Swordplay...

[Hawkyns]

It came to me yesterday, (while on an adrenaline high) that while we mostly carry cutlasses and various other bits of sharp steel about our persons, there's only a few on this forum that have said they actually fight with said weapons. So I'm curious: what kind of swordspersons have we out there? What styles, what training, and which preferred weapons?

Being as it's my question, I'll answer first.

My serious sword work started 25 years ago in the SCA. Things have changed a lot, but I still play with them. It's the only place I know I can go and fight for 6 or 7 hours with a large pool of opponents. I prefer hisoric styles, and train and fight mostly out of Silver's manual, published in the late 1500's. I use Del Tin rapiers and hilts from Darkwood Armoury. I've recently discovered the short 32" Del Tin rapier and had it mounted in an Irish hilt, an early form of the Scots basket hilted broadsword. It is just perfectly balanced for the percussive cuts that Silver liked so much. I aquired with same, a matching Reiver dagger with a 12" blade, much more correct than the more normal 20" that most of the SCA uses.

Along with that, I have trained with the Sealed Knot and English Civil War Society's re-enactment styles. Done with blunted blades and no armour, it's unscripted combat based from 5 major cuts and their counters, no thrusting allowed. It does allow grappling and takedowns. Makes for great show, while at the same time allowing an actual fight with no pre-conceived outcome.This is what I use for most pirate combat, with a couple of my students that I trust not to kill me. For this we use the Armour Class blunts made in England, or modified Double Canelure blades from AFS. There are some top end Starfire blades that work for this also, though I have never owned one, just fought against them.

I've studied a few other styles along the way, some good some bad. I picked up a book that Bill Hobbs wrote a few years ago on sword fightng for the stage, great stuff from THE master. MacAsh has done some great stuff with Highlander, as has de Longis. Mark Ryan is not well known in this country, but is another great sword choreographer from England. For thos of you that saw it, he did 'King Arthur' from this past summer. Watching swordplay from good movies can be educational, especially for re-enactment or display type fighting.

So who's next? Competition or display? What's yer pleasure?

Hawkyns

[the Royaliste]

Interestin' read, Hawkyns!..Well, it sorta plays out like this..Since our fulltime involvement in piracy circles around sailing the ship, swordplay is only demonstrations of weaponry, and no competitive stuff. There are several members who fence, and many who practice stage combat. That said, sometimes coordinating sword play results in overlappin' schedules for some, so..My first mate and myself, in order to not have a 'void' in the swordplay arena, have taken up mock combat of our own devices; imitation of ship boardings. Since the weaponry aboard is all actual period stuff, and pretty much a maritime museum, we have built combat cutlasses centered around U.S. model 1917 blade stock, and our own hilts...This way, the wonderful blades on display suffer none, while allowing us the ability to play. We are integrating cutlass, sword, boarding axe, tomahawk (she is a F&I War era ship), pistol, grapple,and possibly pike.(I really want to add this, but it poses a big problem amongst tight tourist crowds) As this moves forward, we are looking at stage combat for a medium, but at present, rely on thirty years of trust, and try not to nick each other too bad....With a possible voyage up the mighty Miss in '06, we are accelerating thinking on this very topic.......next?

[crimsoncrow]

When I was in my early 20's I studied the Classic French Foil branch of fencing. A little rusty at it now, but can still hold my own. I carry a 42" OAL rapier on my baldric for Faires and a cutlass. I know my friend Tempest Fitzgerald has had training in Classic French Foil and Epee.

[Francois]

I have been in the SCA for 3 years. I originally wanted to fight broad sword with live steel and do a knight persona. When I went to my first SCA practice the fencing caught my attention. I think because the were using real blade and not sticks. the only thing I didn't like was the fact that they wore masks (I do understand why and accept it). Although I don't study from any specific manual I try to learn from those who I know fight period style. It is easer for me to learn by watching than reading it out of a book. My style of fighting is Italian and French. I use a 32" Del Tin rapier mounted on a sweep hilt I also use a 40" Schlager blade mounted on a sweep hilt. I have a Achlem dagger on a Spanish hilt. I also fight case of rapier

I also fight cutlass without any amour as Hawkyns describes. This is the live steel play I was looking for when I first joined the SCA. I use a Baggett cutlass for now. I am fortunate to have meet Hawkyns and be able to practice with him once a week. He has taught me a great deal on sword play and history . The man is a walking encyclopedia.

I just started to play with the LHA (Living History Association). They are a break off of the SCA. We fight rapier almost the same. The difference is we hit harder and can have physical contact including grappling except for the masks it looks more real than the SCA fighting.

The next thing I am about to try is wasters. I have a friend who picked up a set and wants to try them out.

François

[Tudor MercWench Smith]

Well, I'm just starting to learn stage combat and I'm not quite sure what we're going to be using sword wise - I'll have toask the instructor for details. I would love to learn more though, so I can stay in character with personna. I'm thinking some french style as well as some plain old cutlass brandishing. Just have to find someone to teach me is all . . .

[PyratePhil]

This be a bit anti-climactic, but I be a'specializin' only in Oriental weaponplay.

So iffin's ye have any questions on Taiji single- or double-edge, staff, spear, Wind/Fire Wheels, halberds, rope darts, Japanese swordplay, tonfa, nunchaku, sai, kama, shuriken, axe, chain, 3-section staff, knife, butterfly knife, kwan-dao, etc., etc., etc...

...gimme a holler!

[Diego Santana de la Vega]

Formally I am without training. Been fighten on the docks and board ship fer thirty plus years only half a right ear and three holes (all healed) 'pon me legs. I carry me a cutlass (fer use pon the ship we be boardin) and me (french)rapier (fer use pon land). Long knife in me right boot and short knife on me belt. Purse hangin behind me short knife.

