patterns

[LadyBarbossa]

Some of you may have seen this already.

But for those of you who have not... it's more a quick & easy access now to get ahold of a pattern to make 18th c stays!

Was at JoAnn Fabrics here in Cedar Rapids... looked at the pattern books.. Butterick has a new pattern out to make 18th & 19th c stays & corsets! I'm BEYOND happy, if you are someone like me who has one pattern it's strapless. These new patterns allow for straps or you can not have the straps if you wish!

Various good patterns to different eras. But, I'm still not all that impressed with the 18th or even 17th c selection. There was one dress/gown I thought the pattern was rather dead on.. if not close. A couple patterns for gents would be rathe close from Butterick, as well as McCalls. Simplicity is still good for other eras.. in my opinion.

For good 18th patterns, Jas. Townsend & sons has a fair sized selection as well.

But... figured I would state something. The pattern for stays is jsut beyond fantastic!

Butterick also has a couple patterns for hats. Those the 18th c hats are rather difficult.

Now... to find a way to make shoes!

[AkashaZuul]

So I was skeptical when I read your post. . . after all, if you've tried to make real 1700's stays you'll go "oh yeah right. . . a *pattern*. . . sure THAT'LL work. . ."

But I just looked at the Butterick website and it's the right shape! I am heading out the door as we speak and adding a trip to Jo-Ann's on my rounds to pick it up.

It looks almost 1760's-1770's style, and I'm really curious how they suggest fitting such a garment in the instructions. I'll report back after I crack the pattern open and check it out.

This could be way cool, although it figures that I'd find this out just mere days after finally struggling through drafting and making my own pattern from scratch (i.e. Norah Waugh's Corsets and Crinolines).

Thank you so much for posting this, Lady Barbossa.

[AkashaZuul]

So I have the pattern now, and I'm trying to sort it out. Looks like they did a pretty decent job at putting it together, and they have a great diagram for "Boning by Numbers" i.e. where they all go. Neat! Although they have you sew the top pieces and lining seperately (not period), they do have you bind the edges which is nice. They also have you remove the plastic bones from their fabric casings and insert seperately, instead of the usual method of sewing the casings onto the inside of the lining. Very cool.

I'm not certain about fitting, however. There are no special fitting instructions, so I'm curious to see how that will go. I'll make a test garment and get back to y'all.

[LadyBarbossa]

I have yet to buy mine. But I was highly impressed with it. I've a pattern for stays from Jas Townsend... but without a shoulder strap.

These stays from Butterick have a strap.

They help with a guide, but... if you have books or knowledge of stays of the era... you can fully bone them or bone them along the seams.

Try not to use plastic. Reeding is great for summer, despite needing replacing constantly. But they work so well. Metal is ok especially for winter cause I have been told they absorb the body heat. So, if you have the stays & wear them outside at re-enactment events... you will get hot.

What I like about this pattern, is that they have the option of front or/& back lacing! The pattern I have only allows for back lacing.

Another pattern to make any Elizabeth Swann outfit... there is a pattern out there that is rather close to her nightgown & robe.

It's by Simplicity, pattern # 5188. It's more a late Victorian, but with imagination & some altering slightly.... it can look like what Elizabeth wore.

The great part is... you also DON'T have to make it like Elizabeth's... but can make your own type of nightgown & robe!

[AkashaZuul]

I'm actually using cable ties at the moment to bone stays. They're stiff but flexible, and seemed to work really really well. My usual choice is spiral steel for side seams, and flat steels for extra bust support and front/back closures. I didn't want to try cane since I've heard it falls apart too easily and makes washing the stays impossible.

As far as boning is concerned, I love the drawings in Corsets and Crinolines as a blueprint for where the bones go. I just keep trying to study as many extant garments as I can on the web and in books to try and understand the boning logic. My recent pair are the 1770's version that's shown half boned, made from just a front and a back panel. I want to try making the multiple pattern piece fully boned version on the next page of the book, but I'm still not sure about fitting. Now that I have an idea of how your body is supposed to be squished, I think I know what to look for with multiple pieces.

I actually got email from my corset idol Ian, who says he uses Rigelene in his historical stays. I emailed him back to ask him where he gets Rigelene in anything other than 12mm width since that's obviously too wide, and we'll see what he says. He swears it works almost as well as real whalebone, which he has also used for museum work. His website is worth checking out since he makes stuff like this:

I hope he comes to the US to teach classes someday. His work makes me swoon.

The Staymaker

[LadyBarbossa]

Yeah.. reeding needs to be replaced constantly & doesn't allow for washing... but, that's why some stays had the leather trims at the top & bottom to allow for the boning to be removed, changed or even washing the stays.

Rigelene? Not heard of that.

