook on his left hand but shhhhhh we don't want that info getting out ;o)

I suspect he's a Chelsea Pensioner.

Got to see the set and loads of other Hogarth paintings at the Tate a few years back, the detail is amazing and prob'ly all hidden(To us now at least) messages and politics.

I've looked at the Chairing of the Member countless times, and I can't shake the idea that the monkey is meant to be a French soldier. It's a very French looking uniform, and it's not unheard of for satirists to be rude about Johnny Furriners, but I can't for the life of me see the relevance of the joke.

[Mission]

I've looked at the Chairing of the Member countless times, and I can't shake the idea that the monkey is meant to be a French soldier. It's a very French looking uniform, and it's not unheard of for satirists to be rude about Johnny Furriners, but I can't for the life of me see the relevance of the joke.

Note that he appears to be riding another animal - possibly a bear? - that is about to be cudgeled by a clown for nosing about in the clown's donkey's basket. (Did you follow all that?)

There's another, soldier this time judging by his redcoat, in the voting scene of the same set with what could be a hook on his left hand but shhhhhh we don't want that info getting out ;o)

I suspect he's a Chelsea Pensioner.

Actually, SB1700 pointed him out in another thread and I liked him so much that I sliced him out of that busy image and used him in the opening page of my web page on amputation (with due credit to Hogarth, natch.)

[Grymm]

Drifting OT to amputees (One of they moderator types couls split it off if they fancied)

Greenwich Pensioner (Naval Hospital) both late 18th early 19thC

Prosthetic noses 17th or 18thC Science Museum London

17thC false hand science museum

More stuff that may be of interest to Barber Surgeon types here http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/onlinestuff/museum_objects/science_and_art_of_medicine.aspx

[Swashbuckler 1700]

When we try to find out what the RN caps were like I think it is good to think what kind of they probably weren’t. It quite obvious that they probably had no really big brim or large peak since those would be bad in windy sea ( I have constant problems (when it is windy) with my cap which has a large point forward peak and it gets constantly in the way and makes my field of vision narrower not to menatin that wind can blow it off).

I guess that some close to little Montero or grenadier cap style would be likely or perhaps just a round cap without anything additional (so no peaks or brim). I admit that I am not expert but…..

like in this 20th C vision

I AM NOT USING GAME AS A SOURCE but looking what other people have made this is also likely design

18th C ligth infantry in the game Empire Total war it is similar than what threre is in here

I wonder what is this cap in this 1750 image.

Not the man with tricorn but the man with other hat.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[peglegstrick]

Mission......great article on amputation....gave me thr hebie jebies though...thank god they had me under when they got me leg.....

[Swashbuckler 1700]

I saw this and I think it might tell something (click it to get is bigger)

"Shipping Scene in the Lower Thames, about 1720"

http://collections.r...ects/12487.html

The men dressed in gray and red (slops? perhaps) on the nearest boat. Some of those are something that might be unfaced leather caps with white tread. Those hat look rather unclear but they could be leather caps. Most of them seem to have a form upturned peaks like seen in some visions but it it is unclear. But anyway those are -in my opinion really uncool.... well history often is.....

Edited December 8, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Swashbuckler 1700]

I saw this and I think it might tell something (click it to get is bigger)

"Shipping Scene in the Lower Thames, about 1720"

http://collections.r...ects/12487.html

The men dressed in gray and red (slops? perhaps) on the nearest boat. Some of those are something that might be unfaced leather caps with white tread. Those hat look rather unclear but they could be leather caps. Most of them seem to have a form upturned peaks like seen in some visions but it it is unclear. But anyway those are -in my opinion really uncool.... well history often is.....

on the other hand

Those might be some other boatsmen than navy. The boat don’t seem to be ordinary and its reminds me of some leisure crafts. So perhaps not navy men at all.

They reminds me of this picture of seaman (it is modern but it represents 18th century seaman)

and this (A Seaman, assigned to Barge duty, by Dominic Serres, mid-late 18th century)

So those men in the painting seem to be a part of some barge crew rather than the navy

Edited December 9, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Swashbuckler 1700]

I saw this and I think it might tell something (click it to get is bigger)

"Shipping Scene in the Lower Thames, about 1720"

http://collections.r...ects/12487.html

The men dressed in gray and red (slops? perhaps) on the nearest boat. Some of those are something that might be unfaced leather caps with white tread. Those hat look rather unclear but they could be leather caps. Most of them seem to have a form upturned peaks like seen in some visions but it it is unclear. But anyway those are -in my opinion really uncool.... well history often is.....

on the other hand

Those might be some other boatsmen than navy. The boat don’t seem to be ordinary and its reminds me of some leisure crafts. So perhaps not navy men at all.

They reminds me of this picture of seaman (it is modern but it represents 18th century seaman)

and this (A Seaman, assigned to Barge duty, by Dominic Serres, mid-late 18th century)

So those men in the painting seem to be a part of some barge crew rather than the navy

Reading the description it seems even more unlikely that those men aboard the nearest boat would have nothing to do with the navy. They have gray coats but that's might be just an coincident. The boat is not jolly-boat and the navy ship(in the middle) is just arriving there "a warship announces its arrival with guns" also the men aboard the navy ship looks quite much different. I think those men aboard the nearest boat are just parts of some barge crew…. But there is a form of sailor hats still that can be notified while thinking of leather caps.

Edited December 9, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[PoD]

I thought that maybe they were like the leather hat on this figure (19th century but in an 18th century style) but with an outer covering of red cotton:

http://www.cowanauctions.com/auctions/item.aspx?ItemId=26372

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Well I have found this portrait of a Greenwich pensioner in 1709

Might that cap be made from leather?

Edited January 31, 2013 by Swashbuckler 1700