Grenades in Naval Warfare of the GAoP

[Captain Midnight]

Ahoy Mates,

I have been studying some photos of original period grenades that have been found in wrecks and such, and would like to ask for some advice. How could I replicate one of these grenades for display purposes so that it would look like the real thing? In these uneasy days of our modern world, such an endeavor might be eyed suspiciously, but my intent is to build a nicely made dummy, that people could look at and hold, but would be completely harmless. I think the main problem would be with the body of the grenade itself. Most I have seen consist of a hollow iron sphere, much like our modern military "baseball" grenades, with a wooden plug and fuse. How could I make the sphere? I had thought to fill it with sawdust or sand to simulate blackpowder, and to handcarve a wooden plug for it. And one last question: when brought out for battle, how were they carried by the individual sailor? In a haversack over the shoulder, or a specially made cartridge box of some sort? Any thoughts?

[Fox]

There was a discussion a while back about how to make re-enactment grenades that were safe to use, but the discussion was about how to make them safe for throwing at people...

You could consider ceramic grenades, which were also used. I asked my grandmother, an amateur potter, to make me some a few years back, so she used the only clay she had spare - porcelain!

There is a picture, oft reprinted, from the 1672 "Travaux de Mars" which shows a grenadier with a large satchel full of grenades on his shoulder. On the other hand, at sea it seems more likely that the men were only issued with one or two (the "window" for throwing grenades in a boarding action would have been fairly small), so would they have needed anything at all to carry them in?

[blackjohn]

I believe we hit one both: re-enacting grenades, and mock-ups of actual grenades. I know Greg and I and others on the piratebrethren mail list have talked about it, and I believe Greg actual found someone who made hollow iron sphere of the appropriate size.

Hey GoF, are you listening?

Someone could try doing a search for grenade or grenado under... Plunder I think it was...

As for carrying, as I recall they also would put them in a bucket. But I don't remember if that's early or later. I'd have to re-read Border's Away.

EDIT:

https://pyracy.com/forums/index.php?showtop...3536&hl=grenade

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Well, fortunately, hollow iron balls with 3/8th inch holes in them are not illegal in the US.... yet.

I have been working on having these made overseas for some time, but kind of dropped the ball and have not done anything in a while.

As I posted in the other thread... I did score one from e-bay UK a while back as it was mis-titled and the seller really didn't know what he had...

I ordered a Hand Mortar from "The Rifle Shop" in November, and they say (last week) that it was shipped.

I will post more when it comes in.

weapons

[Captain Midnight]

Thanks for your input, Mates. So, what is wrong with the dummy made from a baseball grenade? (other than being steel instead of cast iron)

[Gentleman of Fortune]

I don't think there would be anything "wrong" with one made from a converted baseball grenade. If you fill it with concrete you might even simulate the weight of the thing.

My problem has always been, how do you make one out of a baseball grenade without making it look like it was made from a baseball grenade. I will admit that I am a little obsessive about things... maybe I need medication.

As has been mentioned in the other thread, they vary in size but about 3 inches would be a good starting point.

GoF

[Captain Midnight]

Ahoy GoF!

Well, the trick would be to remove the trigger and fuse assembly (obviously), and then you would need to cut off the neck of the thing with either a hacksaw or an angle grinder, leaving a nice, simple hole in the top of the orb. Next, I would "texture" the outer shell of steel to remove some of its smoothness and simulate cast iron. This could be done a number of ways, such as burying it in the ground and leaving for several months to rust, or you could (very carefully) texture the outside by spraying with acid to pit the metal. One would need to be extremely cautious with this method, however, as acid is very dangerous stuff. Next, clean the metal thoroughly once you have achieved your desired level of texture, and then spray paint the orb with flat black enamel paint, or gunblue and oil might work as well.

Then it is just a matter of carving your wooden stopper and drilling it for a "fuse". Speaking of which, what would be a good substitute for the fuse, without being ignitable? Plain cotton cord, perhaps?

[Gentleman of Fortune]

OK... I will await your post with the results!

I am curious though.... as to how much folks would be willing to pay for a spot on reproduction out of cast iron.... complete with turned wooden plug/fuse?

I have been hunting down off shore sources, but its the shipping that really kills the products as those things are damn heavy!

GoF

[Sir Eric]

I guess my question would be, what is the desired end result?

Is the end product meant to be accurate in every regard (except exploding, of course) as far as size, weight, material... or is the end result simply a representation for display, not meant to be picked up for heft?

I work professionally in the theatre, (scenery and props) and my very first impulse was croquet balls. They're about the right size and solid hard wood, so they can be worked fairly easily. Any number of paint techniques will give them the cast iron appearance etc. etc. Of course, they won't be replicas but representations. But, it's a slightly different approach I thought I'd mention for what it's worth.

[MadMike]

This is one area where we'd want to err on the side of caution. The ATF could consider such an item a "destructive device" if it has the potential to be used as a weapon (potential being the availability or intention of filling it with black powder or having a real fuse).

