Captain Midnight Posted September 16, 2005 Share Posted September 16, 2005 Ahoy mates! Does anyone know of a place where I might buy a black rosette cockade to adorn my tricorn? I have seen several sites with hats for sale, such as Jarnigan, Jas. Townsend, etc., but I'm looking for somewhere that will sell me just the simple round cockade with a pewter button. I wonder if there is anyone out there who makes them? Heck, if I had a pattern or some instructions, I'd try making one myself! Anyway, if anyone can help, I'd be obligin' to ye! "Now then, me bullies! Would you rather do the gallows dance, and hang in chains 'til the crows pluck your eyes from your rotten skulls? Or would you feel the roll of a stout ship beneath your feet again?" ---Captain William Kidd--- (1945) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirate Petee Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 Try this place. http://www.najecki.com/repro/Hats.html Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Midnight Posted September 17, 2005 Author Share Posted September 17, 2005 Many thanks, Petee, mate! I have dispatched an enquiry to them this eve! "Now then, me bullies! Would you rather do the gallows dance, and hang in chains 'til the crows pluck your eyes from your rotten skulls? Or would you feel the roll of a stout ship beneath your feet again?" ---Captain William Kidd--- (1945) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman of Fortune Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 Out of curiousity, does anyone have a link to a site with a period picture (GAoP) of a hat with a cockade? GoF Come aboard my pirate re-enacting site http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/ Where you will find lots of information on building your authentic Pirate Impression! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Midnight Posted September 17, 2005 Author Share Posted September 17, 2005 GoF, Here are two period depictions of men wearing a cocked hat with a cockade. The first is the famous engraving of Blackbeard from 1734, the second is an engraving showing Mr. John Beard in the character of the captain of a Man-of-War, 1736. "Now then, me bullies! Would you rather do the gallows dance, and hang in chains 'til the crows pluck your eyes from your rotten skulls? Or would you feel the roll of a stout ship beneath your feet again?" ---Captain William Kidd--- (1945) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portagee Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 Aye, and both look to be more of a tied bow rather than round cockade. These do not even look to be the bow cockade that is rectangle and simply pulled together in the middle to give a bow like appearance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman of Fortune Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 Not that I am splitting hairs... but 1736 is a wee bit out of the "golden age". Styles of fashion in general start to change by 1720, and the end of the Golden Age could probably be dabated for 1725, but I think 1730 is definately out. Blackbeard himself was killed in 1718, so the posted picture is almost 20 years afterwards.... GoF Come aboard my pirate re-enacting site http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/ Where you will find lots of information on building your authentic Pirate Impression! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Midnight Posted September 17, 2005 Author Share Posted September 17, 2005 Very true, gentlemen, the both of you. Point taken. So then, what form would a cockade have taken for this period, if any were worn at all? I would like to put something on my hat to make it less plain, other than the lacing used to "cock" it. "Now then, me bullies! Would you rather do the gallows dance, and hang in chains 'til the crows pluck your eyes from your rotten skulls? Or would you feel the roll of a stout ship beneath your feet again?" ---Captain William Kidd--- (1945) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portagee Posted September 18, 2005 Share Posted September 18, 2005 Captain Midnight, to be sure, the second of the engravings you posted is a fine look at a cocade style that be the first I have noticed of such. Or at lest so intently gazed upon. Intersting, perhaps one for Captain Twill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman of Fortune Posted September 18, 2005 Share Posted September 18, 2005 Hey... I am not trying to piss in the Hat Cockade cherios or anything like that... I am just trying to fill in my own gaps of information. Tricornes is one of those gaps. We take it a lot for granted, but since the hat was used in some form for about 100 years, I think that a few changes took place and I am trying to sort out what they were. One thing I am pretty certain about is that hat blocks during our period (and I think up 1800 or so) were round not oval. Most of the hats made today (reprod) are made on oval hat blanks. I have found a source for tricorns made on a round hat block... but they are really pircey. The cockade search continues.... GoF Come aboard my pirate re-enacting site http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/ Where you will find lots of information on building your authentic Pirate Impression! