BLACK!! (Back there again, are we??)

[dasNdanger]

Sorry - I didn't want to dig up the thread(s) where black dye was discussed, and I'm kinda bored tonight - so I figgered I'd just start a new thread.

Remember how we discussed black...how it's not a practical color because the dye was expensive, and it easily faded...well...silly question here, but since many Jolly Rogers were black, how did they achieve the color?? Were they made from tarred canvas? Painted? Dyed??

I'm thinking they were painted, but not sure...

das

[JoshuaRed]

Somewhere here is a LONG thread about this very thing. The final consensus of which was that they probably used whatever was on hand, be it actual black silk, or just canvas painted black with the symbol whitewashed on to it.

[dasNdanger]

see what happens when you're too lazy to do a search...

An entire thread, you say?? Perhaps a lovely mod would merge this thread into that one, just to prevent the board clutter I seem to be creating here...

Thanks for the info!! I'm thinking it was painted because painted canvas was quite an art back then, and often 'carpets' were created from painted canvas for the captain's quarters, etc. Since may also had white and red (and perhaps other colors), it just seems logical that paint, and not dyes, were used...

das

[JoshuaRed]

Now that I'm thinking about this, it seems to me that a large flag of heavy canvas weighted down with a couple coats of paint or tar would not fly very well at all. So perhaps it was more frequently dyed.

[Fox]

I have been researching flags quite a bit recently, and I've only come across two detailed references to the fabrics used.

Johnson's General History states that Davis's crew "hoisted a dirty Tarpawlin, by Way of black Flag, they having no other". Clearly this is not an ideal flag, and was not typical.

In 1729 the flag of Captain Dulaien is described in a letter as being made of "etoffe noire (ie black fabric) sur laquelle se detachaient des marques blanches..." - A flag of black fabric on which are depicted in white... The same flag is described elsewhere as being made of "Ras de St. Maur", a fairly fine French cloth.

I agree entirely with Josh that canvas would not be a particularly suitable fabric for flags, it's too heavy. It would serve in an emergency (like Davis's) but generally speaking anything lighter would be better. Silk is ideal, but even cotton or linen could be used. Modern flags tend to be made of a kind of linen/cotton fabric with a fairly open weave, and I see no reason to suppose that flags were not often made the same way in the GAoP. Also, I agree that painting the whole flag black would probably be impractical on the whole as it would weigh the flag down too much and make it too stiff, though designs and devices were certainly painted on many flags of the period.

[dasNdanger]

Okay, now that I think about it, a painted flag would be impractical - it would be like a piece of cardboard up there!

I have one shaky source that suggests the emblems were sewn on, not painted...not sure if that's correct or not.

So, we're back to the black dye issue. If black dyes faded easily, then how long was a black flag black! 'Under the Ratty Grey Flag', just not as fearsome, eh?

[Fox]

I think either sewn or painted would be authentic for a pirate flag. There are no surviving pirate flags from the GAoP (probably), but other surviving flags from the GAoP, as well as before and after, include both sewn and painted examples.

Out of interest, and I meant to post this in the last post. Dulaien's flag description also gives us a good idea of the size of flags. His was 22'9" X 14'9".

[Gentleman of Fortune]

One of the Threads is here

Well now either black dye is expensive or it isn't. What are the chances that the ship a mutinous crew takes over and becomes a pirate vessel just happens to have a keg of expensive black dye to make pirate flags out of.

You have to take the flag's size into account as well.

Here is a repost of mine on the topic....

The question of how pirate flags were made and what they were made of probably comes up on every discussion board/e-mail list.

I think that the best answer for the question was that they were made out of any materials that they had available to them. If the pirates "took" over a 8 gun sloop, what kinds of things were available to them?

Sail cloth, linen, other flags (probably wool), paint, needles, thread, tar.

A good indication would be to try to find period examples of other naval flags.

Here is one that was captured by the British(9 January 1806)

Spanish Ensign

"Even for an era of enormous flags (British ensigns of the period would be 20 feet wide) this one is huge being about 33 feet wide and 45 feet long (9.8 x 14.4 metres).

