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Leather Capps faced with Red Cotton, and lined wit


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Alright, I'm gonna mention PotC AWE in twill. But it is only as reference... Boot Strap wears a cap that doesn't look knit, but can't be certain if it is leather. Has anybody seen anything like it for the GAoP?

Thanks

Conceptual Simplicity, Structural Complexity, Achieves a Greater State of humanity.

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Maybe I've missed something. I do know I can't get John's pics, but I wouldn't get a leather cap out of Foxe's example. It appears to be a red cloth cap with the bottom folded up to expose the tan lining. Someone mentioned the workmen's cap, and I think it's a variation of that. Hard leather caps certainly existed in the military in this period, but I can't see a sailor wearing one. I've been wrong before.

Capt. William Bones

Then he rapped on the door with a bit of stick like a handspike that he carried, and when my father appeared, called roughly for a glass of rum. This, when it was brought to him, he drank slowly, like a connoisseur, lingering on the taste, and still looking about him at the cliffs and up at our signboard.

"This is a handy cove," says he, at length; " and a pleasant sittyated grog-shop. Much company, mate?"

My father told him no, very little company, the more was the pity.

"Well, then," said he, "this is the berth for me."

Proprietor of Flags of Fortune.

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The slop contract mentioned a leather cap. Don't know if it's a leather monmouth or something else... What about a Phrygian(Liberty Cap), they've been around a long time but their due to their meaning would they be "used" by the british?

Conceptual Simplicity, Structural Complexity, Achieves a Greater State of humanity.

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  • 4 years later...

Does anyone have the slightest idea of what these could be?

Foxe has a picuture on his site that has a sailor with a red cap/hat.

85753949.jpg

Think its close???

GoF

To wake up old tread

It is possible that the artists is not P. Monamy at all see this page http://www.cichw.net/pmodds1.html

There is actually not date known as far as I know and many books and web pages say either early/ mid/late 18th c and those which dare to guess date say either 1730 or 1760.

So is that leather cap why not but I think it is quite unlikely…

Educate me if needed… ;)

In one book there is interesting view of those Rn caps. see this tread (where it is as offtopic stuff :P ) https://pyracy.com/in...s/page__st__180

There is view of them as quite grenadier cap like caps which are quite similar to this later cap from 1770s http://www.hmsrichmo...bargeseaman.jpg

that style is still just a one possibility.....

Edited by Swashbuckler 1700

"I have not yet Begun To Fight!"
John Paul Jones

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I always wondered if the red crown on the hat worn by the peglegged sailor in the foreground of Hogarth's Chairing The Member was one of these red faced leather caps.....'s odd, a white laced black brim but a red crown, heigh ho!

Clicking on the pic should bring up a hoooooge version.

William_Hogarth_029.jpg

Edited by Grymm

Lambourne! Lambourne! Stop that man pissin' on the hedge, it's imported.

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I always wondered if the red crown on the hat worn by the peglegged sailor in the foreground of Hogarth's Chairing The Member was one of these red faced leather caps.....'s odd, a white laced black brim but a red crown, heigh ho!

Clicking on the pic should bring up a hoooooge version.

William_Hogarth_029.jpg

To me it is just a tricorn with red crown. Nice wooden legged sailor ( clothing and cane reveals that hi is a sailor. Are those slop trousers?) Note that half naked man on the left has similar hat with orange cockade....

"I have not yet Begun To Fight!"
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To me it is just a tricorn with red crown. Nice wooden legged sailor ( clothing and cane reveals that hi is a sailor. Are those slop trousers?) Note that half naked man on the left has similar hat with orange cockade....

Could be just that, a cocked hat with a red crown but I've never come across mentions of different coloured crown in all my hat research(which is quite a bit) plus it's on a sailor, me I'm not leaning one way or t'other just flagging it up as a possible.

Both are red cockades, the other candidate's supporters wear a blue one, the red and blue cockades are a common theme in all 4 of the Election Series.

