Too clean to be a pirate?

[Fox]

In The Buccaneer Project I wrote:

On the whole, and contrary to popular belief seafarers of the buccaneer age DID think washing was a good idea.

QUOTE 

"...the Swabber of the ship, and his office and charge is, to make and keep the ship clean, and that as well in the great cabin as everywhere between the deck; to which he hath also a mate or two allowed him, according to the burthen or bigness of the ship. And they are to see the ship to be well washed within board and without, and especially about the gunwhales and chains. ... The chief swabber is also to oversee every private and particular man's cabin and sleeping place, and to admonish them all in general to be cleanly and neat; and to inform the Captain of all such as are not, that they may not by their nastiness be offensive to their neighbours. "

From Butler's Dialogues, written in the early 17th century, but published in 1685.

To which Belladonna Bess replied;

I'm sidetracking Patrick's buccaneer thread, but thanks Foxe, that is really interesting. The way Dampier specifically comments on twice-a-day bathing in the tropics indicates that he thought it would be unusual and interesting to his audience (because he states at the beginning that he would leave out things that he thought would be familiar to his readers, no doubt to the great chagrin of modern historians).

Of course Dampier's audience was people on land in England, not seafarers.

Do you have any further information on this? For some reason I think the history of washing is a really interesting subject. (Yes, I realise I'm strange. I just don't care.)

So I thought that rather than sidetracking Patrick's thread the topic probably deserved one of its own.

Yes Bess, I do have further information, what particularly were you after? Would this quote from the 17th century Monson be good to go on with?

The Swabber and the Liar

The swabber is to keep the cabins and all of the rooms of the ship clean within board, and the liar is to do the same without board. The liar holds his place but for a week; and he that is the first taken with a lie upon a Monday morning is proclaimed at the main mast with a general cry 'A liar , a liar, a liar'; and for that week he is under tha swabber, and meddles not with making the ship clean within board, but without*

*ie, he cleaned the crap off the side of the ship below the heads.

I have a reference somewhere to the liar on a late 17th century ship, but I can't lay my hands on it immediately. In the later refenence it was suggested that the liar might also be proclaimed as the first person who swore on a Monday. I just get this image of all the seamen going around stamping on each other's toes every Monday morning in the hope of making a unpopular crew-member swear first.

Bit early I know, but give me a couple of hours and I'll find a photo to post of the folding manicure set found on the Mary Rose.

With regards to Dampier, I think the unusual thing is not that they were washing, but that they were washing twice a day. THAT would have been unusual!

[Belladonna Bess]

Thanks Foxe.

My interest is general - think I picked up an interest in washing from a childhood obsession with Roman baths. I haven't looked into it in a lot of detail, but Dampier got me interested in it in relation to pirates - I've spent a little time living, and working outdoors, in the tropics and I could certainly see his point.

A more specific question based on your response would be whether you knew any more about frequency and methods of personal washing aboard ship and how it would have compared to what was usual on land in the same period. I'm assuming water conservation would have been quite important (although I guess there were often close to land or even on land so maybe less than I might think), and salt water isn't particularly satisfactory for washing.

I'm not expecting you to go to any trouble but I'd be interested to hear if you have information to hand or can suggest resources. I've really only just started reading about pirates - I was basically having fun playing dressup and then my trivia-loving brain discovered the historical side (sigh - there aren't enough hours in the day to read all the books piled by my bed...).

[dasNdanger]

Foxe...I'm a wee bit confuzzled.

I'm also a WEEEEEE bit sparrowed, so speak slowly...k???

*hic*

That's some fantastic information!! Good lord - I would hate to be the 'liar'...eep!

Where is the above information from, and to what sort of ship does it refer?? A pirate or privateer? Navy hulk? Merchant?

I know that they would use vinegar to wash down naval vessels, and that spitting on deck was punishable by flogging. So yes, a certain amount of cleanliness was expected. I have alos read - somewhere - something similar to this: "...and to admonish them all in general to be cleanly and neat; and to inform the Captain of all such as are not, that they may not by their nastiness be offensive to their neighbours." Not sure where I read it, but the general idea was, with so many men living is such a confined area, it was not acceptable for one's body odor to be overbearing.

