Gay Blades(?)

[corsair2k3]

Greetings,

This is a partial continuation of another topic that needs to be split--homosexuality and pedophilia being, in my opinion, separate phenomena.

As to homosexuality among pirates:

I've done a lot of reading in primary sources for the 18th century, and am of the opinion that homosexuality was somewhat less closeted among pirates than among the RN--or the population at large for that matter.

This is not to say that I accept the thrust (pardon the pun) of either Turley or Burg's arguments. Both fall victim to the assumption that human needs are constant and must find an outlet. They presume that, given the absence of women, pirate shps must therefore have resembled certain areas of San Francisco on Saturday night.

I am of the opinion that one cannot extrapolate the present era's obsession with personal physical gratification in general--and sex in particular--without a lot more evidence than has survived. And the argument that men and women of the 18th-century were simply more reticent about that area of life ain't a-gonna cut it with me. Putting forth a historical hypothesis that RELIES on absence of evidence is flummery.

Having said that, there is some good evidence for homosexuality among pirates--aside from Culliford, who was mentioned in the original thread, Stede Bonnet was almost certainly gay. I have my suspicions about Roberts.

As to matelotage: while this institution may or may not have included the practice of homosexuality, it is clear that it was not exclusively a homosexual institution or practice--since it is explicitly mentioned that matelots would even share a woman.

Regards,

The Corsair

['Salem Bob']

Greetings,

...Stede Bonnet was almost certainly gay. I have my suspicions about Roberts.

As to matelotage: while this institution may or may not have included the practice of homosexuality, it is clear that it was not exclusively a homosexual institution or practice--since it is explicitly mentioned that matelots would even share a woman.

Regards,

The Corsair

Ahoy Corsair,

Thats a pretty definitive statement about an ephemeral phenomenon ( a person dead Three Centuries sexuality). Could you please enlighten us with some solid documentation or evidence for that?

From the last little bit, I believe you are working toward this question by assuming an answer before examining all the evidence.

[corsair2k3]

Greetings,

Aside from some anomalous behavior reported during the blockade of the Virginia Capes in the early fall of 1717, the following testimony by pirate boatswain Ignatius Pell is part of the transcript of Stede Bonnet's trial:

"[Thomas Nichols] "did not fight; and if one that Major Bonnet loved very well, had not been shot down by his Side, he [=Boonet] had blowed his [=Nichols'] Brains out; for he had his Pistol ready."

IMO. this accounts for the "...some Discomforts he found in a married State" as reported in the GHP

Regards,

The Corsair

['Salem Bob']

Greetings,

Aside from some anomalous behavior reported during the blockade of the Virginia Capes in the early fall of 1717, the following testimony by pirate boatswain Ignatius Pell is part of the transcript of Stede Bonnet's trial:

"[Thomas Nichols] "did not fight; and if one that Major Bonnet loved very well, had not been shot down by his Side, he [=Boonet] had blowed his [=Nichols'] Brains out; for he had his Pistol ready."

IMO. this accounts for the "...some Discomforts he found in a married State" as reported in the GHP

Regards,

The Corsair

Ahoy corsair,

It seems pretty thin evidence on the ground for me.

Our own society looks oddly on strong male friendships (often based round warfare) that were not sexual in nature in previous eras, and assumes homosexuality, because our society does not have, and does not encourage such friendships. Strong male friendships between peers sharing danger is a commonplace of tribal societies - in most cases without the 'taint' of homosexuality attached (with notable exceptions that are famous, such as the Sacred Band of Thebes). Northern European Societys share this common trait, it's origins in the war band of tribal chieftans. The Boucanier Matelog would clearly seem to be in this tradition.

Most moderns would not understand the companionship of Rolanz and Olivier, who were never presented during the era of chansons as both being anything other than heterosexual. Couple that with a functional illiteracy of previous societies, some modern scholars have (especially those pushing political or social agendas), and you end up with such proposterous pronouncements of homosexuality for notable figures such as Richard I (not understanding the Medieval custom of royalty symbolicaly sharing a bed, nor the commonplace of multiple people of the same gender in a bed solely for the purpose of sleeping, beds being a scarcer commodity, and centeral heating being nonexistant - people can sleep in a bed without any sex occuring - just ask some long married couples regarding this... :) ), who never had the remotest hint of such a charge against him by any contemporary, before or after his death. Please note, an enemy - of which he had many - could have used such an accusation as a strong weapon against him. Edward II of England (documentably a homosexual) was politically ruined, lost his throne, and ultimately his life - in part due to his political failures, but in largest part due to his lifestyle.

