The Great Debate

[DuCouer]

Well Historically speaking...Pirates took what ever they captured and then adapted it to their needs. In the Cariribean during the 16th and 17th century where there was "no pean behind the line" The English fought the Dutch the The French fought the English and everybdy fought the Spanish.

Spanish ships in the Main carried large amounts of gold, and they often had large crews consisting not only sailors but soldiers as well...and yes they wore Breast plates and Morion helmets and carried pikes...When in a pirate movie has one ever seen a pike.

My point is...and forgive the redundancy of the History lesson...Whear what is practical...what is comfortable for the climate..and you will not only look like a pirate (Hollywood or otherwise), but will also be historically accurate.

For a great book on Pirate stuff..including accessories and Weapons...check out Osprey Press, Elite series...Elizabethan Seadogs, and Buccaneers 1620-1700 both written by Angus Konston.

[John_Young]

Aye! I have th' Pirates & Privateers (17-1800s) from that same series... but I like the Buccaneer book better.

[Rumba Rue]

I likes RumbaRue's group who claim they are more "hysterically" accurate than historically accurate. 

I prefers this look fer me Captain Hook:

Kin I haves him on me birthday cake, Rumba? 

Sorry t'interrupt yer discussion but this Captain be likin' the silly and irrelevent sometimes. 

And worth repeating again and again!

Capt. Grey I love your "hysterically accurate" comment - right on!

Rumba Rue

**If you can't baffle 'em with brillance, then baffle 'em with you know what!**

[hurricane]

I'm definitely with the hysterically accurate side - crowds want to be entertained for the most part and I've never had one person in 20 years complain about apparel or accessories being historically inaccurate. You can be whipped up in your finest period threads and still not bring the essence of piracy to life - and that's what most commoners want. Now this goes for non ren/SCA/re-enactment type events. I stay away from those like the plague can it's too tough to play with the people... Huzzah! to those who seek historical accuracy. But give me a smiling child, his willing mother and his absent father any time and I'll show them what piratin's all about! (argh!)

[Cire]

Hurricane! A mother and her child? Better seriously hope the father doesn't show up....

[Iron Bess]

Hurricane! A mother and her child? Better seriously hope the father doesn't show up....

Heh heh.... and 'tis known that no matter who or what ye be, the most dangerous place in the world to to find yer self...

....is between a mother and her child.

Even if yer a Pirate.

[piratelassie]

tis true.

[Sjöröveren]

In the Cariribean during the 16th and  17th century where there was "no pean behind the line" 

I always figgered a pirate could pee where ever he wanted.

Sorry, but I just can't resist a straight line.

[Spydre Rogue]

Arrr...

This be me minde on th' subjickt: History be wot comes at th' pointe o' a quill; originatin' from an equally pointed head. Whilst pyracy be wot comes at th' pointe o' a blade; originatin' from an equally pointed argyumint.

An' them wot hangs on th' words o' historians, swings from th' ends o' yardarms.

So sez I.

-Spydre

//^@^\\

[Red Bess]

Hurricane! A mother and her child? Better seriously hope the father doesn't show up....

Heh heh.... and 'tis known that no matter who or what ye be, the most dangerous place in the world to to find yer self...

....is between a mother and her child.

Even if yer a Pirate.

Of course, this be especially true if the mother is a pirate!

[Zorg]

Some of the accuracy stuff drives me crazy, mostly when there's really no agreement about dates on stuff, but people still try to set out hard and fast guidelines. So much of the Renfaire stuff is just plain wrong, making the Elizabethans to be a good deal more primative and closer to middle ages technologies, fashions, and learning than they were.

Im currently in a bruhaha about just WHEN the transitions from snaphaunce to English lock to Doglock occured. One of the SCA sites is about a century off on its dates for this, others are too early, from what i can tell, but all of them are ABsolutely CORRECT! Just ask em.

Sigh

More wine. Too early in the evening to be this sober.....

