Monterey Jack Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 GACK! Oh, well said sir! Actually, if you do a search for Loyalist Arms up in Nova Scotia they offer inexpensive stage-fightable cutlasses; providing of course you are actually choreographing the piece and/or aren't bashing the snot out of them. Their 18th century American cutlass is just sweet. Real plain, as the originals were, but handles real well with minimal pitting, if any, in fights. There are about six different cutlasses, and none of them over $100. Monterey Jack "yes I am a pirate 200 years too late, the cannons don't thunder, there's nothin to plunder, I'm an over-40 victim of fate, arrivin too late.........." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 Actually, if you do a search for Loyalist Arms up in Nova Scotia they offer inexpensive stage-fightable cutlasses; providing of course you are actually choreographing the piece and/or aren't bashing the snot out of them. Their 18th century American cutlass is just sweet. Real plain, as the originals were, but handles real well with minimal pitting, if any, in fights. There are about six different cutlasses, and none of them over $100. Do they have a website, and if so do you know the link? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Midnight Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 Ahoy Mateys, I understand that some of you do some pretty regular choreographed stage fighting, and need a tough, specially designed sword made to stand up to that kind of abuse, but the truth of the matter is that any real sword whether quality hand forged or not, will become pitted along its edge if clashed against the blade of another. If you believe anything otherwise, you're seriously fooling yourselves. The expensive $500 swords will pit and ding just like any others if so abused. They're not designed to kill your opponent's sword, but rather your opponent. :) Captain Midnight Formerly known as "Gentleman Jeff" "Now then, me bullies! Would you rather do the gallows dance, and hang in chains 'til the crows pluck your eyes from your rotten skulls? Or would you feel the roll of a stout ship beneath your feet again?" ---Captain William Kidd--- (1945) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Midnight Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 Just curious as to what period of piracy did you decide on?Good luck with your cutlass! GoF Ahoy GoF, I'm sorry I didn't answer this before, I read so quickly through the posts that I must have skipped it. I have decided on the period between 1710-1715. By the way, you have a most excellent web site! Very nice indeed! Captain Midnight Formerly "Gentleman Jeff" "Now then, me bullies! Would you rather do the gallows dance, and hang in chains 'til the crows pluck your eyes from your rotten skulls? Or would you feel the roll of a stout ship beneath your feet again?" ---Captain William Kidd--- (1945) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjohn Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 If you believe anything otherwise, you're seriously fooling yourselves. The expensive $500 swords will pit and ding just like any others if so abused. Good point. A sword is a tool, and like any tool, you need to select the correct type for your purpose. If you use it, you really should be prepared for dings, or worse, a snapped tang. At $145, my Paul Chen mortuary hilt will put a nick in just about anything it has come up against, but it also gets slightly nicked. On the opposite end of the spectrum is my Museum Reps Polish karabela. At $200 ($250? $150? I forget) it gets nicks if you look at it the wrong way. Then I have an English sword, the manufacturer's name escapes me. The thing is tough as nails. But it looks so-so. I doubt I'd ever wear it, or use it, just because of its looks. Which contrasts with my $250 hunting sword from Godwin's. I love that blade. She's too pretty to risk. If I'm not buried with it, it will go to my heir. However, one observation I can make about all of my modern swords. None of them come close to the quality of steel found in any antique blade I've held. In comparison, modern repros are all very stiff. Which leads me to believe, if Old Dominion Forge is as good as they say, at the very least I'd have less fear of my blade breaking at the tang if I decided to use it for a steel-on-steel demo. My Home on the Web The Pirate Brethren Gallery Dreams are the glue that holds reality together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjohn Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 I have decided on the cutlass from DeadMenTellNoTales.com. It's style definitely fits the period, and would not look out of place... I'm curious, which one are you referring to? I can't find any that I believe are accurate to 1710-1715. I could be wrong and if I am I'd like to know. :) My Home on the Web The Pirate Brethren Gallery Dreams are the glue that holds reality together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptKonnan Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 http://www.gosea.com/loyalistarms Arrrrrrr heres the site for loyalist arms,...good lookin cutlass's and blackpowder arms.....real nice blunderbuss ARRRRRRRRR! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjohn Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 I'll agree with the statement about the firearms. At least my blunderbuss. Vera seems to be a solid weapon. Though she does tend to throw flints. But that might be fixed with a smaller flint. The cutlasses, on the other hand... I can't say that I've seen documentation that would be allow to say they are correct. The style they have listed as early/mid 18th century is dated to... 1723, I believe, and even then the documentation is somewhat hazy. My Home on the Web The Pirate Brethren Gallery Dreams are the glue that holds reality together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Midnight Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 Blackjohn, I am referring to their "Classic Pirate Cutlass", which is extremely similar to, although not exactly like the cutlass of Captain Benjamin Church, dated 1675-1678. The style could easily have still been in use (although perhaps not to a large extent) in 1715. The difference in the two