As far as washing goes - the information I have on the British navy is that washing was done in seawater - NOT the most acceptable water because it left the clothing damp and irritating. In one reference I have the lads washed their clothes in 'peas water' - can we assume that's the water the peas were boiled in?? I have also read that they used urine to 'bleach' their white dress shirts - but not sure of the accuracy of that account because urine was used as a mordant to 'fix' dyes, and therefore apt to fix stains, too.

Washing in fresh water was considered a luxury - HOWEVER, in the Caribbean with so many islands scattered about, it may have been easier to obtain fresh water from various locations (including rainwater) and therefore easier to bathe or wash clothing without the salt factor.

I have been in many discussions on the hygiene of a seafaring man, and even grilled my brother, a fisherman, on the subject. He told me the ones you LEAST expect to be dirty are, and after a week at sea, some start smelling pretty ripe. But in a structured environment, such as aboard a naval vessel, I think things may have been different. That's why I'm curious about what sort of vessel that information referred to...

Post more, please - I would love to learn more!!

das

[Fox]

Hi Das,

the first quote I gave came from Butler's "Dialogues", written in 1620something and published in 1685, the second came from one of William Monson's Tracts, written about the same time as Butler and published at various dates - I was quoting from the 1912 NRS collected edition (vol III). The bit you quoted and couldn't remember the origin of came from Butler's Dialogues (see my first quotation).

It's difficult to tell exactly what kind of ship they were talking about; both Butler and Monson served on privateers and Navy vessels, and Butler probably had a bit of the pirate in him too. Since the day to day procedures of ships probably didn't vary all that much it's probably safe to assume they were writing about English ships in general.

Exactly what "peas water" was I wouldn't like to say without knowning the full context of the quote. It could be the water from the peas, but it might also be perhaps "piss water", a reference to the use of urine as a cleanser you mention.

[dasNdanger]

*drags stinky self outta sick bed...*

The 'peas water' reference came from 'A Midshipman in Copenhagen', found in the The Mammoth Book of Men O'War. It's a short, real life account based on the memoirs of a young midshipman (John Finlayson), c. 1800.

The section in question reads:

Our cruise was expected to be a very long one, and not a very pleasant one during the winter. We began (we Mids.) to wonder how our wardrobes would stand affliction. On Friday evening after the last dog-watch, plans were laid and we began to take stock, determined that two out of each mess should commence the operation of washing a shirt for each in the pump-well, but a difficulty arose about water, for being so long out of it after a certain time, it was being served so much to each Mess. But what with plundering, and purchasing with grog from one Mess or the other, and a little with peas water, we could manage to rub out pretty decently six or eight shirts, sometimes a dickey or two. White stockings, if not too black or dirty, we could chalk or pipe-clay.

*grabs bottle of rum and crawls back into sick bed...*

das

[Fox]

Since they're middies washing their shirts I think "peas" water is unlikely - it would turn their white shirts green. "Piss" water is perhaps more likely or maybe something completely different from either.

Hmmm, woman in bed with a bottle of rum - what could be more tempting?

[the Royaliste]

It has been mentioned on both the History Channel, and the Discovery Channel recently that urine was a relatively good detergent at sea, containing enuff phosphates to get the job done. I'll leave my 'living history' at that, 'cuz I jus' luv's modern detergents...

[dasNdanger]

Hmmm, woman in bed with a bottle of rum - what could be more tempting?

Sticky toffee pudding!!

...but then again, yer asking the wrong person...

So, can we safely assume that this reference to 'peas' water is actually piss water? And thanks, Royaliste, for confirming what I had 'heard' before but wasn't 100% sure of being true. And to think - I freak out if Mr. Das doesn't have good aim and misses the bowl...

Okayokayokay....so IF it was traditional to use urine as a laundry...booster...wouldn't the shirts STINK??! I mean...it's...peeeeeee, afterall. I guess all I'm thinking is that the whole ship went around smelling like the public toilets at a bus station. Or do you suppose that the urine was used sparingly, and then the clothing washed WELL in salt or fresh water?

