Belt knife...working knife

[Hawkyns]

A question for the learned denizens of these parts. I've seen the archeology reports from the Mary Rose. Most sailor's belt or working knives were ballock knives and relatively pointed. I've also seen a lot of anecdotal evidence that sailor's knives in the GAoP and later had their points broken off, supposedly to reduce fighting. That leaves about 150 years of gap. Can anyone tell me when the point breaking started or when sheeps foot blades became common among sailors?

I'm looking to refine my 1595 kit and I'm not just sure what a working belt knife might be.

Thanks, All!

Hawkyns

[Black Deacon]

As best as I can remember. The first I heard of mandatory tip breakage was around 1515 and was left to the Captains descression. It was also an issue of accidental deep cuts from heaving seas and the like of rough weather. Where a mate or able was not as prone from years of being on board a press or lubber didn't have that experience and coordination.

[Hawkyns]

Next question, for Foxe or anyone else.

Has anyone seen reference to a lanyard being attached to a sailor's working knife in the 16th or 17th C? It's logical, it's common in later periods, but is it accurate for an Elizabethan to do it?

Thank you!!

Hawkyns

[Fox]

Bloomin' good question! I don't recall ever having specifically seen a lanyard, or evidence of a lanyard from that period, and a quick hunt through the pictures I have to hand certainly doesn't show any. Butler doesn't mention lanyards and I can't think off-hand of any specifically mentioned in Monson or Hakluyt.

On the other hand, I have a lanyard (attached to my belt rather than round my neck) on my working knife cos it's flipping sensible, especially in the boat or working aloft. They had the technology and they weren't stupid, but no, I can't off-hand find any positive evidence.

FWIW, I understand that the breaking off of dagger points was not to reduce fighting so much as to reduce the damage caused by fights. If I slash you it hurts, if I stab you then you die. I don't recall any specific evidence but I'm pretty sure I first heard about this in connection with Tudor seamen.

[Bully MacGraw]

I have not seen anything about broken point UNTILL the 19th century!!!! I have seen the sheep foot points bit not a broken tip!

Cheers

Ed McGrath

[Fox]

I've not seen anything reliable at all about broken points, and although the reference I saw to them was about the 16th century I'm not at all sure that it ever happened. If I can find the reference again I'll see if it's sourced, but I can't even remember where I read it.

Now, would someone be kind enough to enlighten me as to sheep's foot points?

[Hawkyns]

It's the Yank name for a particular blade point type. Spine and edge more or less parallel for most of the blade, then dropping sharply from spine to edge on about a 75 degree angle. Think the main blade of the standard British Army pocket knife of 40's 50's vintage.

Hawkyns

[Fox]

G.E. Manwaring's excellent article "The Dress of the British Seaman; From the Earliest Times Till 1600", printed in the Mariner's Mirror, Vol. 8, (1922) was the first of four excellent articles, meticulously researched and generally well sourced.

In that article he quotes from a number of original sources regarding the appearance of English seamen, and one of the quotes he gives mentions "chaynes for the mariners' knives" in the 16th century. He is clearly quoting a contemporary document (possibly Howard's letter to Burghley of August 10th 1587), but unfortunately he doesn't make it clear exactly which document. However, there's your lanyards.

[Fox]

Dunno what happened there, posted twice for some reason. Anyway, let me just add to the information:

The wife of John Griffin (or Griffith), quartermaster of the Barbara of Portsmouth which set sail for Brasil in 1540 deposed that his possessions on that voyage included "a dagger withe an yelowe hafte hangyd withe a cheyne of iron."

Edited August 12, 2005 by Foxe

[capnwilliam]

Another way to think of a sheepfoot's point: it's the type of point on that blade on the 3-blade stockman's pattern pocket knife that interferes with yer hand while you're using one of the other two blades.

Sheepfoot pattern is still standard for seaman's blades and is a darn good blade shape for anything where you don't need a good point.

My daily pocket knife is a Camillus yellow boy with pen and sheepfoot blades. It works very well for just about everything you'd use a "city boy's" pocket knife for. :)

Capt. William

[Gutterpunk13]

Where might i find one of them Ballock Knives that you mentioned?

John

[Dorian Lasseter]

Here's one...

http://www.armor.com/2000/catalog/item199.html

And another, very different looking..

http://www.arcadianforge.com/bknife.htm

[Patrick Hand]

Wow... the one from Armour.com.... is pretty... but for $580.... dang.......

Still very nice, (and it has everything.... kinda like an early period Swiss army knife...... )

I've always though Bullocks daggers were kinda funny.... espescialy when you look at period pictures and see how they were worn....... (dang buncha perverts )

[Fox]

I got my bollock knife from a guy called Ron Matless who does some seriously excellent cutlery at reasonable prices (more reasonable than £580 anyway!). He does have a website at http://www.interknife.co.uk/main.html but it states that he doesn't sell bolock knives online (presumably because each one is different). Perhaps he might by email. Here's mine that he copied from one of the Mary Rose bollock knives.