My "grenades" are totally inert, being made of a solid material. I don't see any problem from a safety standpoint using wooden balls (you can buy such items at places like Home Depot).

From what I've read, the Whydah grenades were about 3 1/2 inches in diameter with wooden fuse wells. Any info on other artifacts?

Yours, &c.

Mike

[hitman]

A question mates? I would suppose that grenades would be made cheap in period as lets face it there was no real need for a perfect sphere or anything like that I can see you are going to be throwing this orb of death away and then it explodes so no biggy if it ain't exactly top notch work as opposed to say a cannon ball that has to fly true. Yet most of the grenades I see from the period appear to be well made and in good shape for their age so my question is WHY? A sphere isn't exactly the easiest shape to cast and this extra worksmanship seems misplaced .

[Captain Midnight]

This is one area where we'd want to err on the side of caution. The ATF could consider such an item a "destructive device" if it has the potential to be used as a weapon (potential being the availability or intention of filling it with black powder or having a real fuse).

My "grenades" are totally inert, being made of a solid material. I don't see any problem from a safety standpoint using wooden balls (you can buy such items at places like Home Depot).

From what I've read, the Whydah grenades were about 3 1/2 inches in diameter with wooden fuse wells. Any info on other artifacts?

Yours, &c.

Mike

Yeah, I see no problem with using a wooden ball as the body of your grenade, as long as it is made to look like cast iron. My original idea with the converted baseball grenade was to fill it with sand or sawdust, and glue the wooden fuse well (plug) in place. It would not have to be drilled all the way through, just deep enough to glue an inert piece of cotton cord (your "fuse") into, to give the correct appearance. The idea was to come up with a completely inert dummy that would have the right heft and appearance, and would sound like it was loaded with gunpowder if shaken, you know, if interested spectators wanted to examine one.

However, I do agree, a wooden ball could be made in the same fashion that would do the same thing, and would be much easier to obtain without any ill suspicions from anyone.

I think I will indeed craft mine from wood, and I'll post pics of my results here for you all to see when it's finished.

[Captain Midnight]

Mates,

I have tried to find 3-1/2" wooden balls for my grenade replicas, but that seems to be a non-standard size, and I have had no luck finding any. I can get 3" or 4" wooden balls, however. Which size would be better? Were grenade sizes standard in the GAoP? :angry:

[Gentleman of Fortune]

I would go for 3". Simply because the sheer heft of the thing might almost be unrealistic (for an actual iron ball) to throw. You would almost have to be a champion shot putter to throw the thing out of personal injury range if it was 4".

Don't forget to post pictures when you are done.

GoF

[Captain Midnight]

I have finished my first replica (I am building three of them), and it turned out very nicely. I started to make photos of it this morning to post here, but the batteries in my digital camera were dead. Just as soon as I can replace them I'll make the photos and post them for you all to see.

I had to use a 2-1/2" wooden ball, the store was out of 3" when I went back, but it is roughly the size of (maybe a shade smaller) a U.S. baseball grenade. I textured the surface to simulate cast iron, and hand carved a wooden "fuse plug" based on one of the grenades from the Whydah. Stay tuned, more to come...

[Fox]

So, the other day Vixen says to me "Can I throw out some of your old paperwork?", pointing at the 2ft stack of notes and photocopies that sat by my desk. About six months ago I promised to tidy them, skimmed about 5 folders' worth off the top then gave up. Long story short, I've been spending the last couple of days (and the next week at least) sorting through my notes and trying to put them into some sort of order. I've come across all sorts of exciting things, including this:

A broken grenade recovered from the wreck of HMS Dartmouth which sank off Scotland in 1690. I thought it might be of interest to you guys. I'm pretty sure the scale is in half inches (possibly centimetres), and it appears to have broken down the casting line, giving us a nice "cutaway" view.

Bloody good job she hasn't looked in the drawers yet...

[Captain Jim]

God help us all iffen ye start postin' pictures o' things ye be findin' in yer "drawers"....

Different thread, mate...way different...

[Captain Midnight]

Mates, I'm long overdue here, but I finally got some photos made of my replica grenadoes...here are two of them (I made three total) sitting in front of my replica of the cartridge box found in the wreckage of the Whydah.

These are just wooden balls that I rough-textured, hollowed out, and put a few grains of sand in (so that when shaken, it sounds like gunpowder inside), with a hand carved fuse. I based these on photos of the grenades found in the Whydah wreckage as well, and there were almost identical ones found in the wreckage of the Queen Anne's Revenge also. The third one is identical to these two, except the texture is a bit smoother, and I aged these two with a bit of "rust".

[mrwill]

Shipmates!