In Hogarth it's not just sailors who carry cudgels/heavy walking sticks, they are the 'weapon of choice' of a lot of his country and poor folk, in fact cudgeling was a common past-time/sport in the late 17thC & 18thC the basic idea being to draw an inch of blood, for a win.

From a newspaper of June 1721 about the Broughton Green Fair

"the Earl of Stafford has been pleas'd to give a hat, Value one Guinea, to be play'd for on Monday at Cudgels........"

Other entertainments were wrestling, horse racing and a ladies smock race. an excuse for blokes to see women running in their shifts in the hope that one would fall and flash her bits =o)

Lambourne! Lambourne! Stop that man pissin' on the hedge, it's imported.

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From a newspaper of June 1721 about the Broughton Green Fair

"the Earl of Stafford has been pleas'd to give a hat, Value one Guinea, to be play'd for on Monday at Cudgels........"

I wonder what colour it was...

Foxe

"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707


ETFox.co.uk

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A wooden-legged sailor! Just in time for the second half of my article on period amputation which will include bits on prosthetic limbs. (I appreciate you folks keeping me abreast of these things. ;) )

I think it's interesting that the red top of the tricorn has a sheen. You wouldn't expect that of a regular tri-corn, I think. But I may be reading too much into Hogarth's use of shading. (It's too bad Hogarth isn't alive today to draw images of re-enactors studying and interpreting his images.)

Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?"

John: "I don't know."

Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate."

Mission_banner5.JPG

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To me it is just a tricorn with red crown. Nice wooden legged sailor ( clothing and cane reveals that hi is a sailor. Are those slop trousers?) Note that half naked man on the left has similar hat with orange cockade....

Could be just that, a cocked hat with a red crown but I've never come across mentions of different coloured crown in all my hat research(which is quite a bit) plus it's on a sailor, me I'm not leaning one way or t'other just flagging it up as a possible.

Both are red cockades, the other candidate's supporters wear a blue one, the red and blue cockades are a common theme in all 4 of the Election Series.

In Hogarth it's not just sailors who carry cudgels/heavy walking sticks, they are the 'weapon of choice' of a lot of his country and poor folk, in fact cudgeling was a common past-time/sport in the late 17thC & 18thC the basic idea being to draw an inch of blood, for a win.

From a newspaper of June 1721 about the Broughton Green Fair

"the Earl of Stafford has been pleas'd to give a hat, Value one Guinea, to be play'd for on Monday at Cudgels........"

Other entertainments were wrestling, horse racing and a ladies smock race. an excuse for blokes to see women running in their shifts in the hope that one would fall and flash her bits =o)

See it is tricorn with cockade and all. It has the sides of tricorn but indeed red crown.... odd.... Thanks for the pic ;)

Edited by Swashbuckler 1700

"I have not yet Begun To Fight!"
John Paul Jones

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Grymm -

That's one heck of a busy painting with a lot going on... ya' need to focus in on a small bit at a time to try and figure out what all is happening.

I'm glad that Mission has captured the 'musket monkey' already in his photo. The fiddler reminds me of Capn'Rob. :D

Jas. Hook ;)

"Born on an island, live on an island... the sea has always been in my blood." Jas. Hook

"You can't direct the wind . . . but . . . you can adjust the sails."

"Don't eat the chickens with writing on their beaks." Governor Sawney

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A wooden-legged sailor! Just in time for the second half of my article on period amputation which will include bits on prosthetic limbs. (I appreciate you folks keeping me abreast of these things. ;) )

I think it's interesting that the red top of the tricorn has a sheen. You wouldn't expect that of a regular tri-corn, I think. But I may be reading too much into Hogarth's use of shading. (It's too bad Hogarth isn't alive today to draw images of re-enactors studying and interpreting his images.)

