Making a full kit in four months

[madPete]

yup - I watched a few youtube videos and was enlightened.

[William Brand]

On 6/2/2023 at 8:19 PM, Tudor MercWench Smith said:

Behold my mountain of shirt weight white linen! 

 

This face down image of you in a pile of project line n made me laugh much more than it should have.

[Tudor MercWench Smith]

1 hour ago, William Brand said:

This face down image of you in a pile of project line n made me laugh much more than it should have.

Always pleased to amuse! 

Tonight finds me face planting in waste poly-cotton...far less pleasant but eminently necessary. 

 

On 6/3/2024 at 9:30 AM, Stynky Tudor said:

Back when Kass/Reconstructing History frequented the Pub, a few of us had similar issue, they are great patterns however. I usually ended up trying to compare them to simpler online sources and store bought (none period) patterns to make some bastardized monstrosity.

Sadly there isn't really any other pattern to bump it against. I took a quick gander through my copy of "patterns of fashion 1" (as if I'd be able to actually do anything with the graphed patterns in there lol!) but despite having sketches of Mantuas, they don't actually have any patterns of them...

 

So it's back to blindly stitching the old duvet together,.hoping I'm doing it right. It's just....the gores are literally on sideways from how I normally put gores in and it's..

 

Confusing.

[madPete]

Yup. Sometimes its just trial and error til the lightbulb goes off. Figure out a couple steps, try it on, rework, try the next steps... Best of luck!

That's my experience with drop front breeches. I finally got one pair done for myself and swore I would never do another. Since then I've had more than a few requests to make them, but since I rarely do Rev War anymore I'm sooooo not gonna worry about it.

The problem is, once you have one done thats sometimes all you needed. Lots of work for 1 item, so I feel for ye.

 

[Tudor MercWench Smith]

How?

 

How is it that my side fires are somehow both to short and too long.

 

If I get nothing else done before December, I swear this Mantua will be it. And if the stress of it kills me....don't bury me in my pitiful attempts.

 

I havent even gotten to the pleating yet....I just wish there was a video/pictograph/cave drawing/interpretive dance on exactly how these horses are supposed to sit on the main body to get past this very ridiculous mental block I am having....

[michaelsbagley]

10 hours ago, Tudor MercWench Smith said:

I havent even gotten to the pleating yet....I just wish there was a video/pictograph/cave drawing/interpretive dance on exactly how these horses are supposed to sit on the main body to get past this very ridiculous mental block I am having....

The pleating requires:
A] Either two people, the person being fit for the Mantua, and one to do the pleating and pin it into place (so it can later be remved and sewn to the correct size)
B] A good tailors dummy exactly your measurements to do said pleating/pinning upon (again before removing to stitching once the pleating is done)

To step back and abstract on this statement, the pleats should NOT be done to the size depicted in the pattern. Those are guides to illustrate generally what the pleast is aiming for, however the ciritical point of the pleats (on the torso at least) is to fit the mantua to the wearer (on top of their under-pinnings such as shift and bodys/stays). The pleats on the arms and other parts, are just decorative, and as long as those pleast don't cinch the garment in too much to fit your arms or what-not, they can be done as drawn, loosened, or tightened to your tastes.

Hopefully the above helps. I know it isn't clear diagrams or a video (I know as a visual learner those tend to help more).... but hopefully my experiences making over half a dozen of those things, from that exact pattern will help.

Edited July 10 by michaelsbagley

[Tudor MercWench Smith]

12 hours ago, michaelsbagley said:

The pleating requires:
A] Either two people, the person being fit for the Mantua, and one to do the pleating and pin it into place (so it can later be remved and sewn to the correct size)
B] A good tailors dummy exactly your measurements to do said pleating/pinning upon (again before removing to stitching once the pleating is done)

To step back and abstract on this statement, the pleats should NOT be done to the size depicted in the pattern. Those are guides to illustrate generally what the pleast is aiming for, however the ciritical point of the pleats (on the torso at least) is to fit the mantua to the wearer (on top of their under-pinnings such as shift and bodys/stays). The pleats on the arms and other parts, are just decorative, and as long as those pleast don't cinch the garment in too much to fit your arms or what-not, they can be done as drawn, loosened, or tightened to your tastes.

Hopefully the above helps. I know it isn't clear diagrams or a video (I know as a visual learner those tend to help more).... but hopefully my experiences making over half a dozen of those things, from that exact pattern will help.

This is actually eminently helpful, however I haven't even gotten close to the pleating yet. I'm sure it will be a mess when I do as I have no lovely assistants and my duct tape dress form is about 1-2 dress sizes too big now and somehow wasn't a good likeness to begin with. I will cross that bridge when I get there. 