[hurricane]

Our experience is very informal - hacking and thrusting at one another with blades. Nothing fancy, more something you'd probably see on deck historically than any fancy footwork or blade work. After all, the cutlass was mostly made for hacking wounds into people, not as a defensive tool from what I've seen. So we hack and thrust, use belaying pins, ropes, boarding axes, anything we can get our hands on in the heat of a battle. We don't work on stage combat because most of it is to, well, theatrical looking. Blades don't sound authentic unless that smashed against one another - same with punches -- 'course, we don't punch because that would create some real damage.

That said, some of the crewe is about to begin fencing and sword fighting formally. And I think that's a great pursuit as well... just not my thing.

But I've seen the faces of folks all gussied up in business attire gawk and run when they hear two blades smash against one another in a ballroom as we begin an impromptu fight over a wench. Now that's fun!

-- The Captain

[DurtyLillie]

1.Well then ye be talkin' SCA..society for creative anachronisms..(fer them that don't know)..and with all respect... There be the Pros and Cons of that.... and thare be some wonderful groups outside that sphere that are also quite formidable as well. enuf said?

2.Me I agrees, I learned theatre mostly. And grew up fightin' a wee bit in me clan fer fun at gatherins.And Capt Hurricane is so correct, the landlubbers in their finery do get quite awe struck at the sound of clashing metal...but it be the shiney crumby kind not the combat type...

havin' yer stage blades fixed afterward is time consumin.

3. Thanks fer bringin' this topic up mate as it be one-o-my-favoriates!

[Cap'n Pete Straw]

My training is with the epee. Got pretty darned good at it, but have not fenced in about 16 months, due to geographical move, so I am a bit rusty.

Anecdote: When I began acquiring my own fencing equipment, I had to purchase the epees and the mask (I can do only very limited work in metal), but the fabric stuff was not a challenge for me to sew. I whipped up a pair of fencing gloves (and later another pair), but then carefully designed my own pattern for a fencing jacket, modeled after photographs of circa 1900 jackets (i.e. buttons). The finished jacket was black, with red lining, and looked sharp as hell. I was a bit embarrassed when my fencing instructor informed me that black was

a color reserved only for the highest fencing Masters...

... I had to get real good real fast.

[DurtyLillie]

Ah I loves them weapons... but we gots ta get back to Black Powder..at some point.....(he he point)...all them fencin' and fancy wort aside......it was discussed at GREAT Length when this here pyracy pub cite started up mates... notice I be member #20....?...ah weapons....

Regards,

[Tempest Fitzgerald]

My training is with the epee. Got pretty darned good at it, but have not fenced in about 16 months, due to geographical move, so I am a bit rusty.

So, Captain Straw, you are a gentleman of the true Dueling persuasion. As to wether or not your old Master would concur, I would suggest some training in the Classic French Foil method. It is a more controlled discipline due to restricted strike zone perameters. Mastering said method will only improve your skills with the epee.

[Guest YeOldeSeaman]

This be a bit anti-climactic, but I be a'specializin' only in Oriental weaponplay.

I too like the Chinamen. They're small, yet voracious. Gives heart to ye ego.

[PyratePhil]

Aye, they be small - thet be why I needs ta eat at least two at a settin'...

[Guest YeOldeSeaman]

Arrr, 3 or more for me after a hard day of plunderin'.

[PyratePhil]

...but ye KNOW what happens a half-hour later...

[Hawkyns]

So, Captain Straw, you are a gentleman of the true Dueling persuasion. As to wether or not your old Master would concur, I would suggest some training in the Classic French Foil method. It is a more controlled discipline due to restricted strike zone perameters. Mastering said method will only improve your skills with the epee.

Not too interested in duelling, myself. I've studied epee and some foil, but wasn't impressed. I prefer the combat forms. It's finally getting some respect and is now being referred to as the Western Martial Arts.

Whole body target, offhand weapons, grappling, and the dreaded patella montante (rising kneecap to the cods) are more my style. I prefer edge to point, like to fight at about a 2 foot range and like the offensive use of the buckler. Silver, as I said, is more my mug of cider.

Duelling is just too stilted. Not enough adrenaline and right of way makes no sense to me.

Hawkyns

[PyratePhil]

A lot depends upon what your goal is...

Form is wonderful for its own sake...combat is something else entirely.

[the Royaliste]

Ah I loves them weapons... but we gots ta get back to Black Powder..at some point.....(he he point)...all them fencin' and fancy wort aside......it was discussed at GREAT Length when this here pyracy pub cite started up mates... notice I be member #20....?...ah weapons....

Regards,

Many things are rehashed here, lass....you would know that with steady observance, and altho you've been a 'forumite' for a long time, it's still about 'input', eh wot?..No hard feelin's, I sometimes feel the same myself, but new people wont do 'archival research' before runnin' their pie holes........

[Tudor MercWench Smith]

. . .the dreaded patella montante (rising kneecap to the cods) are more my style. . .

patella montante, huh? So there's a technical term? Must remember that one . . . that particular move is one of my favourites!

[Guest Turkish]

post removed

[the Royaliste]

Interestin' to see that with the present style 'round these parts, this seems to 'ave gotten waay off topic

[blackjohn]

I think that message escaped from the Jenna PotC movie thread...

[Guest Turkish]

ARRRR...

'n stuff.

[Guest YeOldeSeaman]

...but ye KNOW what happens a half-hour later...

Pickin the hair outta yer teeth and falsies. Arrr, I know.