Nicely done Captain Midnight. I would beware of the simulated fuse that you have in your grenades however. I don't think that the originals had that type of fuse. It seems that the plugs were bored out and filled with a slow burning powder compound which made the wooden plug into a fuse. I simulate that by taking ground charcoal putting in the wooden fuse and then giving it a squirt of white glue. The glue soaks into the charcoal and hardens clear. Then cover with a piece of soft leather tied on with hemp cord.

I make mine out of surplus baseball grenades, but here is a company that sells metal hollow balls

<http://www.sharpeproducts.com/ball_hemispheres.htm>

M. Williams Esq.

Former Surgeon to his Majesty's Provincials

[MorganTyre]

Any idea what the wall thickness of the steel hollow balls on that website is? And where might I find a supply of baseball grenades? This one sounds like a fun project.

[mrwill]

Nope, sure don't. I don't think that they would be TOO thick however. You can pick up demilled baseball grenades from military surplus stores, at larger gun shows or The Sportsman's Guide. Here is the link for them,

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=205237

As I know very little about computers, I hope to get some help from a buddy and post some pictures of my simulated Hand Grenades later today.

M. Williams Esq.

Late Surgeon to his Majesty's Provincial Forces

[mrwill]

Grenades from frontGrenades from side

Here are the photos of my simulated grenades. At least I hope they are here somewhere.

M. Williams Esq.

Late Surgeon to his Majesty's Provincials

[MorganTyre]

Very nice. What did you use for the balls?

Edit - disregard. I just re-read that you use surplus grenades.

[Captain Midnight]

Shipmates!

Nicely done Captain Midnight. I would beware of the simulated fuse that you have in your grenades however. I don't think that the originals had that type of fuse. It seems that the plugs were bored out and filled with a slow burning powder compound which made the wooden plug into a fuse. I simulate that by taking ground charcoal putting in the wooden fuse and then giving it a squirt of white glue. The glue soaks into the charcoal and hardens clear. Then cover with a piece of soft leather tied on with hemp cord.

I make mine out of surplus baseball grenades, but here is a company that sells metal hollow balls

<http://www.sharpeproducts.com/ball_hemispheres.htm>

M. Williams Esq.

Former Surgeon to his Majesty's Provincials

Thanks for that little tip, mrwill. I have never understood until now exactly how the fuse worked (I didn't know if they had a piece of slow-match fuse, etc), so your information is very helpful! It will be a very small matter to just pluck the fuse out and pack the fuse "barrel" as you stated with simulated "black powder". I like your grenades, too, they are very nice, particularly the little leather protective covers.

[Pegleg Pete]

Nope, sure don't. I don't think that they would be TOO thick however. You can pick up demilled baseball grenades from military surplus stores, at larger gun shows  or The Sportsman's Guide. Here is the link for them,

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=205237

Actually, those aren't demilled surplus grenades. They're reproduction junk. Although, this may be a good use for them. They've been clogging the market for years. They aren't totally round, though. They're 2 1/4 inches wide at the midseam, and 2 1/8 wide from the bottom of the collar to the base. The top half is more flattened than the bottom half.

They have a hole in both bottom and top, which could be a problem. But, they are made of a cast iron shell, so they are quite heavy.

As to Captain Midnight's photo...very nice work. Although, the fuze plugs wouldn't have been varnished or finished in any way. Pretty much just bare wood.. And, as others have said, there wouldn't be a fuze like you show. Later on, there were fuzes added, but they were of a black, thick cord...similar to the Bickford fuze used during the early World wars.

This is my first post after lurking for a year or so. It just so happens, that I'm a collector of antique grenades, and this is right in line with my studies. Although, I'm trying to keep with the piratical frame of mind.

My mentor and good friend has a website that shows the "French Modèle 1847 Hand Grenade", which is about a century later than we are talking, but it gives you a pretty good idea. At that point, the only thing that really changed was the use of a friction igniter instead of a "fuze".

You can see it here at http://inert-ord.net/19cent/grenat/index.html.

Scroll down a little over half way down the page to see the ball grenade.

You may have to copy and paste that link into your browser, because I haven't gotten the URL links to work yet, as I'm on a Mac, and I be a newbie to this forum. Also, I will probably have to smooth things over with him if a thousand people start linking to the page.

But, as you can see, most times it's just a down and dirty construction. A plain wooden plug is more probable than a varnished one.

As to the construction and purpose of grenades, in a book by John Gibbon entitled "Artillerist's Manual" from 1859, he states that "Any kind of shell, unfit for firing either from being defective in form or solidity, may be used for the purpose."

So, basically, that means that any hollow cannon shot that was unfit to be used in a cannon was reworked to be used as a grenade. Kind of killing 2 birds with one stone. The shot was already cast, so instead of wasting it, it was used for a grenade. The average size was from a 6 pounder cannon, since the size was neither too small or too large to use. But, in reality, anything within reasonable diameter and weight could be used.

So, that's my first post. Hello mates! I may need to change my screen name in the future. It has meaning to it, but Me name ain't Pete.

Cheers

Brad...aka Peg Leg Pete