To put the struggles to better words.....I need to see how the gores get set into the upper sides/ armscye. Like, to my brain, how it gets set into the turning gore at the bottom back then pulled over to set into the bottom front is backwards, but still makes sense and I can execute well enough...but how in the crickey eff is it supposed to sit in the side seams on the upper side? I know my cut was a bit wonky, but not that much that it's bunchy, hanging open, excess flaps of fabric etc. mayhaps does it have to do with instruction line 9 " on both the front and the back of the Mantua body, slit the horizontal line at your point C that says underarm. Also slit along the dash line that says slit here. Fold this Flap of fabric to the inside of the garment"..... Which might as well be in a foreign language for all that it's translating in my brain. 

I basically brute force sewed it all up tonight, just to see if I could make it work without understanding, and ...kinda maybe? I will keep plugging away at it and hopefully have a breakthrough soon. 

[michaelsbagley]

10 hours ago, Tudor MercWench Smith said:

This is actually eminently helpful, however I haven't even gotten close to the pleating yet.

Do you have a copy of Janet Arnold's "Patterns in Fashion 1"? Page 71 has the cutting and pleating diagram for the Mantua the RH pattern was based on. There are additional notes there that may help shed more light.

If you have it, and did not find it helpful, or just don't have easy access to it, I can try and scribble a diagram or two to try and help. Just let me know.

[Tudor MercWench Smith]

I believe that is the PoF that I do have from years ago. I did dig it out earlier in the project and didn't see anything that looked pertainate.... But it was also like 1am and I didn't even know what I was looking at probably. I will look again tonight but if you get a chance to scribble something before then I won't say no to it

 

[Tudor MercWench Smith]

I quit.

Falling asleep on my copy of Patterns of Fashion did nothing to make me understand how this gore is supposed to sit.

Anyone know anyone taking commissions on these bad boys lol

[madPete]

sorry, wish I could help☠️

[michaelsbagley]

Don't surrender!

Just to make sure I am understanding what you are struggling with, and so I don't write a novel to describe a whole series of steps rather than just the one or two you need.

Is it the main gore for the gown you are struggling with? Or the turning gusset/gore?

Taking what you typed above, it sounds like the "primary" gore is the problem.

Are you sewing the gore from the bottom hem up? (whether from the back or front edge), or stitching it in from the top point down?

[Mary Diamond]

I am happy to lend what assistance I can - check your messages.

[Tudor MercWench Smith]

Sorry I didn't respond to anyone last night....was up til midnight baking a cake for my mom's birthday. Will now post a breakdown of what's giving me  a breakdown 

On 7/18/2024 at 12:19 PM, michaelsbagley said:

Is it the main gore for the gown you are struggling with? Or the turning gusset/gore?

Taking what you typed above, it sounds like the "primary" gore is the problem.

Are you sewing the gore from the bottom hem up? (whether from the back or front edge), or stitching it in from the top point down?

It is the main gore. The turning gore went in pretty smoothly (at least I think). I then went to put in the main gore. Per the instructions ....

 

So, main gore points a and b matches up with the turning gore....

 

Which puts the fire in "upside down", at least based on the way my brain brains, where the narrow end is at the bottom and the wide end is at the top by the under arm. Ok....it seems weird but I'ma go with it.

 

But then how does the wide end of the gore fit into the under arm/armscye/side seam? Back to the directions..

 

But where point "c" is on my gore versus where point "c" is on the body does not line up without like, kinda folding the gore over on itself? And then to align point "d" you kind of have to fold it in again

 

If I had to guess, I'd guess that my gore is too long but the cutting instructions were very vague on how long to cut it as the length is supposed to be adjustable but it gives no indication of how long the gore should be in comparison. 

I have just tried to bully through and stitch it up in various configuration to see if there is just a natural logic to it once I get going but it creates a super wide excess that gaps/needs to fit into the side seam. I've tried pleating, I've tried tucking, and it just doesn't fit. Not to mention it makes the hem madly wonky (at least when it's laying out, when I drape it like a giant bag it looks kind of even but I'd have no idea how to go about heming it without it hanging weirdly.) I have tried sewing it up from the hem and down from point c with little difference.

 

Where am I going wrong?!? I would try cutting it down since length of the gore seems like it would be the obvious problem but I am hesitant cause I don't have any backup scrap fabric to finish the trial on should I mess up the gores.  Or, is it supposed to be like this and there is a truck that I'm missing to get it to fit?

I'm also not sure what to do with this flappy but they describe here, but I only care if it will help me figure out how this fits together.