[Captain_MacNamara]

I try for as accurate of a look as possible, but when it comes down to it... if it looks good, and is plausible, go for it. I carry a flintlock, even though they weren't invented until the early 1600's (I'm currently portraying the mid to late 1500's) I have a nice doublet with nice buttons on it, even though one of the "Know it all's" in my local SCA group claim that buttons weren't invented until the mid-1700's... Then there's the one oddball person who has some degree in medieval history that claims that no form of firearms existed until 1650 or so... No one really knows anything, as history is just one narrow-minded opinion of a person who happened to write it down... As long as obvious anachronisms are avoided (carrying a colt .45 revolver instead of a flintlock), then who's to say a person's gear isn't plausible for their period? Just use a little common sense, and most people won't bother you about it... and if you've done your research, and someone argues with you on something, then politely ask them for documentation that they're opinion is correct.

[Hawkyns]

I think I'll weigh in on the last 2 posts, since I am the Master Gunner and Guild Master for the Guild of St. Barbara. That is the group dedicated to expanding knowledge and use of black powder in the SCA. I'm also the Captayne General of artillery at Pennsic, and, as such, on the staff.

First, the English lock appears in the second quarter of the 17th century. It is in common use on pistols by the English Civil War and hangs around a bit after that, but is eventually supplanted by the French lock, which most of us recognise as the common flintlock. As such, it is out of period for the Society, which ends at 1600.

As far as the idiot who said firearms weren't invented until 1650, show him the manuscript of Walter de la Millemete that dates to 1326. It's not the first time I've heard this idiocy, and it generally traces back to the attitude that people don't want their Society contaminated by 'guns'. They put the date of firearms to coincide with the end of the Society.

The Guild exists to bring black powder to the Society. Since there is a resistance, we are doing it in a way that must be 1000% justifiable historically. All firearms nust predate 1600. That means handgonnes, matchlocks, wheellocks, and snaphaunces only. The one exception is a flintlock that has been modified to look like a snaphaunce externally.

Why do we do this? Well, there have been problems with blackpowder in the Society, and I hate to say it here, but the majority of the problems have been caused by pirates. People in out of period garb, carrying out of period weapons, firing them at the wrong time and place. Not all, true, but from what is in my files, certainly the majority. So we are hard assed about authenticity. That way there is no legitimate reason to come down on us. We teach, both practical and theory, as well as the history. Safety is number one priority. there are a bunch of us who'll teach firearms at the drop of a hat, we teach at Pennsic, and have a good reputation of helping the marshals by firing signal guns. If you're going tgo be there, put on your Elizbethan kit (or earlier )and come on down. We are also on Yahoogroups as SCA-gunners.

Hawkyns

Master of the Laurel for Blackpowder Firearms Research and Practice

[John_Young]

What date does the Society end at?

[Hawkyns]

What date does the Society end at?

1600

[John_Young]

Hmmm.... Sir Francis Drake's Raid on St Augustine falls under that then.... thank ye.

[Grendle]

Well, mates, if ye can read a bit, then I am obviously a newly on this year board thingy, but in me own not-so-umble opinin', the question is what yer likes ter do, not what some jackanapes, pencil gnawin', clipboard toting ne'erdobad thinks o' what yer doin'.

I was a member of a medieval recreation society back in the way dark dim past, and we showed the GPs a fine, entertainin' and occasionally mildy bloody ole time as we whacked and slashed and rolled about on the ground. One o' the boys even took to chewing alkaselzers to foam at the mouth (he was real pop-you-lar with the ladies, you can betcher bottom farthing). But then the organizers got involved. Perhaps it was just that some of the members got old. I dunno, but after a gap of a few years, I went back to an event at this club that I had helped organize and was told I couldn't participate because I wasn't "steel qualified" ... as though some dimp lick with a clipboard was "qualified" to judge me fightin' style. Shine me boots and call me a nancy, that spoilt the biscuit right quick, I kin tell ye.

So ...

(end of rant)

Go to the event, go as histerical as you choose, and if that include eyeliner, well, me bucko, it be a big ocean.

And just by the by, while you and I would not wear wool in summer, "period" dress did include wool, which don't shrink, repels water pretty well, and lasts a long long time. Not comfortable, but ask Mr. Arab the Camel Driver about his camel-hair burnoose if'n ye're atall curious about traditional hot weather gear.

Smile.