I truely do believe some pirates were homosexual, but I also strongly believe that there is no reason to suspect that any higher rate of homosexuality than is or was ever present in the general population - approximately 2-3%

[corsair2k3]

I will grant you that his preference is not proven.

The possibility of a strong nonsexual friendship is what leads me to talk in terms of "almost certain" rather than "absolutely certain"

The trouble is, the 18th century was pretty reticent about expressions of emotion of any sort. In fact, if this were a quote from the Age of the Troubadors, or the 19th-century Romantics, I'd think nothing of it. But, in my opinion, an 18th-century witness would be likelier to say something to the effect that Had not Bonnet's good friend been shot..." if the relationship in question were simple friendship. The use of "loved" is, for this period, awfully strong.

But your mileage might vary.

In any case, I strongly agree with you that there's no evidence showing that homosexuality was any more prevalent among pirates than it might have been among the general population.

On the other hand, the incidence of homosexual encounters might have been somewhat higher aboard ship than ashore--as the good Dr. Johnson noted, there's lots of similarities between ships and gaols.

Given the statistics you cite, and taking into account that there were probably more than 300 captains active between 1680 and 1730, it's interesting that we've only identified only a handful of pirates who were probably homosexual--again, I lean toward attributing this more to that era's reticence about such matters than anything else

Regards,

The Corsair

[HarborMaster]

Here is a little quote I found.....,

After you read it.., you must read it understanding that back in the good ol days of Piracy..., (This is a Pirate forum., its why we are here .., we like the whole pirate persona) Such individuals found performing sodomy and or other lewd acts .,were commonly hanged after trial., other misfortunates and or misfits had been flogged until dead in stocks and some even mistaken?.,for witches or other crimes against the church., as reason to eliminate homosexuals from society.., thus ridding the communities of what they considered to be scum?., It wasnt taught at jr high school levels to the children.., that its o.k.?..., and not many parents had to try to explain to there children why things were looking queer? It just was not tolerated., and in the closet it went !!!!!

I am not saying my opinions here., and I do have some., however I am saying., in the days of the pirate., society didnt really tolerate it...., truly it was a differant world....., a world apparently most here are drawn too.

A quote I found while researching this recent topic .. due to the boards recent forum s on the subject.

I come next to our modern Sodomites, and here I cannot but wish, that we could imitate the Dutch in one thing, who in such Cases make both the Trials and Punishments of such Sort of Criminals, to be done with all the Privacy possible, that may consist with Justice; and as the Reasons they have for it are very good, so the Reasons, why I wish it so here, are as good, and much the same.

First, The open Trials of such Cases are accompany’d with so many publick Indecencies, such immodest and obscene Expressions, as are both offensive to the Ears of the Virtuous, and serve but to excite and gratifie the corrupted Appetites of the Vicious.

HarborMaster

[dasNdanger]

Rumba said I can try this...but everyone hasta play nice, k??

A while ago Rumba and I were on a forum about the Royal Navy, and the buggery discussion came up there. Now that particular site was mostly visited by women, and so we only had the female perspective on the matter (with little documentation) and the majority of ladies swore that at sea, no man or cabin boy (or goat for that matter) was safe.

However, I had a different perspective. In reading through naval documents (the few that addressed the situation), I found that buggery was a serious offense, even punishable by death. I started questioning that it was a 'given' that every sailor broke down at some point in a voyage, and took to buggery. Sure, this stuff 'happens', and during that age it may have been so hushed up we'd never know the truth. But certainly there is some sort of documentation and, perhaps, as men - you could share your thoughts on the matter in a respectable and mature manner... *trying to keep the corks down tight in EVERYONE'S weevil cans*

On one site, I found this comment, "Despite the reputation that fuels much gay fantasy that shipmates are also bunkmates, close male to male homosocial camaraderie seems more likely in the majority of cases: pirate shipmates were united in common cause against lawful merchant ships, Royal Navy law enforcement and other marauders."

I tend to lean towards this opinion, but I would like to know what sort of factual information and documentation there is...as well as to get a male perspective on the subject.

das

[CaptainCiaran]

Okay, so I'll go first, since I be the token queer pirate here in the Pub. Arr.

First of all, I think that it be difficult fer us to transport our 21st century morals, attitudes and thoughts on the subject of buggery to 16th, 17th, and 18th century society. Sexual secrecy was certainly much more the case then than now. Today gay men and women, as well as bisexuals, or people who simply enjoy sex with their own gender are much more visible, especially in all forms of media.