periods is a small one; only 40 years...a blade could very plausibly still be very serviceable after such a span, and a good, serviceable blade would not have been discarded by a man who needed a weapon. "Now then, me bullies! Would you rather do the gallows dance, and hang in chains 'til the crows pluck your eyes from your rotten skulls? Or would you feel the roll of a stout ship beneath your feet again?" ---Captain William Kidd--- (1945) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monterey Jack Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 If you believe anything otherwise, you're seriously fooling yourselves. The expensive $500 swords will pit and ding just like any others if so abused. Good point. A sword is a tool, and like any tool, you need to select the correct type for your purpose. If you use it, you really should be prepared for dings, or worse, a snapped tang. Sorry lads, I need to weigh in here on the opposite tack. Swords may pit and ding; its a fact of stage combat that this happens, but if you're snapping tangs and denting/ chipping blades you need a refresher course in choreography. And you need a better bladesmith. The idea behind stage combat is to replicate combat, not simply plan a fight ahead of time and go at it full contact. You should be able to fight with tin and leave nary a scratch. If you're fighting and following thru on your hits you're not only endangering your partner but endangering bystanders, not to mention screwing up a perfectly good blade. Its a common misconception that if you just "read what the other guy is doing and react to it" that your choreographing. Stage combat places very little contact on the blade. Its all sold with the body and projection of the strike past the actual target. That way the audience sees a "real" fight, but the participants are in no danger at all. That's not to say you don't actually aim for the target; I hate fights where the fighters ares simply smacking blades together with no thought of an actual attack. You are aiming on target and out of distance so that if there is a foul up you can cover it thru other means. the weapon is not, however to be used as a full contact / impact weapon. By all means be prepared for moderate wear and tear on your sword, but if your breaking them and leaving V-shaped knicks in the edge, there's something wrong. Monterey Jack "yes I am a pirate 200 years too late, the cannons don't thunder, there's nothin to plunder, I'm an over-40 victim of fate, arrivin too late.........." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkyns Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 Jack, that's all fine if all you are doing is stage combat. Some of us do other things that are now coming to be recognised as Western Martial Arts. This is not a choreographed fight. You learn a series of moves and counters, just like any martial art. You practice the drills and work the sequences. Then, you go on to free bouting. It is strong combat, and much of the training concerns how to pull a blow at the last minute, but there is heavy blade contact and it is hard on blades. That is why I like Armour Class blades, which are a silicon-manganese steel and designed for that kind of contact. Blade edges are thick and rounded- nothing even close to sharp. It protects skin and other blades. There is a long fought argument about whether you should take parries on the side of the blade to minimise edge damage. It makes sense and of the many original blades I've seen, few of them were saw-toothed, so I have to believe that there was a way of doing this. I do and I teach my students the same technique. I still need to take a file to my edges and remove burrs, but they don't get serious chips or V's and I fight my blades quite hard.\ Hawkyns Cannon add dignity to what otherwise would be merely an ugly brawl I do what I do for my own reasons. I do not require anyone to follow me. I do not require society's approval for my actions or beliefs. if I am to be judged, let me be judged in the pure light of history, not the harsh glare of modern trends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 I did live unchorographed live steel combat for many years, and I used to take the blow on the flat of my blade, and would still have to grind down my sword every so often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monterey Jack Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 Jack, that's all fine if all you are doing is stage combat. Some of us do other things that are now coming to be recognised as Western Martial Arts. Hawkyns; You're preaching to the choir my friend. I am also Director of the Historical Maritime Combat Assoc, and spend much of my time training with live steel work, full contact in a variety of weapons; cutlass, knife, tomahawk, sabre and boarding pike. I started on the choreography end of things 17 years ago and find it comes in handy when approached to do demos for schools,as "pirates" without the protection used in one-on-one bouting. In much of it we don't bother to pull the blows, we just fight a hair less forceful than if we were fighting for our lives. I was addressing the mock-fight scenarios and in no way intended it to apply to historical study. However, I hope you'd agree that historical study is best done in the class-type setting and not in full costume in front of patrons and children. People who don't do what you and I do have a whole diferent view of pirate era fighting. They want the romance, the swashbuckling, the showmanship; and in most cases from my experience historical combat in protective gear, stopping to explain things as you go doesn't appeal to the general public. As to the flat vs edge parries; it's been worn thin on several other lists so I won't dwell on it overmuch here. Its my experience that the static flat parries are useless, taking time away from angulation of the blade on the return strike. Instead of static parries, I teach either re-directing parries, glancing parries (which cause the incoming blade to glance away, thus freeing yours up for riposte) or avoiding the other weapon altogether. These are always accompanied by traverses where possible, or stunted versions of inquartatas. My cutlass classes are all fought with students inside an 8 foot circle,(replicating close quarter, limited moblity combat). The blades more often than not must then be used evasively and often do not touch at all during the brief engagement. The short length of a cutlass creates the ability to use it as a long knife, sometimes even with two hands. My work with both Navaja and Bowie make it easy to use the cutlass without it ever contacting the other weapon. This, historically speaking (yet at this point theoretical) would explaing the lack of damage to actual antique pieces. This is really oversymplifying things; it's take several pages to explain my thoughts on the subject in any great detail. May I also say that's its a pleasure to read your posts on the topic and I look forward to other discussions in the future. Monterey Jack "yes I am a pirate 200 years too late, the cannons don't thunder, there's nothin to plunder, I'm an over-40 victim of fate, arrivin too late.........." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 I would like to say that with the sword I used I preferred blocking the attack with the flat of my blade because of the springiness of my weapon it would bounce the sword away, which always threw off my opponent, and would leave them wide open for several hits before they could recover. But that is why I would do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monterey Jack Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 I would like to say that with the sword I used I preferred blocking the attack with the flat of my blade because of the springiness of my weapon it would bounce the sword away, which always threw off my opponent, Everyone is going to have developed techniques that work for the style of fighting they do. I prefer not to use the flat. Does that mean it can't be used? Absolutely not. The only question you have to ask youself is, if you weren't just bouting would the style you are developing actually either A)save your life or end theirs? If you're not sure, you need to re examine the technique with someone other than you're usual sparring partner. Always test what you think you know. If you are sure, then you have made one more step in the right direction. Monterey Jack "yes I am a pirate 200 years too late, the cannons don't thunder, there's nothin to plunder, I'm an over-40 victim of fate, arrivin too late.........." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 I would say yes to the two question, I have tried the technique on close to 50 people, we had a lot of people go in and out of our guild, and the technique only failed me twice. I am a quick learner in the use of sword fighting, and was quick to get rid of what did not work and adopt what did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_MacNamara Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 One time... several months ago... there was a woman who felt her honor was slighted by the desire for me to put my family back together... she had helped me stay stable mundanely, and she took it as an insult that I wanted to patch my family back together, as she mistakenly thought that by helping me she'd win my heart... (Yes, I'm getting to an on-topic point). She ended up challenging me to a "duel". She was dead serious, and picked up one of my rapiers. I reluctantly accepted the challenge, after taking a couple full-force blows to my arms which I had thrown up to protect my head and neck, so I picked up my other rapier and took a defensive stance. No masks... no armor of any kind, just the two schlagers, which thankfully were re-enactment schlager blades. VERY tough steel blades. Hurt like hell when she tried to take my head off before the duel and hit my arms. I fought defensively, as she continued to try and take off my head. No time to think about whether the edge of my blade or the flat was to be used to parry, but remembering, I use mainly a deflective parry that uses the flat of the blade to drive the opponent's blade either to their outside, or across their body where I can foul up their weapon. This was done on pure instinct in this fight, with no forethought or planning, obviously... she saw it as a real duel, which I suppose it was. She fought angrily, and flailed alot, but her attacks were VERY quick and powerful. I kept a cool head, and ended up disarming her in a way that her rapier was twisted out of her hand, and flipped in the air before landing near my feet, which I put my foot on to keep her from picking it up again, and put the tip of my rapier to her throat and asked if her anger and honor was satisfied. I did not hurt her, as I didn't attack her in the duel, and after I had my rapier in hand, she didn't hurt me. She is still around, still plays in the SCA, has taken up a renewed interest in rapier fighting, but has not challenged me since... Looking back, it was the most beautiful fight I ever had a role in. If I were to fight again, re-enactment or otherwise, with a cutlass... I would want to make sure it was at least as sturdy as the rapier I used in that fight. I would also want my opponent's blade to be combat-quality as well. They say that the chain is only as strong as the weakest link... and I say the fight is only as safe as the weakest sword used. Captain of the Iron Lotus It is the angle that holds the rope, not the size of the hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjohn Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 I am referring to their "Classic Pirate Cutlass", which is extremely similar to, although not exactly like the cutlass of Captain Benjamin Church, dated 1675-1678. Deja vu. Did we have this conversation already? Or was that with someone else? I know this came up within the last week or three. Maybe even in this thread? (But I'm to busy too go back and look.) Anyway... the two swords in question. True, they appear from these pics to be close. But we do know that the DeadMen cutlass is a repro of a RevWar era sword. The tip of the blades don't match. Neither do the guards. On the plus side, it is dirt cheap, and guys I know have modified them into looking even more like a sword from our period. My Home on the Web The Pirate Brethren Gallery Dreams are the glue that holds reality together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjohn Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 