kass Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 Okay me hearties, I have a question. I was looking at some pictures from the 1690s and I came across one of the Dauphine and she was wearing an outfit almost identical to one in a picture of a London courtesan in a copy of the Cryes I have. So it got me thinking: if courtesans were so well-off that they could dress as well as the Crown Princess of France, did they live rather fancy, priviledged lives? Now, I don't want to fall into the "Dangerous Beauty" trap of thinking that courtesans are the only liberated and educated women of the age. I want to know about the real lives of high-class courtesans in London during the last quarter of the 17th century and the first quarter of the 18th. I'm also wondering about men. Was there a class of men who could reasonably pass for gentlemen but who really earned their livings by gambling or thievery? I'm kind of envisioning a 1690s version of Simon Templar "The Saint" -- the gentleman burglar who spends his winters in Monte Carlo. This may all be a fantasy on my part. But if I can think of any period in history when it would be possible to look like a gentleman and really be a criminal, it would be the early Baroque period. So if you have any suggestions for reading material, please advise. And yes, I've practically memorized Moll Flanders. :) Thanks, Kass Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Seahawke Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 Ok here are couple of books you might be interested in .... "Courtesans: Money, Sex and Fame in the Nineteenth Century" By Katie Hickman During the 18th and 19th centuries a small group of women rose from obscurity to positions of great power and wealth. Men ruined themselves in their attempts to gain favours, yet the courtesans were desired not just for sex. They were accomplished women, linguists, musicians, who exerted a powerful influence over fashion and society. They were not received at Court, but inhabited their own parallel world - the demi-monde - complete with its own hierarchies, etiquette and protocol. "Dr Johnson's London" Liza Picard Liza Picard's celebrated account of London life from 1740-1770. London was the biggest city in Europe by 1750 - crime, from pickpockets to highwaymen, was rife. The opulence of the rich and the comfort of the 'middling sort' contrasted sharply with the back-breaking labour and pitiful wages of the washerwomen, coal-heavers, silk-weavers and chimney sweeps. The author has used the diaries, journals, newspapers and memoirs of the time to produce an insightful glimpse into the everyday life of Londoners in the 18th century. Lady Cassandra Seahawke Captain of SIREN'S RESURRECTION, Her fleet JAGUAR'S SPIRIT, ROARING LION , SEA WITCH AND RED VIXEN For she, her captains and their crews are.... ...Amazon by Blood... ...... Warrior by Nature...... ............Pirate by Trade............ If'n ye hear ta Trill ye sure to know tat yer end be near... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queenrogue Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 HUZZAH for Moll Flanders ! "Time Flies When Your Having RUM!!!!" "But everyone talks with a British accent when they drink." Stow Away on the Juryrig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted August 12, 2004 Author Share Posted August 12, 2004 Thanks, Lady Seahawke. I'm afraid Hickman's book might be too early for my interests. But I've had my eye on Picard's for some time. Thanks for the recommendation. Queen Rogue: yeah baby! Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjohn Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 You really do need a copy of Wits, Wenchers and Wantons... and 1700... oh! I just checked Amazon, they've got a special! 1700 and Dr. Johnson together for $42. Blackjohn My Home on the Web The Pirate Brethren Gallery Dreams are the glue that holds reality together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted August 12, 2004 Author Share Posted August 12, 2004 Oh, and I think I have a Amazon.com gift certificate for $43... Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted August 12, 2004 Author Share Posted August 12, 2004 Got 'em! I dug through my mail and found a bunch of partially-used Amazon gift certificates and plundered myself five new books! "Wits, Wenchers and Wantons" "1700" "Dr. Johnson's London" and two books by Picard, both called "Restoration": "Restoration London: Engaging Anecdotes and Tantalizing Trivia from the Most Magnificent and Renowned City of Europe" and "Restoration London: From Poverty to Pets, from Medicine to Magic, from Slang to Sex, from Wallpaper to Women's Rights" Woo hoo! Plunder! Kass Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Maria Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 William Hogarth a Rakes Progress and another one I've forgotten that deals with a courtesean. I'll have to look it up when I get home tonight. Also the book that Dangerous Beauty was based on An Honest Courtesan. Look at almost anything by Henry Fielding. Daniel DeFoe, Tobias Smoellett, & Lawrence Strene. Red Maria The Soul of Indecency Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted August 12, 2004 Author Share Posted August 12, 2004 Thanks, Red Maria. I'm looking for a little earlier than the work of Hogarth and Fielding, but I adore them both. And Moll Flanders is my idol. :) I know Dangerous Beauty was based on An Honest Courtesan, but it's the wrong country and the wrong time period. A 1993 book on a Venetian poet and prostitute from the 16th century isn't going to help me study late 17th century courtesans in London. Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Maria Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 Hogarth did do a piece that was late 17th century that would fit into your criteria. Again the name eludes me so I'll have to check at home tonight. I recently picked up 3 books of Hogarth material at my library's duplicate sale. One looks like 18th c. binding. A thought now. Nell Gwyn might be a good person to look into. Red Maria The Soul of Indecency Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted August 12, 2004 Author Share Posted August 12, 2004 If you would be so kind as to look up that name, Red Maria, I really would appreciate it. Nell Gwyn... Yeah. Perhaps a little bit early but taken in comparison to the 18th century stuff, perhaps rather useful... THANKS! Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redhand Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 Kass- Don't forget those Highwaymen! There are several book that deal with the lives of those scoundrels, many of which were gentlemen who had fallen on hard times, or were looking for a bit of adventure....much like land-locked pirates, mostly late 1600 to early mid 1700's. One of the books I have on the subject is "Stand & Deliver" which I picked up at a used book shop, is a interesting biography of many of the well known, and some not so well known highwaymen, ie: Plunkett & MacKlean, Dick Turpin and others. Mostly they wound up doing the Tyburn jig! I'll check my library for some other titles. Cheers Redhand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted August 12, 2004 Author Share Posted August 12, 2004 Thanks. I did forget about highwaymen. I kinda had Plunkett and McLain kicking around in my head when I asked the questions. If you find any titles in your library, I would appreciate knowing about them. Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Pyrate Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 Ha! Plunkett and MacLean is great! Campy and anachronistic, but great! I recommend a book called "The Thieves' Opera". Great insight into European history through London's crime rings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Maddox Roberts Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 You might want to look into Neal Stephenson's huge trilogy that began with "Quicksilver," continues with "The Confusion" and will end with "The System of the World." They deal with the whole of Europe in the late 16th-early 17th centuries and involve many of the people who created the modern world: Newton, Leibnitz, the Royal Society, the inventors of modern finance in the Low countries, plus lots of pirates, galley slaves, Charles II, Louis XIV, Prince William of Orange, a former harem slave from an unpronounceable country who becomes a spy and financial adviser to French royalty, and a Rogue called Half-Cocked Jack (due to an accident with a red-hot iron being applied to cauterize syphilitic lesions. ouch.) Jack is a great swordsman and adventurer, despite his loss. a great read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Maria Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 If you would be so kind as to look up that name, Red Maria, I really would appreciate it.Nell Gwyn... Yeah. Perhaps a little bit early but taken in comparison to the 18th century stuff, perhaps rather useful... THANKS! The book is Engraving by Hogarth 101 Prints Sean Shesgreen ed. Dover Press, 1973 ISBN 0486224791 It's illustrations to the poem Hudibras by Samuel Butler. Looking at it again it's English Civil War period but the clothes etc. could be a bit later. The other one I was thinking of was A Harlots Progress by Hogarth. I found this book at the Library's duplicate sale today A Rake and his Times by John Harold Wilson (who wrote a book on Nell Gywn titled Nell Gywn, Royal Mistress) Fredick Mulller Ltd. 1954 about Goerge Villiers the second Duke of Buckingham. Maybe get it on an ILL or www.Bookfinder.com. Red Maria The Soul of Indecency Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted August 14, 2004 Author Share Posted August 14, 2004 Thanks, Maria. I was wondering if you meant the Harlot's Progress. I found it in a web search for Hogarth yesterday. Thanks for the other information as well. Good stuff all! Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Seahawke Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 OH, found a couple of titles you, I believe will want..al non-fiction... The Book of the Courtesans - A catalogue of their virtues... by Susan Griffin. the Courtesans - THe Demi-Monde in 19th Century France by Joanne Richardson. Has actual pics of Courtesans ...and some of their Gent clients. Some of the pics are drawings others are actually photographs...you might find it interesting. Courtesans - Money, Sex and Fame in the 19th Century by Katie Hickman Again has drawings/paintings and some actual photographs then on another note you might want to see the oriental equivilant... Geisha by Liza Dalby...has pics of some geisha from the 1800's in it... these books detail some of the most famous courtesans of the 18th and 19th centuries...details with names of the courtesans and the names of their wealthy and famous clients... hope these help you with your research...smile. Lady Cassandra Seahawke Captain of SIREN'S RESURRECTION, Her fleet JAGUAR'S SPIRIT, ROARING LION , SEA WITCH AND RED VIXEN For she, her captains and their crews are.... ...Amazon by Blood... ...... Warrior by Nature...... ............Pirate by Trade............ If'n ye hear ta Trill ye sure to know tat yer end be near... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Maria Posted August 24, 2004 Share Posted August 24, 2004 Kass I came across some references in the endnotes to the edition of Laroon's Criers here in the Library. The Criers & Hawkers of London: Engravings & Drawing by Marcellus Laroon edited bt Sean Shesgreen, Stanford University Press 1990. For plate 51 lists London Spy a periodical by Edward Ward. There are bit about courteseans in it. You might try: The London-spy compleat in eighteen parts /by Ned Ward ; with an introduction by Ralph Straus London Casanova society, 1924 or The London spy : the vanities and vices of the town exposed to view by Ned Ward ; edited with notes by Arthur L. Hayward ; with eight full-page illustrations London : Cassell and Co., Ltd., [1927] In fact Master Edawrd Ward seems to have a rather prolific author. There are poems, travel logs (including Jamaica), maritime, ale, prositutes, & London Clubs. His dates are 1667-1731 so I think that cover your area. You proably could get the books I mentioned by ILL or on www.bookfinder.com. Red Maria The Soul of Indecency Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Maria Posted August 24, 2004 Share Posted August 24, 2004 Just came across these: Libertines and radicals in early modern London : sexuality, politics, and literary culture, 1630-1685 / James Grantham Turner Cambridge ; New York : Cambridge University Press, 2002 ISBN 0521782791 The restoration rake-hero transformations in sexual understanding in seventeenth-century England /Harold Weber Madison, Wis. : University of Wisconsin Press, 1986 ISBN 029910690X Red Maria The Soul of Indecency Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted August 26, 2004 Author Share Posted August 26, 2004 Thanks, Maria. Those books sound wonderful. I've just finished reading Wits, Wenchers and Wantons that Blackjohn suggested. It rambled all over the 17th and 18th centuries, but the info was very good. I even found out that one of the most famous courtesans and later madams of the Covent Garden area in the early 18thc was nicknamed "The Empress" which is a joke nickname that my friends call me. So it was kind of a fun discovery. Again, thanks for the help. Kass Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshuaRed Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 Gawd I love Plunkett & Maclane! What a cool flick! Very underrated if you ask me. Now then, for another cool look at 18th century sex, check out The Floating Brothel, about how England began rounding up prostitutes to ship to New Holland. A bit late for your period, but still a good read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Maria Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 Thanks, Maria. Those books sound wonderful. I've just finished reading Wits, Wenchers and Wantons that Blackjohn suggested. It rambled all over the 17th and 18th centuries, but the info was very good. I even found out that one of the most famous courtesans and later madams of the Covent Garden area in the early 18thc was nicknamed "The Empress" which is a joke nickname that my friends call me. So it was kind of a fun discovery. Again, thanks for the help. Kass No problem! I don't know which edition of Laroon's Criers you are using but mine has primary source commentary. Plate no. 50 is titledThe Squire of Alsatia and is supposed to be on a real person named Bully Dawson. Bully Dawson was of low birth but dressed as a man of quality in order to lures men into gambling and women of fortune in marriage. Sounds like the kind of guy you're looking for. Also plate no. 51 Madame Creswell was a coutesan of note till her beauty faded. She then turned into a bawd luring young women into prostitution. Sounds like something up your ally too. There is an endnote saying she's in Dictionary of National Biography but I haven't had a chance to look her up. I found a copy of London Spy on bookfinder.com for $30.00. There were some others for $50.00 if you're interested. I try to get primary source material whenever I can. Red Maria The Soul of Indecency Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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