I do believe that buggery existed on pirate and naval ships. However, I do not believe that 'every man broke down at some point' and engaged in male to male sex. In fact, I would guess the number who did to remain low, but yet higher than the norm because of the long times at sea. I think one area of today that we can compare is the prison population, which has a much higher degree of same sex activity than the general population. Common sense should prevail here that if guys are locked up or kept together for very long periods of time, the temptation (for those who could be tempted) to engage in such activity would be greater. If one believes that people are simply not 100% straight or 100% gay, but are somewhere at different points on a scale of attraction, then it becomes much easier to believe that, yes, some people could engage in sexual activity with the same sex under certain circumstances, while others would not.

I do NOT believe that the fear of punishment or the Law would have deterred many men. How much did sodomy laws, even in this country, deter such sexual activity? In the height of desire or passion, people will follow nature more often than not.

One other thought about piracy and sodomy that comes to mind as I type is that, of course, pirates were not the sweet little Johnny Depp characters from the movies, but were more often scoundrels, criminals, misfits. I think if ye take an element of men who were from such a mix, combine that with periods of drinking and carousing, and throw in not having sex for long periods of time, living in tight quarters and possessing a 'devil be damned' attitude, ye might get a man who is a little more willing to engage in mischievous behaviour.

One resource that folks might like to read is the book, "Sodomy and the Pirate Tradition" by B. R. Burg. NYU Press. It's a bit of a scholarly read, but quite interesting.

Cheers, mates.

[hurricane]

This was covered in the Sea Rover's Practice and I think the position was accurate.

According to the author, homosexual activity aboard a ship was no more widespread than in society. The vast majority of sailors either took care of it the traditional way or remained celebate until their return to shore when they would whore the night away or wear out their wife or girlfriend upon their return.

I seriously doubt that sailors or pirates sought out homosexual relationships just because they couldn't get any at sea. Without being too graphic, the hand is a mighty fine substitute in times of need and doesn't carry any of the complications.

The term matelot is often mistaken to infer the conjugal relationship between two sailors or pirates. But that is misconstrued. In fact, when one married the matelot had visitation rights to the wife when the other was away.

So, I would caution against making a generalization that men at sea were more promiscuous than those ashore.

-- Hurricane

[dasNdanger]

So far, what you are saying here is the way I feel about it - yeah, it happened, but not as widespread as some folks would like to think. Interestingly, it seems that most women have the opposite view, that men are dogs and will ...well...you know...with whomever or whatever is handy.

I think that a lot of people confuse male camaraderie with sexual attraction. Heck - I'm a huge rugby fan, I just LOVE watching those sweaty, smelly blokes jumping on one another, however, I know that the vast majority are straight. Male camaraderie is perhaps as confusing to women as female friendships are confusing to men. I mean, has any man ever figured out why women have to go to the restroom in herds?? (Personally, I haven't figgered that one out either...)

Now - there ARE straight men who will engage in buggery without thinking of themselves as 'gay'. In such instances it's often a case of domination, or drunkenness! LOL - I must say, my favorite joke is still the two straight guys waking up in bed together after a night of boozing, and looking at each other with those wildly suspicious and horrified expressions!! LOL...great gag...

Anywho - back to the subject at hand. I'm interested in hearing what others have to say...

das

[kass]

Okay, I'm a woman with an opinion. But unlike most thing I post about, I don't have the documentation to back this up.

I have two reasons why I believe buggery was no more prevalent among sailors than among men ashore.

Number One: In the period we're studying, homosexuality was thought of as an abberation, almost a mental illness. Even if kept secret, the self-hate involved with the practice must have been immense. Remember that homosexuality was a crime in England punishable by a jail sentence and hard labour until the 20th century.

Number Two: Unlike the other women you've run into, Das, I don't think men are sex-crazed animals who have to screw something in lieu of women or their heads will pop off. Besides, ever been on a ship in the open ocean or fighting a foe likely to kill you? There is so much to worry about that I'm sure "getting some" is the least of one's worries!

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

Just a testimonial from 4 years in the U.S Navy. Yes it happened, no it wasn't prevailant. I was aware of who was and who wasn't. They didn't bother me, nor I them. When it came time to do our duty, we all relied on each other to do what we were trained to do, for the mutual benefit of our survival. We, as a species, have made amazing progress in math, science, medicine, and technology, but as humans, very little of human nature has changed between the now, and peolple of Aristotles time. Just my humble oppinion.

Capt. Bo

[Red Maria]

According to Captain Kidd and the War Against the Pirates by Robert C. Ritchie Robert Culliford, the bane of Captain Kidd's existance was openly gay and even had a 'grand consort' by the name of John Swann. (see page 124).