Yes, please. Would like to know more about this. If it's better than metal & won't be as warming.

That's the reason I won't use the metal boning cause I do re-enacting & I have to be authentic.. but metal boning absorbs the heat.. so, it's not good to wear heat absorbing items when the temp outside if 90+ degrees.

A nice pair of stays there. Fancy material used.

I looked at some of the items made at Colonial Williamsburg, even at the Smithsonian on display there.

I've found I can take any pattern & be able to alter it to my own specifications. The stays pattern I have, I didn't have to. Works rather well.

Stays are interesting. & it depends on your class. Upper class used them for fashion mostly, to have that slim, trim form, with the appearance that you had breasts even when you didn't. But for some of us women who have them, it's rather interesting.

Women of working class, they were not so tight, & used often as a back brace. Oh, how I LOVE them that way... especially for us ladies of the camp as we stand over the pits & cook to even drag men off the battlefields or whatever.

With stays... what I have learned... it all boils down to your class. Then go from there on how your stays will appear, not only how they shape you, but the material used.

In "Costume Close up" by Linda Baumgarten, there is a few pictures of stays from the era. As well as other clothes.

[AkashaZuul]

Rigilene is that boning they sell at most fabric stores that you can actually sew on the garment, through the bone, not the plastic pieces in the fabric casing. It's the stuff we all make fun of that you get in your 1980's Gunnie Sax prom dresses. It seems if you use *lots* of it, as in fully boned like that orange corset, you get strength in numbers. As I said, I was shocked at how stiff my cable tie corset turned out, and even might have liked it a little less stiff. I'll let you know what I find out about the narrower width Rigilene. I suppose it would be better than solid plastic even if you had to use two bones per channel. . . it has holes in it so it would probably breathe better. And I cannot even imagine the hell of unpicking all those handstitches I did to get the stinking 100+ bones out just to wash the dang thing.

Costume Close Up is on its way from the store at Williamsburg as of yesterday. Boy was that hard to find, not even on Amazon, but it has come highly recommended by several costume folks I know. Can't wait to read it and compare to Waugh, Hunniset, and Arnold's stuff.

I find that fitting patterns to myself would be greatly assisted if I had 2 more arms and eyes on stalks mounted on my derrier. I can fit corsets to anyone else but myself!

Did you look through his website and see the front-lacing Fustian stays? Although I like the high-class look of the orange ones the best, the workmanship and fit on the Fustian is unparalleled.

[Dream Wench]

Isn't it ironic that many women back then would sit and whisper "I can't wait till these damned things go out of fashion" and yet many of us can't wait to get into one ! I like the muffin mashers, but I dread not being able to breathe, or flex properly, so most likely, I would have to lean toward the looser fit, and have "pretend" muffins..I guess, and not harm my girls. I will simply have to buy one when the day comes. I give credit to anyone who has the skill, or desire to make them.

[Capt Grey]

Lady Barbossa and AkashaZuul: You both have imparted an entire semester's worth of costuming information. I tip my hat to you.

I am very grateful. I will check out the Butterick pattern ASAP.

[AkashaZuul]

Hahaha. . . thank you, Capt Grey! Maybe we should continue posting in this forum about costuming techniques, possibly under a new topic heading? I love these discussions. . . I always feel inspired by talking to other people about their work ane experience in sewing.

For example, I just came home from my client's house and found "The Costume Technician's Handbook 3rd Ed." by Rosemary Ingham, and "The Art of Crewel Embroidery" by Mildred Davis in my mailbox. The Costume Technician's book was recommended to me by a bunch of people as having a great set of instructions on pattern drafting. This has always been a weak area for me; I can take any commercial pattern and fit it to myself (satisfactorily) or others (much better), but seem to repeatedly fail when creating stuff from scratch. Creating patterns is generally done in one of two methods:

1. Flat drafting, where you design the pattern using math, etc. and create a basic block pattern from a person's measurements to base all other patterns on.

2. Draping, where you pin folds of fabric to create your design on a 3-dimensional person or form.

I haven't really spent enough time to develop robust skills in flat drafting since I seem to get regularly confused when converting from block to pattern, and never trust my own measurements. I am pretty good at draping, but again not on myself. My proposed solution is to now use my recent finished corset and pad out a dress form with my measurements in the corset and drape garments on that. I hope it works!!

Either that, or bribe someone who knows how to do it to trade fittings. . . .

[Captain Raevon Morgan]

I am greatly impressed with the knowledge that Akasha and Lady Barbossa have discussed here. I, too, am a seamstress and always find it interesting to discuss the trade and such.

Also, I have seen the patterns that were discussed here and I was impressed by them. In all of my years of sewing, I have seen patterns for stays come and go and some that I just want to impale myself before I even finish the pattern.