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Midnight Posted September 18, 2005 Author Share Posted September 18, 2005 Captain Midnight, to be sure, the second of the engravings you posted is a fine look at a cocade style that be the first I have noticed of such. Or at lest so intently gazed upon. Intersting, perhaps one for Captain Twill? Aye, Portagee, mate, it is indeed an interesting style, and one that I too, have never truly noticed before. The problem might be, however, that Gentleman of Fortune is correct in his point that the engravings were actually done years after the period they represent, and although the difference in years is not that great, it is very true that styles can change much in that short of a span. So they may or may not be accurate. We don't know whether perhaps the artist was drawing the subject from the styles of the past (for him), or rendering it in the fashion of his own time, which was very common for artists to do in those days. But I will still agree that the cockade is very interesting, and not at all like the rosette or alliance type cockades used later in the Revolution years. It does indeed appear to be a bow, or at least "loops" of ribbon, as you pointed out previously. I wonder if it would be feasible to use one like it, until more evidence is found one way or the other? Or would that be "farby"? What say ye, GoF? "Now then, me bullies! Would you rather do the gallows dance, and hang in chains 'til the crows pluck your eyes from your rotten skulls? Or would you feel the roll of a stout ship beneath your feet again?" ---Captain William Kidd--- (1945) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman of Fortune Posted September 18, 2005 Share Posted September 18, 2005 Well since I am not the Patron Saint of re-enacting I have no control over what is done or isn't done with Pirate "re-enacting". And I am not sure that cockades were not in use in th e1690-1720 period, as I have not honestly looked that hard.... yet. Maybe Foxe, Black John, and Hawkyns might have something to add here. I have a pretty decent photo-collage of tricorne development that I got from someones website a while back, if I get permission to use it, I will post it up. GoF Come aboard my pirate re-enacting site http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/ Where you will find lots of information on building your authentic Pirate Impression! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portagee Posted September 18, 2005 Share Posted September 18, 2005 My limited search has not turned up much but this may be of interest. It seemed to be the most complete - not sayin' much. cockades Cockades as they are best known being a symbol of national or political alliance, or for regimental colors. I may be wrong but, not something a pirate would have been inclined to show allegiance to? Perhaps nationality more than the others. But as they say, "the meanings of the various styles were not entirely consistent, and varied somewhat by region and period." I apologize Captain Midnight for av'in more question than any sort of answers, but I question what me own cockade could be say 'bout me. Why for all I know it could be talking like a parrot to people and I knows it not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portagee Posted September 18, 2005 Share Posted September 18, 2005 Aye, if I might be peggin' your sirs pardon with one more thought. I seem to recall the cocked hat did not come about till the brim of the muskateer hat had grown so wide as needin' to be cocked up. And the cocked brim needin' an aid to stay that way. thus the cock aid - cockade. I believe this was not until the late 1600's and a man of any station would likely had feathers or fancy trim or both as adornment. If I am very wrong av mercy upon me. I haply await to be corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mary Meg Anne Posted September 18, 2005 Share Posted September 18, 2005 Well, I be sayin, sez I, that ye procure fer yeself a bit o fancy ribbon what ye be taken a likin to. Unroll it, gather it up,& fan it out as ye would wit a deck o cards. Then ye plaster it ta the side o yer hat wid a hot glue gun......... ......not ta be oppositional or anyting.......but I yam a pyrate. ....( & proud proffesional costumer to the entertainment industry) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Midnight Posted September 18, 2005 Author Share Posted September 18, 2005 Aye, 'tis true that cockades were used to show an alliance of some sort, however, in me own case, bein' a pirate an' all, I have no particular alliance with anyone or any country, although England is where me persona hails from. Bein' one of the Bretheren, however, has alienated me from any home but the sea...to me, my cockade is simply a fancy doo-dad to dress me hat up with... Portagee, that is some very good information ye've uncovered, mate, and gives much food for thought. Mad Mary Meg Anne, that sounds about like what I will do, lass, only with a pewter or brass button rather than glue, to be a wee trifle more authentic...I may gather me cockade in loops as shown in Blackbeard's engraving and the other, since those are the earliest representations of a cockade I've found so far. It'll probably take the vague form of a bow of sorts... "Now then, me bullies! Would you rather do the gallows dance, and hang in chains 'til the crows pluck your eyes from your rotten skulls? Or would you feel the roll of a stout ship beneath your feet again?" ---Captain William Kidd--- (1945) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman of Fortune Posted September 18, 2005 Share Posted September 18, 2005 And still... if anyone has a link to or picture of a cockade in use prior to 1734, I think we would all love to see it.... (and post pictures of your tricorn CM when you finish it!) GoF Come aboard my pirate re-enacting site http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/ Where you will find lots of information on building your authentic Pirate Impression! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Midnight Posted September 18, 2005 Author Share Posted September 18, 2005 Will do, GoF, my friend. Let's you and I continue to search for the real thing, however, and when one that is absolutely correct and authenticated is found, I'll immediately replace mine with one like it. I will indeed post pics of me hat when it is made, as a matter of fact, I'll be glad to post pics of meself in garb, when I gather enough suitable things to wear for the photo. I won't put on farb clothes just to make a photo, though...if it ain't right, I don't want it... :) "Now then, me bullies! Would you rather do the gallows dance, and hang in chains 'til the crows pluck your eyes from your rotten skulls? Or would you feel the roll of a stout ship beneath your feet again?" ---Captain William Kidd--- (1945) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portagee Posted September 18, 2005 Share Posted September 18, 2005 Ere be a French fancy I spied ye my be wantin' to set your eyes upon. Been down that street many a'time but not lookin' fer cockades, be seein' it a'new. http://www.costumes.org/history/leloir/vol...l10/20_1698.jpg Seems a bundle o' ribbon in bow fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Midnight Posted September 18, 2005 Author Share Posted September 18, 2005 Aye, a nice one, indeed! I think this is what it will take to find what we are looking for: just keep searching through the period engravings and such that we do have. There's bound to be something. My problem is, many of them are rather blurry or fuzzy, and me eyes ain't what they used to be! "Now then, me bullies! Would you rather do the gallows dance, and hang in chains 'til the crows pluck your eyes from your rotten skulls? Or would you feel the roll of a stout ship beneath your feet again?" ---Captain William Kidd--- (1945) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Midnight Posted September 18, 2005 Author Share Posted September 18, 2005 Portagee, if'n ye don't mind me asking, where do ye hail from, lad? Ye seem to be a kindred spirit with a keen eye for historical detail... an admirable trait, indeed! "Now then, me bullies! Would you rather do the gallows dance, and hang in chains 'til the crows pluck your eyes from your rotten skulls? Or would you feel the roll of a stout ship beneath your feet again?" ---Captain William Kidd--- (1945) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portagee Posted September 19, 2005 Share Posted September 19, 2005 ARRR! Sink Me! But how I hate when this happens ta me. But at least I be able to correct meself. Now those o' ya tha knew better pick ya selves up off o' tha deck and stop yer lafin' I comment I made "And the cocked brim needin' an aid to stay that way. thus the cock aid - cockade. " I here by amend as ta it's origin. (in bed unable ta sleep avin' a feelin' thar be something not right about that) It seems it be thus : [Alteration of obsolete cockard from French cocarde from Old French coquarde, feminine of coquard vain, cocky from coq cock; as well as :A tilting or jaunty turn upward a jaunty or alert manner: To raise in preparation to throw or hit: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman of Fortune Posted September 19, 2005 Share Posted September 19, 2005 I leave for just a few minutes and there is a flurry of posts.... That is an interesting drawing you posted, but its difficult to determine the source... is a "period" drawing, or a modern drawing of someones interpretation of what 1698 French fashion was like. To me it looks like the later. Do you have any more infor on the jpg you link too? GoF Come aboard my pirate re-enacting site http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/ Where you will find lots of information on building your authentic Pirate Impression! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjohn Posted September 19, 2005 Share Posted September 19, 2005 And still... if anyone has a link to or picture of a cockade in use prior to 1734, I think we would all love to see it....(and post pictures of your tricorn CM when you finish it!) GoF I posted some from Nicole's site www.kipar.org the other day, over in the hat thread. I did some studying on the subject late last night. From what I've seen, cockades can take the form of a ribbon, ala RevWar, or a big droopy thing that looks kinda like a bow. I haven't seen a round one yet, but I've only just started looking. I imagine there must be one out there somewhere... Hmm... remind me to wake up before I start writing. I posted some the other day, somewhere around here! I believe one was a Watteau, circa 1710. My Home on the Web The Pirate Brethren Gallery Dreams are the glue that holds reality together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman of Fortune Posted September 19, 2005 Share Posted September 19, 2005 Damn my eyes... is that thing on the 1696 picture a cockade? It kind of looks like a plume (or something that is attached on the crown and dripping over?) And the 1710 pic. Are you sure he's not coming back from a late night party with some sorty of 18th C lampshade on his head? Gof Come aboard my pirate re-enacting site http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/ Where you will find lots of information on building your authentic Pirate Impression! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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