Ritchie gives instances of homosexual ity among pirates on pages 123-124.

[Fox]

One resource that folks might like to read is the book, "Sodomy and the Pirate Tradition" by B. R. Burg. NYU Press. It's a bit of a scholarly read, but quite interesting.

Bit of a scholarly read?

OK, I'm just going to make some points here and let you folks draw what you will from them.

A certain proportion of any given group of people is likely to be gay, but only the minutest of insignificant proportions of people will "turn" gay just to avoid celibacy. Therefore, if there were acts of homosexuality aboard ships it was because the participants were gay, not because they'd been at sea for a long time. At the end of the day you either like a bit of backdoor action or you don't, if you do then going to sea won't change anything, if you don't then... going to sea won't change anything.

Given that the punishments for sodomy were extreme - death was usual unless the "culprit" could offer a damn good excuse, and given the cramped conditions aboard most ships, to what extent do you think people really risked it, even if they wanted to?

Are we losing sight of the fact that many pirate cruises (and indeed other voyages) lasted only a few weeks anyway?

*********************************************************

Did pirates sometimes engage in a bit of same-sex sex? Probably.

Were they driven to it because of being at sea for a long time? Nope.

Let me just throw a figure at you for the fun of it. In his research for his excellent book "Sailors", the historian Peter Earle looked at the lives of thousands and thousands of English merchant seamen of the 1650-1775 era. He found ONE case of homosexuality.

[JoshuaRed]

Speaking of Peter Earle I'm reading his book "The Pirate Wars" right now, and I'm finding it a refreshing point-of-view. First one I've read in a long time that seems to cull from sources other than the same-old same-old we're all familar with.

As to the gay pirate thing - remember what Kass said about the self-hate & social stigma involved back then...and toss in the fact that the pirate community was very small compared to other social sub-sets, and pirates were transient. In the GAOP for example, it has been shown that the vast majority of crews came from Hornigold's original gang and its offshoots. So within a timeset of the one or two years a pirate could expect to survive, and within the relatively small area of the West Indies, MANY of the pirates would have crossed paths and when that happens, word spreads. So I don't think Johnny Pirate would want it spread around the West Indies that he prefers catching to pitching.

It's a certainty that were GAOP pirates who happened to be gay, but no more prevalent than an equal cross section of Coopers, or Blacksmiths, or Fishermen, or Haberdashers, etc...

[greenighs]

This was covered in the Sea Rover's Practice and I think the position was accurate.

And what position are ye referring to, I wonder?

I would think the practice of sodomy by pirates and sailors would be much less prevalent than it is in prison populations. Sodomy in prisons is often more an act of domination and violence than it is an expression of sexuality or for the release of sexual tension. And also, because, as Capt. Bo says, of the fact that at sea, they were so dependant on eachother for survial, and all were openly armed or had free access to knives etc. If it wasn't mutually agreeable, it wouldn't be in one's best interest to proceed. Even it it was mutally agreeable, I would think it would be kept fairly discreet for reasons already mentioned. I can imagine being discovered as a willing "bottom" on a long voyage would make for a rather rough trip, or, if the crew tended towards the punitive, one wouldn't last long enough for prison.

[JoshuaRed]

Very good points Green!

[Rumba Rue]

I agree with everyone here. That kind of act between men would have been very hushed and not openly portrayed.

As you know das, we discussed this about the Hornblower episode with Capt. Sawyer. I as many did, do believe that the man would have taken a male as his consort. But to speak of it openly would have never happened. Though I have no doubt that some of the crew might have guessed it.

Funny how women together with women are pretty much ok, but men with men is not. I don't understand the reasoning behind this thinking.

[dasNdanger]

As you know das, we discussed this about the Hornblower episode with Capt. Sawyer. I as many did, do believe that the man would have taken a male as his consort. But to speak of it openly would have never happened. Though I have no doubt that some of the crew might have guessed it.

Oh, really?? I was thinking about all the talk regarding Simpson and Archie - I never KNEW that the 'good' Captain was suspected of buggery, too!! LOL!!! SEEE??!! It WAS hushed up!! LOL!! Actually, in the books, I always wondered about Sawyer and Wellard...and suspected some sort of abuse going on there. Poor, sweet Wellard...no WONDER he pushed the captain!! (Breathe ONE word of what I just said here over at horatians, and I'll have yer guts for garters!!! I have a reputation to uphold there, so I gotta keep up my 'Horatio did it' mantra...)