I, too, would like to see more of these discussions.

[Capt Grey]

If you live in Southern California there is an excellent Costumers Convention in July. I know a couple of the instructors and the classes are just fantastic. I'll try to find the web site and post it.

A friend of mine who is a costume designer uses large graph paper for her patterns.

I am a no-talent hack who just started sewing Jedi robes a couple of years ago. Compared to my friend who makes Victorian ballgowns, I'm a "wannabe".

But that's okay. I'm having fun.

[LadyBarbossa]

::removed large black feathered hat; bows elegantly:: Thank ye, Grey! Though.. I'm still learning a lot of the tricks of the trade. There is SOOOO much information, just blows my mind!

Oh, the book is fantastic! Shows good detail of how outfits were sewn & more. Yeah, it's abook I highly recommend to anyone. It's the only one I have besides "Tidings of the 18th Century" by Beth Gilgun & the Distaff Sketchbook.... the other books I have are of cavalry greats during the Rev War like Tarleton, Lee, Washington(George's cousin) & Marion.

I attempted to look at the sight, but the majority of the pictures would not show for me.

The stays... I have them loosely sewn on the top & bottom... where I can replace the reeding whenever I want.

The stays do rather well in forming a proper figure even with the thinnest & flexible boning.

& as to wanting to wear one... takes bravery. Well, not really. Making them is interesting. Wearing them is a skill. If you have them too tight & can't breathe, then you are SO wearing them wrong! I love them. They provide good back support as well as good posture. Breathe up, not out. gives good figure.

LOL... as to bending over... ladies... if I drop something, the stays are a GREAT excuse to get gents to pick items up for you. :) Guaranteed to work.

I'm finishing up a pair of breeches by using a mix of flat drafting & an old pair of denim jeans. It's a challenge especially when they have to be done by hand.

Made a blue dress that way as well. I've taken a couple patterns & altered them to more like what I see in the books I have. It's fun doing stuff like this.

LOL, Jedi robes are still a challenge nonetheless. ANY costume is a challenge! If you sew, I found out people will worship you for it. If you sew REALLY good... I don't know WHAT status they will give you other than ask you to make costumes for them.

Would be cool to go to a costumers convention.

& yes... chatting about costuming is fun! SO much one can learn from people. What books you ca pick up.. hints... & where to get materials & all. I find it rather unfriendly when some people are not willing to release their secrets or where they get materials. Cause, like me.. I'm stuck in podunk central where there is little selection on authentic materials required to make 18th c period attire. I need to find who to go through - which the stores won't help - to get good authentic materal.

Good to talk to everyone about this.

Again, the pattern for the stays... is rather a blessing I think. Since I have been wanting another pair of stays.. this time with a shoulder strap... this pattern looks a tad pinch different than the one I have.. which is ok by me.

[Mad Woman Cheryl]

AkashaZuul, I have used Heat Duct Fasteners (the big heavy duty cable ties) as stays since I have a fuller figure. I only made the mistake of trying to drive my minivan while wearing the corset. The shelf was a little too high and I couldn't sit in the drivers seat comfortably...thank goodness I wasn't driving very far.

Capt. Grey....Jedi robes, huh? You should try making a klingon outfit...there are no patterns. Oh what fun we costumers are!

[AkashaZuul]

You really should go nuts and draft one for yourself from Corsets and Crinolines. It was fun and surprisingly easy once I figured out what the front and back pieces were supposed to look like, and measured myself to make sure the size was right. I made a mock-up in corrugated cardboard first. . . 4 pieces, lace up back and front just to try it out. I made sure to BEND the cardboard first on its corrogated bits to give it a curve, but since I did it on the "long cardboard grain", it didn't bend sideways at all. I quickly learned that having your armholes too high is asking for pain, especially in the back, and also that thick cardboard will give you massive cleavage!

The trick was knowing how wide to make the neckline, using enough duct tape to hold the sides together, and cutting the tabs open so that they bent at the waist on the sides. You can imagine that making a muslin mockup, even with bones, isn't going to show you how your figure is going to react to a fully boned stiff pair of stays.

Now I'm on round two. This one is going to be in thinner less-rough fabric (sapphire blue silk dupioni) with two inner layers of onasaburg heavy cotton, and a lining of black heavy cotton twill. It's going to have a wider neckline and much thinner straps, as well as not cut into my underarm at the back. It will also be less fully boned.

Oh hey and about that Butterick corset pattern, make sure to measure the underarm to waist measurement. I have a feeling that since they didn't take that into account as part of the fitting, it'll be the wrong size for a lot of people.

You guys are great. I'm loving this thread. No pun intended.