"The Spanish ensign is made from a red and yellow wool fabric, often referred to as 'bunting’--- NOTE BUNTING IS WOOL---, narrow widths of the fabric are hand sewn together and a linen hoist strip is attached. The Spanish emblem is painted or stencilled onto both sides of the flag."

To me, tarred sailcloth with a painted and sewn on skull and bones (like in Foxe's post) would possibly be the norm not the exception.

Considering that most ships would have several different flags in their stores for signaling or identification, I would assume that the pirate would try to make a flag like the ones that he was already familiar with.

Here is flag construction and a quick quote from the site

"In the 18th and 19th century, flags were usually made of one of three fabrics, although a home-made flag could be made out of most anything at hand. These fabrics are: wool, linen and silk. Later, more or less during and after the Civil War, cotton became available in weights and finishes suitable for flags.

Woolen bunting, usually imported from England in the early days, is a light-weight, thin fabric prized for nautical use because of its flyability and resistance to rot from exposure to seawater. Linen was often used for the header and stars on such flags. Linen was also used for some "service" flags because of its inexpensive (at the time due to being the most common home-spun) nature. Silk was expensive and used for military and ceremonial flags. Thsese often bore complicated, allegorical or heraldic images painted on by master artists, often with different designs on each side"

I think that pirates probably started off with what ever was available and then worked their way up to a nicer flag. One of my books says that there was some lady that sewed pirate flags in exchange for rum, And I think UNDER THE BLACK FLAG book has an account of the pre trial procession of some pirtes that says they "had their black silk flag carried before them."

This is a mish mash of other post I have made...

GoF

[blackjohn]

Our Pirate Brethren flag may be made of this wool bunting... it's weird wool, very light and thin. The only other wool I've ever seen like it was the wool my friend Carol used to line a coat for an ultra-authentic F&I guy. Sadly, it's waaaay too small to be of much use... doubly sad, because the skull and xbones was very expensive white wool from a mill in England that has been producing wool since the 1700s and was supposed to be the lining for my revwar officer's coat... and even more so because in hindsight, the xbones aren't xbones, but wings, and I've read somewhere recently that wings really meant going to heaven, which technically probably wasn't very high on the list of places pirates thought they'd end up... and am I just rambling...???

One other experience with flags... don't know that I've mentioned in the other thread on this board or not... I was once an ensign in a RevWar unit... that's the guy who carries the flag in case you were wondering... the flag was built as historically accurate as possible (from an existing example in the Smithsonian I believe) and had a hand-painted eagle fighting a goose motif with the motto Exercitus In Dubio Est... anyway... the paint used was whatever was appropriate to RevWar (milk paint on silk??? I dunno... I could get in touch with the guy who painted it if anyone is interested)... and... after every battle I was covered with paint chips, because the mixture wasn't right! So, while she caught the breeze wonderfully, the paint cracked and peeled after every use.

(hehehe... and I used to cringe whenever she got caught on someone's bayonet... ouch!)

ramble mode off

[Fox]

To me, tarred sailcloth with a painted and sewn on skull and bones (like in Foxe's post) would possibly be the norm not the exception.

I dunno, I find it very hard to swallow tarred sailcloth as the norm. I think it would just be too heavy and the tar would close up the weave too much for it to fly properly. It might, as in Davis's case, be used in an emergency, but I can't see anyone serious putting up with it for long. It just wouldn't fly properly, and what's the point of having a flag at all if it doesn't fly and can't be seen?

John, I used to be ensign of my English civil war regiment. We had two flags (officially we had two companies, but we fielded as one...), we used one for living history and battles, the other for parades and ceremonial. The ceremonial flag was kept pristine, but the LH flag we took to a firing range, spread it out and fired a 3pdr loaded with grape shot at it just to get that "battle" look authentic.

[HarborMaster]

You also have to consider flappin' about at the top of a tall ship can sometimes be a bit more than a little breeze and could easily thrash a 7 dollar Ebay flag pretty quickly...., Perhaps a painted flag isnt so far off the mark., made from an old piece of sail cloth.

[Fox]

I'm not suggsting pirates bought their flags from ebay

If you look at the surviving ships' flags from the days of sail you'll find they're made of MUCH lighter material than tarred sailcloth, usually one of the other materials already mentioned, silk, bunting etc. Whichever way you look at it, even considering the marginal difference in wind at the top of a mast tarred sailcloth would be too heavy, too stiff and too close weaved to fly properly. If you don't believe me, try it.