,

Funny how women together with women are pretty much ok, but men with men is not. I don't understand the reasoning behind this thinking.

I'm not so sure about that - the thought just creeps me right out...but perhaps because I am a woman, and have no attraction to other women. It seems, perhaps, that women - since they usually view men as sexual partners - seem to think buggery was widespread. Could it be a case of transferring their desires onto their impressions of male companionships? Just like many men - who usually view women as sexual partners - oft times think that all 'girlfriends' are lesbians.

That's why I wanted a male perspective, and it seems that everyone feels about the same - the ratio of gay:straight in society doesn't necessarily change aboard ship - and that men, for the most part, don't just give into buggery out of desperation.

Thanks for replying, everyone!! Does anyone have records of punishment for buggery? I have a few, I'll have to try to dig 'em up...

das

[Caraccioli]

One resource that folks might like to read is the book, "Sodomy and the Pirate Tradition" by B. R. Burg. NYU Press. It's a bit of a scholarly read, but quite interesting.

Bit of a scholarly read?

Righhhht. (Dr. Evil pinky turn)

Professor Burg's book is a lot of theory with very few facts to back it up. He basically admits this in the intro to the book.

[Fox]

The VOC are recorded as tying two chaps back to back and throwing them overboard...

[Daniel]

Let me just throw a figure at you for the fun of it. In his research for his excellent book "Sailors", the historian Peter Earle looked at the lives of thousands and thousands of English merchant seamen of the 1650-1775 era. He found ONE case of homosexuality.

Well, OK, but there are other studies that show a little more gay action than that. Cordingly reports that there were 11 courts-martial in the British admiralty courts for sodomy in the Seven Years' War (with seven convictions for "indecency" resulting). He also mentions that there were 50 documented cases of homosexuality amongst Chinese pirate defendants, 1796 to 1800.

I think it's pretty clear that the majority of pirates were straight, though.

[Daniel]

Incidentally, Cordingly also mentions that while the death penalty was authorized for sodomy, imprisonment or the pillory were more common punishments for this offense. (He is referring to the Golden Age of Piracy; in the 1750s the Articles of War imposed a mandatory death penalty for "buggery").

[CaptainCiaran]

Gramercy to Foxe and Caraccioli fer catching me grammatical faux pas regarding B.R. Burg's book, Sodomy and the Pirate Tradition. I mistakenly used the word 'scholarly' when I referred to it. I meant to have said 'academic' to imply that Professor Burg was an academic himself and the book was published by New York University Press.

I honestly found it a slow, unexciting read; however, for those interested in the subject, I would still recommend it as a resource.

This has been a very interesting topic and I have enjoyed reading mates' responses.

[Fox]

Well, OK, but there are other studies that show a little more gay action than that. Cordingly reports that there were 11 courts-martial in the British admiralty courts for sodomy in the Seven Years' War (with seven convictions for "indecency" resulting). He also mentions that there were 50 documented cases of homosexuality amongst Chinese pirate defendants, 1796 to 1800.

Since my post I've also checked a couple of other sources. Bernard Capp found 4 cases in the Commonwealth Navy, with no convictions (at least, no capital punishments). One of the defendants later found himself a post as cook on another ship.

It has been suggested that a passage in Ward's Wooden World suggests homo-sadistic overtones in the boatswain's flogging of miscreants. I don't think it's conclusive myself but in the interests of a balanced argument here is the passage:

Cerberus is not more dreaful to the Dead, than this Cat [of nine tails] is to the Living; but indeed she's never let loose, but by Order of the Commander, who many a time slashes a man out of the same Itch of Fancy, that he cats a woman.

I would also like to draw attention to the reaction of a seaman when propositioned by one of his shipmates in this newspaper report of 1740:

Bristol May 14th.

Last Tuesday a remarkable discovery was made about one of his Majesty’s ship’s, The Prince Edward in Kingsroad, a person who went by the name of John Davidson having drank freely became passionately fond of his messmate which occasioned him to suspect something, having informed his officer and on due examination by the ship’s surgeon he was discovered to be of the female sex and confessed to having been three years in the Privateers Service in which she was so successful as to be entitled to £150 prize money.

The advances alarmed the sailor, so he went to his officer, and the culprit was then examined by the surgeon. Quite a few of the cases quoted by Capp and Rodger involve another seaman becoming suspicious, or even having some definite knowledge, and taking the information to the ship's officers to deal with.

The examples which we do have give a good illustration of the difficulty of concealing homosexual activity on a cramped and busy ship, and the general reactions of the other seamen to it.