There's another, soldier this time judging by his redcoat, in the voting scene of the same set with what could be a hook on his left hand but shhhhhh we don't want that info getting out ;o)

3 of 4 The Polling

William_Hogarth_031.jpg

May as well have the set, 1 0f 4 An Election Entertainment

William_Hogarth_028.jpg

2 of 4 Canvassing for Votes

Painting+Series+electoral+cycle+scene+Election+Propaganda-1024x768-11395.jpg

Got to see the set and loads of other Hogarth paintings at the Tate a few years back, the detail is amazing and prob'ly all hidden(To us now at least) messages and politics.

Edited by Grymm

Lambourne! Lambourne! Stop that man pissin' on the hedge, it's imported.

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A wooden-legged sailor! Just in time for the second half of my article on period amputation which will include bits on prosthetic limbs. (I appreciate you folks keeping me abreast of these things. ;) )

I think it's interesting that the red top of the tricorn has a sheen. You wouldn't expect that of a regular tri-corn, I think. But I may be reading too much into Hogarth's use of shading. (It's too bad Hogarth isn't alive today to draw images of re-enactors studying and interpreting his images.)

There's another, soldier this time judging by his redcoat, in the voting scene of the same set with what could be a hook on his left hand but shhhhhh we don't want that info getting out ;o)

3 of 4 The Polling

William_Hogarth_031.jpg

May as well have the set, 1 0f 4 An Election Entertainment

William_Hogarth_028.jpg

2 of 4 Canvassing for Votes

Painting+Series+electoral+cycle+scene+Election+Propaganda-1024x768-11395.jpg

Got to see the set and loads of other Hogarth paintings at the Tate a few years back, the detail is amazing and prob'ly all hidden(To us now at least)

messages and politics.

There was already conversation of that first pic in "hand hooks" head

In last pic that man seems to be one eyed man ( one smoking there).

Nice kerchief in the II image there. In picture III there is also waistcoat without sleeves hmm...( just wondering stuff for other topics ;))

Edited by Swashbuckler 1700

"I have not yet Begun To Fight!"
John Paul Jones

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There's another, soldier this time judging by his redcoat, in the voting scene of the same set with what could be a hook on his left hand but shhhhhh we don't want that info getting out ;o)

I suspect he's a Chelsea Pensioner.

Got to see the set and loads of other Hogarth paintings at the Tate a few years back, the detail is amazing and prob'ly all hidden(To us now at least) messages and politics.

I've looked at the Chairing of the Member countless times, and I can't shake the idea that the monkey is meant to be a French soldier. It's a very French looking uniform, and it's not unheard of for satirists to be rude about Johnny Furriners, but I can't for the life of me see the relevance of the joke.

Foxe

"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707


ETFox.co.uk

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I've looked at the Chairing of the Member countless times, and I can't shake the idea that the monkey is meant to be a French soldier. It's a very French looking uniform, and it's not unheard of for satirists to be rude about Johnny Furriners, but I can't for the life of me see the relevance of the joke.

Note that he appears to be riding another animal - possibly a bear? - that is about to be cudgeled by a clown for nosing about in the clown's donkey's basket. (Did you follow all that?)

There's another, soldier this time judging by his redcoat, in the voting scene of the same set with what could be a hook on his left hand but shhhhhh we don't want that info getting out ;o)

I suspect he's a Chelsea Pensioner.

Actually, SB1700 pointed him out in another thread and I liked him so much that I sliced him out of that busy image and used him in the opening page of my web page on amputation (with due credit to Hogarth, natch.)

Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?"

John: "I don't know."

Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate."

Mission_banner5.JPG

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Drifting OT to amputees (One of they moderator types couls split it off if they fancied)

Greenwich Pensioner (Naval Hospital) both late 18th early 19thC

PY3329.jpg

large.jpg

Prosthetic noses 17th or 18thC Science Museum London

10287292.jpg

17thC false hand science museum

10287294.jpg

More stuff that may be of interest to Barber Surgeon types here http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/onlinestuff/museum_objects/science_and_art_of_medicine.aspx

Lambourne! Lambourne! Stop that man pissin' on the hedge, it's imported.

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  • 4 weeks later...