I would love for one of you brave gents to do a 'wee' experiment using this technique of laundering, since you have the proper fabrics and all. I'm just wondering if rinsing well in sea or fresh water would remove any offensive odors...and whether any hidden odors emerge once one starts to sweat.

On a side note - does anyone know what sort of soap was in use at the beginning of the 18th century? Just a basic lye soap, I guess - but what was the most common source....gah, NOT wording this right. Okay - would olive oil or tallow been most commonly used during that time? Would it have been 'manufactured', or just homemade and either you had it, or you didn't? Would soap have been common aboard ship (I notice that those Mids. a hundred years later didn't mention soap when doing their laundry)? Or did it all just 'depend'? I grew up using lye soap made from rendered pig fat and know what it's like, so I'm curious as to how close that soap was to what was in use around 1700. The soap was made - along with other things - by an elderly neighbor-lady in her dark, dank basement...full of severed pig heads and entrails...andlemmejustsaythisaboutthat... 'PARENTS SHOULD NEVER LET THEIR KIDS SEE WHERE 'SCRAPPLE' COMES FROM IF THEY EVER WANT 'EM TO EAT IT AGAIN!!!!'

das

[Rumba Rue]

What, me too clean to be a pirate? Well maybe my body is, but my mind went ages ago.

Rumba

** **

[the Royaliste]

Before the fur market went to hell in the eighties, I did several large Ronde's where people were greatly demanding the fat from raccoons and beaver I'd skinned.. Since I find raccoon fat really disgusting, I gave 'em all they wanted. They gave us back some really great lye soap made from that very fat. Thay had it all ways; bars, flake, you name it....I figure there were plenty of sources in the frontier as well as the civilized world...

[lady snow]

:) had a friend a while back that lived very basic. just about the only things he bought from the 'mercantile' were the staples -flour, salt, white sugar...that kind of stuff. the rest he grew, hunted, made for himself with his own ingenuity. it amazes me to see people so self-sufficent in these days of instant communication and such.

[Patrick Hand]

This is from an article by Mark Baker in may/june 1987 issue of Muzzeloader...

"...A chunk of Castile soap. ... Frenchmen, Indains and white hunters alike favored the Castile soap above their homemade lard soaps. They were willing to pay dearly for that little bit of luxury. Castile soap was made from olive oil in Spain and traded worldwide as early as 700 A.D. Beginning in the early 1800s, Castile soap was made from coconut oil. It is possible to buy both kinds of Castile soap today."

[dasNdanger]

I'm trying to decipher the diff between 'Castile' and 'lye' soaps...since soap is made with lye. Basically looks like soap made from animal fat (with no 'luxury' oils) is called 'lye' soap, and usually a harsher soap best used for laundry (that's what we used it for - laundry and handwashing). Castile soap, originally made with 100% olive oil (and later other vegetable oils) , was mild and soft, and thus preferred for personal use. So I'm suspecting that if any sailor or pirate had a bar of Castile in his possession, he wouldn't use it to scrub out stains in his tighty whities...

das

[Belladonna Bess]

This looks like quite a good article on the subject.

http://www.pharmj.com/Editorial/19991218/a...icles/soap.html

Glad it's not just me who thinks this is interesting. Although I'm not going down the practical experimentation line with this again. I tried once, as a teenager, and the results were disgusting. I decided that traditional soap manufacture would not be added to my list of hobbies.

[dasNdanger]

Glad it's not just me who thinks this is interesting. Although I'm not going down the practical experimentation line with this again. I tried once, as a teenager, and the results were disgusting. I decided that traditional soap manufacture would not be added to my list of hobbies.

Oh, RATS! I thought you meant that you had done the urine experiment! Phooey.

I have a friend who makes her own Castile soap - I didn't realize until tonight that that's what it is, though. She just calls it olive oil soap...

Comparing her Castile soap to the lye soap I used as a kid - the difference is obvious. The olive oil soap is just...silkier, for lack of a better word, whereas the lye soap was 'harder' and it's lather not as rich.

das

[Fox]

Thanks to Mad Mike for reminding me on another board:

The stores list for Woodes Rogers jaunt around the globe included "Three boxes of Soape".