if your breaking them and leaving V-shaped knicks in the edge, there's something wrong. Or it means that I've been re-enacting for 26 years, as practically every kind of soldier (I have yet to do horse mounted cavalry) from the age of Rome to WWII, and I've just seen my fair share of things go wrong. I believe in all that time I have been witness to or heard about three or four snapped tangs, and I have seen one axe head go flying through the air (not a pleasant sight). That being said, I feel we've diverged from the original "where to buy it" aspects of this thread to more historical aspects of combat, the how-to, which I believe is more appropriate to the Capt Twill forum. My Home on the Web The Pirate Brethren Gallery Dreams are the glue that holds reality together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman of Fortune Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 I think that the swords posted are similar... but there are some major differences that are "masked" by the 1) angle of the photo and 2) black & white photo doesn't show a lot of detail. Aside from the differences mentioned in earlier post, the knuckle gaurd on the Ben Church sword is classically 17th/Early 18th century. It is like the ones seen on smallswords of the period. It has a bilobate counterguard, with a distinctive quillion. The grip also seems to have a consistant diameter from the guard to the pommel. The blade is typical of hangers of the period. The Deadman cutlass is a classic cutlass. The D shaped guard that incorperates the pommel, guard quillion, and knuckle bow into one piece. The whole hilt is a massive affair that contrasts with the more refined look of the Ben Church sword. Yes, at a glance they are similar. But they are really two completely different swords that represent an evolution of the Naval Cutlass that are seperated by about 100 years. Its a shame that there is not more interest in Rev War Privateer. There are plenty of shoe makers and sword makers for the late 18th century and this sword would be perfect. GoF Come aboard my pirate re-enacting site http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/ Where you will find lots of information on building your authentic Pirate Impression! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the Royaliste Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 if your breaking them and leaving V-shaped knicks in the edge, there's something wrong. Or it means that I've been re-enacting for 26 years, as practically every kind of soldier (I have yet to do horse mounted cavalry) from the age of Rome to WWII, and I've just seen my fair share of things go wrong. I believe in all that time I have been witness to or heard about three or four snapped tangs, and I have seen one axe head go flying through the air (not a pleasant sight). That being said, I feel we've diverged from the original "where to buy it" aspects of this thread to more historical aspects of combat, the how-to, which I believe is more appropriate to the Capt Twill forum. If some of you can put your ego's in a box for a while, then open any copy of 'Neumann', you'll realise that mucho blade styles exist in history.As for the blade tip mentioned, I've a similar one on display at present throughout Southern California. The Smithsonian tag is still aboard ship.1770 is the date of use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjohn Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 If some of you can put your ego's in a box for a while, then open any copy of 'Neumann', you'll realise that mucho blade styles exist in history.As for the blade tip mentioned, I've a similar one on display at present throughout Southern California. The Smithsonian tag is still aboard ship.1770 is the date of use. I regularly open my copy of Swords and Blades, and the DeadMen's pirate cutlass is obviously a repro of a RevWar cutlass found inside. As for ego's, yours can trump mine anyday. You own a ship. You've got me beat by a long sea mile!!! My Home on the Web The Pirate Brethren Gallery Dreams are the glue that holds reality together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monterey Jack Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 if your breaking them and leaving V-shaped knicks in the edge, there's something wrong. Or it means that I've been re-enacting for 26 years, as practically every kind of soldier and I've just seen my fair share of things go wrong. I believe in all that time I have been witness to or heard about three or four snapped tangs, and I have seen one axe head go flying through the air (not a pleasant sight). I've seen it happen too; and 90% of the time its something that could have been avoided. I've been doing this for nearly 20 years (both theatrical and full contact) and have never had a broken blade, broken tang or physical injury. Partly due to buying very carefully (to keep the topic loosely open) from dealers or makers I've done my homework on, and partly from taking the time to learn said weapons capabilities before applying it in a combat situation. I apologise to those who think these posts are ego-inspired, that's not my intent, my intention is to hopefully cause folks to buy carefully and use even more carefully. I'll consider the topic closed unless I see it pop of over on Capt. Twill's forum. Monterey Jack "yes I am a pirate 200 years too late, the cannons don't thunder, there's nothin to plunder, I'm an over-40 victim of fate, arrivin too late.........." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjohn Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 I apologise to those who think these posts are ego-inspired, that's not my intent, my intention is to hopefully cause folks to buy carefully and use even more carefully. I'll consider the topic closed unless I see it pop of over on Capt. Twill's forum. As do I. Nor was it my intent. And I want to raise a glass to the Royaliste for putting us back in our place. My Home on the Web The Pirate Brethren Gallery Dreams are the glue that holds reality together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 I too would like to apologize for steering this topic off course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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