When we try to find out what the RN caps were like I think it is good to think what kind of they probably weren’t. It quite obvious that they probably had no really big brim or large peak since those would be bad in windy sea ( I have constant problems (when it is windy) with my cap which has a large point forward peak and it gets constantly in the way and makes my field of vision narrower not to menatin that wind can blow it off).

I guess that some close to little Montero or grenadier cap style would be likely or perhaps just a round cap without anything additional (so no peaks or brim). I admit that I am not expert but…..

like in this 20th C vision

1706Contract.jpg

I AM NOT USING GAME AS A SOURCE but looking what other people have made this is also likely design

18th C ligth infantry in the game Empire Total war it is similar than what threre is in here

Light_infantry.jpg

I wonder what is this cap in this 1750 image.

Not the man with tricorn but the man with other hat.

394684_full_458x718.jpg

Edited by Swashbuckler 1700

"I have not yet Begun To Fight!"
John Paul Jones

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  • 6 months later...

I saw this and I think it might tell something (click it to get is bigger)

"Shipping Scene in the Lower Thames, about 1720"

http://collections.r...ects/12487.html

large.jpg

The men dressed in gray and red (slops? perhaps) on the nearest boat. Some of those are something that might be unfaced leather caps with white tread. Those hat look rather unclear but they could be leather caps. Most of them seem to have a form upturned peaks like seen in some visions but it it is unclear. But anyway those are -in my opinion really uncool.... well history often is.....

Edited by Swashbuckler 1700

"I have not yet Begun To Fight!"
John Paul Jones

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I saw this and I think it might tell something (click it to get is bigger)

"Shipping Scene in the Lower Thames, about 1720"

http://collections.r...ects/12487.html

large.jpg

The men dressed in gray and red (slops? perhaps) on the nearest boat. Some of those are something that might be unfaced leather caps with white tread. Those hat look rather unclear but they could be leather caps. Most of them seem to have a form upturned peaks like seen in some visions but it it is unclear. But anyway those are -in my opinion really uncool.... well history often is.....

on the other hand

Those might be some other boatsmen than navy. The boat don’t seem to be ordinary and its reminds me of some leisure crafts. So perhaps not navy men at all.

They reminds me of this picture of seaman (it is modern but it represents 18th century seaman)

5021679416_facb286799_z.jpg

and this (A Seaman, assigned to Barge duty, by Dominic Serres, mid-late 18th century)

bargeseaman.jpg

So those men in the painting seem to be a part of some barge crew rather than the navy

Edited by Swashbuckler 1700

"I have not yet Begun To Fight!"
John Paul Jones

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I saw this and I think it might tell something (click it to get is bigger)

"Shipping Scene in the Lower Thames, about 1720"

http://collections.r...ects/12487.html

large.jpg

The men dressed in gray and red (slops? perhaps) on the nearest boat. Some of those are something that might be unfaced leather caps with white tread. Those hat look rather unclear but they could be leather caps. Most of them seem to have a form upturned peaks like seen in some visions but it it is unclear. But anyway those are -in my opinion really uncool.... well history often is.....

on the other hand

Those might be some other boatsmen than navy. The boat don’t seem to be ordinary and its reminds me of some leisure crafts. So perhaps not navy men at all.

They reminds me of this picture of seaman (it is modern but it represents 18th century seaman)

5021679416_facb286799_z.jpg

and this (A Seaman, assigned to Barge duty, by Dominic Serres, mid-late 18th century)

bargeseaman.jpg

So those men in the painting seem to be a part of some barge crew rather than the navy

Reading the description it seems even more unlikely that those men aboard the nearest boat would have nothing to do with the navy. They have gray coats but that's might be just an coincident. The boat is not jolly-boat and the navy ship(in the middle) is just arriving there "a warship announces its arrival with guns" also the men aboard the navy ship looks quite much different. I think those men aboard the nearest boat are just parts of some barge crew…. But there is a form of sailor hats still that can be notified while thinking of leather caps.

Edited by Swashbuckler 1700

"I have not yet Begun To Fight!"
John Paul Jones

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