[KW Pirate]

Wow. I just have to say that you guys are amazing. I'm just starting work on a pirate coat, but it's been a several years since I've done any sewing. I have also discovered that Key West has the WORST fabric stores in the world, and it's 150 miles to a decent one. I'm working on a road trip. Anyway keep up the thread, i love reading the tips and stuff!

Deadly Aim

Key West Pirate

[LadyBarbossa]

Have fun with your coat, mate! It's fantastic to have one.

None of the current general patterns out there are correct. But with some altering, can be made correct. The sleeves are the major part, since the pattern is rather off compared to the actual, authentic patterns & authentic attire of the time.

I hear ya there. Though, I feel sorry for ya, mate. That's not all the worlds best to have low grade stores. Getting a hold of decent material for your attire is indeed a challenge.

All I can say is... ask & someone will answer... guaranteed.

[AkashaZuul]

If a pirate coat you're makin', buy steal borrow or otherwise plunder yourself a look at Norah Waugh's "The Cut of Men's Clothes". A somewhat thin book considering the wealth of patterns inside for specific men's coats in the late 1600's through 1700's. (The women's version is twice as thick!)

Grab one of those revolutionary war patterns like Butterick 3072 (I like this one) and compare the way the pieces are cut to what you want out of the book, and go from there. It's generally how straight the front edge is cut, collar or no collar, and whether or not it has skirts.

Butterick 3072 Revolutionary Coat

I have yet to find a commercial pattern of any sort for something like Captain Barbossa's coat with the pleated skirts, but once you see how they're made in the book, you'll have one of those "Oh!" moments.

When in doubt about fabric, shop online!

[Dream Wench]

That's a nice basic pattern. The cutaway coat seems more sensible for summer use. I also love the mens and womens coats with full skirts. I enjoy the way they swirl and move. During the 1970's there were a few designers who made romantic clothing, especially the Poet shirts.

[AkashaZuul]

So here's a rare find. . . R. I. Davis' book on Men's Seventeenth and Eighteenth century fashion on eBay.

R.I. Davis Men's Costume book on eBay

I paid more for my copy than the opening price. . . . Great book. If you're interested in sewing men's pirate coats, this is definitely the one to get (other than Norah Waugh's Cut of Men's Clothes). This even has better photos than Waugh's book.

I hope some lucky pirate buys it and makes a whole slew of Barbossa coats.

Continuing with the original thread, I still haven't tried out the stays pattern, although I finally finished hand-drafted stays #2 in blue silk dupioni to wear for the Pirate Circus last weekend. . . . I'll post photos when I get some.

[LadyBarbossa]

Aye.. fair enough. I've not looked through the book myself. Though I know it's available via Jas. Townsend & Sons as well.

They've also Waugh's books on both men & women.. plus many other books of fashion from the 18th c. Even a couple that extend into the 16th, 17th & 19th c.

I found one pattern a year ago that worked well enough, though I had to make adjustments on the sleeves to make it more period.... Though, I can't seem to find that pattern now. I know it was a slightly older one & they seem to have discontinued a couple since then.

But it is a fantastic idea is to take current patterns, adjust them to the actual proper look of the era.

& LOVING the deals going on at JoAnn Fabrics & Crafts! I've bought 4 patterns from McCalls already. Didn't really need anything from Simplicity. Though, I know there will be a couple patterns from Butterick I will SOOO want! The hat pattern, stays, & maybe a couple outfit patterns. I will be SOOO stocked up on patterns to make some fantastic outfits. :)

[Rumba Rue]

Excuse me while I go gaa-gaa over all this wonderful wealth of information that I will probably never use. LOL! Being a person who has way too much difficulty reading how to put things together (I have A.D.D.) I just end up doing what looks like it's suppose to, though not always by the exact pattern.

I do appreciate the value of those who can do things I can't- bless you!

Rumba Rue

**To infinity and beyond!**

[blackjohn]

Hahaha. . . thank you, Capt Grey! Maybe we should continue posting in this forum about costuming techniques, possibly under a new topic heading? I love these discussions. . . I always feel inspired by talking to other people about their work ane experience in sewing.

AkashaZuul, you are my hero!!!

Or heroine, if you prefer.

I love these types discussions too. Just reading this thread (oops, bad pun) makes me want to pick up the scissors and go find that dark green wool hiding in the basement. It needs to be made into a coat!

Blackjohn

[AkashaZuul]

Okay, so I'm someone's hero now. . . that's a bit weird. Me, a hero? When did that happen? I must have missed the email. . .

If anything I say winds up inspiring people to sew more, I'm a happy girl! Good luck sewing with that wool, blackjohn. Post photos so we can see how it's coming along.

[Black Syren]

I found this site lookin up patterns with my mom..

Patterns of Time

They have a little of everything. just thought to post it here to share with you.