[Hawkyns]

Grendle

That only goes so far. Whereever you go, whatever the event, you have to play by the host's rules. If it's a renfair, the rules are going to be looser than a recreation, and those are going to be looser than a re-enactment. You play where you are comfortable. I do everything from renfaires where pretty much anything goes, to re-enactments where I carry a documentation book in the car. I have 4 or 5 different kits, so I can change focus or date or authenticity level as needed. I enjoy all of them in thier own way, but the real hardcore re-eanctments are what I enjoy best, stictch counters and all.

btw, I do wear wool in the summer. Mostly with leather over it.

As far as the sword play, I've been doing it for 25 years in various groups. When I go to a group, and enter a fighting ring, I want to know what the combat conventions are. Are heads shots legal? Are we playing contact or not? What is the calibration standard? Are we using blunts, sharps, or salle weapons? Armour and masks or not?

There are a lot of people playing this game, and not all of them are too tightly wrapped. I'm willing to risk life and limb against people who have a clue, but someone who comes in and says that the rules don't apply to them is not going to be fighting me or most of the people I know. Rules are neccesary to ensure that we can do this more than once.

Hawkyns

[Nigel]

Arrgh! I prefers the simple things.

Just gimme the name o' the song, (I doesn't e'en have t'know it) the key, and let me stand where I can glance furtively at Hurricane.

And don't plunge headfirst into the pool with me guitar.

But that's a whole 'nother story...

[Captain_MacNamara]

Thanky, Hawkyns...

I'm still a little new to the whole "period" firearms thing... What's a snaphaunce?

[silverhearted maggie]

You're a pirate not an idiot! 

Sez who?

OK maybe I'm wrong?! Is that unserwear on your head?!

No that would be me husband...sorry, that's from a post from a while back.

Actually, I'm having the whole summertime coat dilemma me self.

They have an outdoor film festival here hosted by the TV station my husband works for an they're showin POTC. I've been asked to come and give the kids pirate "tattoos" and talk about pirate-y stuff...They want me to wear the whole outfit....yeesh...it's in July...in Alabama heat....

[Hawkyns]

Thanky, Hawkyns...

I'm still a little new to the whole "period" firearms thing... What's a snaphaunce?

It's an early form of firelock from the last quarter of the 16th century. More complicated than a flintlock, the steel and the pancover are 2 separate pieces, with a linkage between the two.

http://www.silcom.com/~vikman/isles/script...rearm/snap.html

Not many people make them, they are expensive and not particularly popular. Leonard Day has made some muskets, and Dale shinn has made some pistols, but either way, we're talking about a grand, give or take.

Hawkyns

[Captain_MacNamara]

hmmm

I think I'll be carry'n me flintlock and bend the truth a bit... claim it's a snaphaunce...

A grand for a pistol is a bit much fer me to be spendin'

I joined yer mailing list as well

hope ye don't mind

[Captain Scurvy Dog]

History be written by poets, novelist, good listeners & some that were actually thar. Truth of the matter be, that people was much the same as they be in this day & age... Not everyone Followed Suit! Thar was those of us who wore different attire... we be considered trend setters t-day...

i recalls a time workin' on a movie called ,"Pirates of the Caribbean, Curse of the Black Pearl"... long story how i pirated me way onto the set at universal...i wasn't invited mind ye, hahar...but anyways, the head costume designer told me that i'd have ta lose me hat..."why be that?!" says i ... the wench replies, "only the marines wore hats like that..." "where does ye thinks i got it from... can't ye see the blood!!!" says i... so if'en ye be feelin' like ye would be wearin' a coat then wears it... i would layer on clothes that i took from me fallen enemies if'en i enjoyed their look or feel (clothes that be, not me enemies) besides, the layers misguided dons who be thinkin' i be havin' more meat on me bones & i can'ts count as high as the number of times a large buckle, medalion & even a heavy vest of leather had deflected, stopped or at least slowed a ball or cutlas.

that be all i'm havin' ta say on that matter at the moment... unles any of ye salts gives me grief on this here post. Captain Scurvy F. Dog

[Captain Scurvy Dog]

...& then thar be the wenches undergarments i wore around me neck to breathe in their sweet aroma & mask the foul stench of the dead around me.... but that be another tale... Captain Scurvy F. Dog