Lets Play... STUMP THE PUB (or stump Foxe!)

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Well, I was really impressed by Foxe finding a period picture on such short notice. Very well done and it provided lots of other answers and new questions (the other things in the picture).

SO here is the next challenge for anyone who can help "solve" it.

There has been a lot of talk about equity among the races in the GAoP. Has anyone seen any pictorial reference of Black and White pirates together?

post em if you got em!

GoF

[Fox]

I'm presuming you're asking for pictures which show equality between races, not this sort of thing?

[Gentleman of Fortune]

uhhh... yeah

Is the one with the umbrella a pirate?

GoF

[JoshuaRed]

No he's in the Gold Coast Tourism & Hospitality Industry.

[Fox]

I think it does show equality actually. On the one hand Avery has got all the clothes, the sword the gun etc. On the other hand, if it starts to rain, who's got the umbrella eh? I expect the guy in the loincloth is taunting Avery... "Haha! One of the hottest and wettest climates on Earth and you went and picked the woolen clothes! SUCKEEEEER!"

And yes, he may be a pirate. It's impossible to tell since they're both on shore.

[John Maddox Roberts]

This is a vexing question, since it is well known that blacks were often found on pirate ships, but were they pirates? We know that slaves were often part of the loot taken from other ships, and that pirate ships often carried black slaves to do the scut work like manning the pumps, scrubbing the decks, etc. Pirates weren't known for their love of hard work. But does this mean that blacks weren't also pirates as well? In those days, a black who was also a pirate might be perfectly comfortable in an environment where other blacks were slaves. That was just the way of the world they lived in. I've never seen a record of a captured black pirate standing trial, but then it could be that captured black pirates were simply sold into slavery instead of standing trial with their white brethren. It's the paucity of information that stymies us here.

[JoshuaRed]

Well don't forget Caesar, one of Teach's men who was taken to Williamsburg to stand trial with Israel Hands and the others. I believe he was hung? He was reportedly one tough bastid, he was the one who was going to blow the ship sky high rather than be taken alive, wasn't he? I'm just shooting from my spotty memory here.

[dasNdanger]

Isn't it widely accepted that Laurent (Laurens) de Graff (Lorencillo) was of European and African ancestry??

Anyway - here's some info I found on the National Geographics kids' site. The artwork is modern, and the information is rather simplistic, but it gives some leads where to dig deeper for factual information:

Pirates and Sailors: Black History on the High Seas

By Sarah Ives

National Geographic Kids News

February 02, 2004

Blackbeard, Samuel Bellamy, William Kidd—the names of famous pirates remind people of parrots, treasure, and adventure on the high seas. But the fact that many pirates were African-American is often left out of U.S. Black History Month celebrations.

W. Jeffrey Bolster, a history professor at the University of New Hampshire, works to teach people about African-American sailors. This painting shows two pirates who traveled with Captain Kidd. The African American at top may have been second-in-command.

During the 17th and 18th centuries, Bolster said, as many as 30 percent of sailors were African-American. At sea, African Americans worked as cooks, musicians, skilled sailors, and unskilled workers. On whaling ships they often worked as harpooners, hunting whales with spears called harpoons.

African Americans also worked on pirate ships.

John Julian piloted the pirate ship Whydah (WID-uh). When Blackbeard fought to his death, 5 members of his 18-man crew were black. And at one point Captain Kidd appears to have had an African American second-in-command

During the golden age of pirates (1680-1725), African Americans were often forced to work as slaves on land. But on sea they may have had more equality.

Before the American Revolution, Bolster said, "pirates were much more democratic" than most people. Pirates often voted for their leaders. And, Bolster explained, "they sometimes elected black sailors to positions of authority."

Bolster doesn't know of any African-American pirate captains before 1725. But, he said, "there were black captains in the late 18th [and] early 19th centuries."

Bolster added that even though pirates were more democratic, they were not color-blind. African Americans also experienced racism at sea. Pirates sometimes forced unskilled African Americans to work as slaves.

Whether harpooners or pirates, African Americans played an important role in the history of sea travel. They worked on fishing boats and transport boats throughout the New World. They also served on boats in wars such as the War of 1812.

To learn more, check out W. Jeffrey Bolster's book Black Jacks: African American Seamen in the Age of Sail

Here's a link to the site: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/kids/20...ackpirates.html

das

[Rumba Rue]

...and Das comes through again....

Just adding the "peanut gallery" response.

Rumba Rue

** :) **

[Red Maria]

Read Ken Kinkor's Black Men Under the Black Flag in Bandits at Sea: A Pirate Reader pg195-210. A lot of information on black brethern of the coasts.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

I was kind of hoping to find a picture/engraving/wood cut etc of a black pirate that was "painted" during the GAoP....

the search goes on....