[MadMike]

... and this description in Johnson's "Pyrates" describing Bartholomew Roberts-

"They came to Whydah with a St. George's ensign, a black silk flag flying at their mizzen-peak, and a jack and pendant of the same. The flag had a death in it, with an hour-glass in one hand, and cross bones in the other, a dart by it, and underneath a heart dropping three drops of blood. The jack had a man portrayed in it, with a flaming sword in his hand, and standing on two skulls..."

Yours, &c.

Mike

[Fox]

...Lyne's flag is described in a newspaper of March 1726 as a "Black Silk Flagg with a Representation of a Man with a Cutlass in one Hand and a Pistol in the other Extended".

[JoshuaRed]

LOL instead of hearing the crisp snap of a flag atop the mizzen with tarred/painted canvas it would be "ka-thud. Bang. Fwap. Ka-thud...."

[dasNdanger]

There once was a lass from Cape May,

Who learned that black dyes fade away.

So she asked through the bull,

‘Whether silken or wool,

Do black flags still turn into grey?’

das

[JoshuaRed]

Get some black silk, soak it in salt water and put it out in a sunny spot in the back yard, leave it there for a few months and see if it fades.

Course, here is another facet: flags were only run up when intending to communicate with other ships. Usually ships sailing along did not constantly fly a flag, especially the jolly roger. So they may not have worn to gray merely because they didn't catch that many rays.

[Fox]

Anyone mind if I throw a few a few statistics in here? I've done quite a bit of research on flags and have identified 50 pirate flags from the GAoP. That is: pirate flags genuinely described or depicted in period documents, not flags with just a web or modern book source. I've also not included the flags of Caribbean buccaneers of the 17th century, although the skull and cross-bones first appeared on a pirate flag in the 1680s. Neither have I included Barbary pirate flags of the GAoP period, even though at least one features a skull and cross-bones. Finally, I have not included mentions of the bloody flag, or false colours flown by pirates of the GAoP. 5 of the flags I have included are only pictoral variations on those described in written sources. So:

50 flags identified, of which:

27 are definitely described or depicted as black

10 are definitely described or depicted as colours other than black

13 have only the devices described, not the colours

Or, if you prefer to discount the 5 variations (which I think would be slightly more accurate)

45 flags identified, of which:

22 are definitely black

10 defintely are not black

13 are not specified either way.

So, given either set of figures only about half of the known pirate flags were definitely black, and between a fifth and a quarter (about 22% actually) were definitely not black.

Some examples:

A ballad of the time describes Henry Avery's flag like this:

Thomas Anstis is known to have flown this flag amongst others:

Roberts' consort James Skyrm may have flown this flag:

This flag was reported in 1717, and the source give some suggestion that French pirates often flew white flags (well they would, wouldn't they? )

Perhaps most interestingly in 1719 George Shelvocke sweepingly wrote that the flag "of the pirates [is] a yellow field and a black human skeleton".

Could it be that many pirate flags were in fact yellow?

[MadMike]

Foxe,

Great research as usual. Will buy you a few pints if I ever go across the pond again (twice during my lifetime, spent seven years in Europe while in the military).

I'm curious about an image of the Bristol seafront which appears in the Time-Life series book "Pirates" (page 14 and 15) in the Seafarer's series. Any idea when it was painted? It's credited to "City Art Library, Bristol".

Appears to be during the mid 1700's due to the cut of the clothing of the gentlemen in the foreground. Has some interesting images of dock workers (or seamen) in the work also.

Yours, &c.

Mike

[Fox]

I don't have a copy of the Time-Life book with the painting in, but if it's the one I think it is (how many paintings of Bristol docks in the 18th century to the City Museum have?), which appears in many illustrated books then it's by Peter Monomy. I don't know the exact date but Monomy was painting in the first part of the 18th century so the painting of the docks is probably exactly as Woodes Rogers and all those other Bristol pirates would have known them.

[Fox]

Just a further note on the construction of pirate flags:

One of Thomas Cocklyn's flags was described by a crew member as "A Black fflag...on ye one side of which was painted the skeleton of ane Human body such as Death used to be Represented by..."