[Fox]

The thing is GoF, given the number of groups with an interest in proving the equality of black pirates - pirate historians generally, black promotional groups, race-relations groups etc - and given the combined public "clout" that they have, I think it's very unlikely that if there were a genuine picture from the GAoP which showed a black pirate in equal standing with his white brethren that we wouldn't already know about it. It would probably be the most commonly printed picture from the 18th century on any topic!

It's possible one may exist which hasn't yet been discovered, or its importance realised (though I think the latter is unlikely), but in that case I think it's unlikely any of us will find it.

I can't find any pictures of black seamen earlier than the 19th century, and nice as it would be to have an earlier one, I think it's really unlikely that a GAoP period one will surface.

[corsair2k3]

No period artwork here, but for a version of Kinkor's article that Red Maria, have a look at:

http://www.whydah.com/page.php?id=exp0244

There were *plenty* of pirate captains of at least partial African heritage prior to 1725.

IMO, the last thing that 18th-century upper-class Europeans wanted to publicize was that there were armed, angry, blacks on the high seas working in tandem with armed, angry, poor whites.

Regards,

The Corsair

Who had a crappy Valentines and is downright crabby this evening

[Fox]

Aaw Corsair, I love you

[corsair2k3]

I know....

[Adds a whole new dimension to the thread on earrings, don't it folks?]

The Corsair

[Fox]

Getting closer... This is "Mr John Beard in the character of the Captain of a Man-of-War" 1736. Taken from "The British Tar in Fact and Fiction" by Commander C.N. Robinson RN. 1909.

The figure 2nd from the left appears to be a black seaman. It's not the best copy so you'll have to take my word for it that in the original it was much more obvious. Alas this picture is my scan of a photocopy, the book was in the reference section.

OK, so he's an RN seaman not a pirate, and dates from 1736 so is a little late but it's getting there

[Patrick Hand]

In one of the other topics, Foxe mentioned "draws" (underwear)....

My guestion is..... what did they look like?

[JoshuaRed]

Excellent pic, Foxe. Hey the sailors all have shoes!

[Fox]

I think drawers for the GAoP period basically look like breeches with tied waist and knees, in a similar sort of fabric to shirts.

I noticed they were all wearing shoes too, most pertinently the guy third from the right who appears to be dressed more in his "working" rig than his "shore" rig. Still, since they're all on shore that doesn't necessarily mean too much.

[JoshuaRed]

Right Foxe, which brings up another annoyance of mine about period art of sailors, particularly the pirates in Johnson's: They are all on land!

Why is that? Because the lubberly artists who did the art probably had never been on a ship, and thus knew none of the details concerning the deck layout, rigging, etc. Much easier to use a stage of vague, lumpy rocks and have a teensy ship in the offing than to try and get the details of the quarterdeck right! Sheesh!

Actually I'd go one further and say that they probably COULD have drawn the men at sea, but due to deadlines or time constraints they opted for nondescript shorelines. Just like early comic books - hurry hurry hurry and get it out on the street to make a buck.

[MadMike]

OK my turn to stump the crew...

Any references to seamen wearing rope sandals? I haven't had much luck locating sources, other than mention that rope sandals were recovered from a Spanish wreck off Florida. A period pic or archaeological specimen would be great (historical justification).

Yours,

Mike

[blackjohn]

In one of the other topics, Foxe mentioned "draws" (underwear)....

My guestion is..... what did they look like?

Not too easy to see since they guy is clothed, but he's wearing a striped pair.

[Fox]

John,

I meant to ask before when you posted that picture on a different thread:

What's the origin of that painting and do you mind if I add it to me image archive?

[blackjohn]

No, I don't mind at all. I have another version, slightly smaller, less grainy, and not cropped to focus on the Dutch sea captain.

As for its point of origin, I don't remember, other than it being a book on period clothing, and as I recall a very good one that I borrowed from my alma mater's library.

The text which accompanies the figure reads, "[He] wears the long coat of a gentleman, but the tightly buttoned sleeves show him to be a sea captain. His fur hat was also nautical. One of his knee-breeches is undone, revealing his garter and striped drawers."

That last bit was taken from the Brethren's old website. I'll dig through my old htmls. Maybe I can find the title of the book in those...

Judging from their clothing, I'd guess this was just prior to the War of the Spanish Succesion.

[Fox]

Thanks John, if you happened to recall the artist there'd be a lollypop in it for you... if you magnify the picture a bit it looks like it's dated 1709 at the bottom, but I can't make the artist's name out.

I'm surprised nobody else has commented on this yet:

The little lad on the far left appears to be a ship's boy of some sort. It looks like he's bringing a message to the sea-captain - they are conversing ignored by and ignoring the rest of the room - and he's wearing mariner's cuffs. He's also got bare feet.

The fella on the right looks like a sailor to me too: short jacket, mariner's cuff. My question is "what is that he's holding?" Whatever it is it looks very interesting and like it has a definite purpose, but I can't make it out.