 

Any help and or images of the inside of one of these bad boys would be appreciated. The only person I've found that makes/sells them on Etsy would charge me like $900 to do up one in the fabrics i would want. Worth it, but out of budget, so I've still got to DIY this despite the nervous breakdown it's giving me lol.

[michaelsbagley]

Whew... It took me at least 2 days to sit on this, and try and puzzle out in my mind what is going on.

The (hopefully) easy statement that will hopefully fgive you the moment of enlightment is:

The C mark on the front of the main torse of the pattern, and the C mark on the back of the main torso part of the pattern, and the C mark of the main gore piece should ALL match up. Think of the C as under-armpit joint of the garment.

It appears that you lined up the bottom of the gore, with the bottom end of the main torso portion, and stitched from bottom-to-up on the gore. Hence why the gore piece is confusing you, as it looks like because of that direction, the top point of your gore is up into the neck-hole.... which is never going to work.

Start all of your sewing, stitching together of the main pieces at the C mark, and I think you are going to be in a better situation.

Rough sketch diagram to follow after poting this.

Edited July 22 by michaelsbagley

[michaelsbagley]

One last word on on this that will hopefully help you (or some other theoretical person in the future)...

Think of the mantua as a "T-Tunic" with two side gores regarding assembly. After you get the main pieces together using this hopefully conceptually easy mindset, the real work lays in the pleating, which is pretty much taking a floor length (or however long you make it) T-Tunic, and then pleating it to fit, and the style of the 1690s-1720s.

[michaelsbagley]

Slight revision to head off a future pitfall I hit the first time I made one of these.

I added a couple of Xs (in a circle) to this diagram. Start sewing from the X to the sleeve opening, then sew from the X down towards the bottom hem stopping at the bottom of the upside-down L shaped slit.

Then start stitching from C to D to attach the front to torso to Gore C to D. (Do NOT stitch front of torso to back of torso at this time!)

Then stitch back torso C to A to gore C to A. The Back C mark is slightly off, so there should not be any pleats, or puckers, or gather on the back C to A (justor just above) seam.

There will be a narrow strip of fabric hanging. Ignore it. It is superfluous. It can just be tucked inside the garment when completed and ignored, or once the garment is complete, it can just be cut off.

Edited July 22 by michaelsbagley

[Tudor MercWench Smith]

@michaelsbagley this is amazing, thank you! 

44 minutes ago, michaelsbagley said:

Think of the mantua as a "T-Tunic" with two side gores regarding assembly. After you get the main pieces together using this hopefully conceptually easy mindset, the real work lays in the pleating, which is pretty much taking a floor length (or however long you make it) T-Tunic, and then pleating it to fit, and the style of the 1690s-1720s.

I speak the language of T-Tunic pretty well which I think is why what I was doing/misinterpreting in the instructions felt so horribly wrong and off to me

Between this, and a similar drawing and advice about the flappy superfluous bit the Mistress Diamond messaged me, I'm excited to rip it apart (yet again) and start over

[Mary Diamond]

55 minutes ago, michaelsbagley said:

Slight revision to head off a future pitfall I hit the first time I made one of these.

I added a couple of Xs (in a circle) to this diagram. Start sewing from the X to the sleeve opening, then sew from the X down towards the bottom hem stopping at the bottom of the upside-down L shaped slit.

Then start stitching from C to D to attach the front to torso to Gore C to D. (Do NOT stitch front of torso to back of torso at this time!)

Then stitch back torso C to A to gore C to A. The Back C mark is slightly off, so there should not be any pleats, or puckers, or gather on the back C to A (justor just above) seam.

There will be a narrow strip of fabric hanging. Ignore it. It is superfluous. It can just be tucked inside the garment when completed and ignored, or once the garment is complete, it can just be cut off.

 

48 minutes ago, Tudor MercWench Smith said:

@michaelsbagley this is amazing, thank you! 

I speak the language of T-Tunic pretty well which I think is why what I was doing/misinterpreting in the instructions felt so horribly wrong and off to me

Between this, and a similar drawing and advice about the flappy superfluous bit the Mistress Diamond messaged me, I'm excited to rip it apart (yet again) and start over

Yesssss, precisely and beautifully illustrated, Monsieur Bagley! Much better than my wobbly sketch whilst heading back after several days away for wedding duties 😊

[Tudor MercWench Smith]

EUREKA! (maybe!)

After going through all the delightful notes and diagrams provided, it seems my problem was twofold - first, following the printed directions, and attaching the gore to the turning gore, it wasn't correct, and was pointing the angles of the gore in the wrong direction (Bagley's tip about sew from point C down rather then up, and that all three point C's need to basically go together was key to figuring this out. Suddenly, my gore actually was functioning like a gore. Second problem I still need to resolve is that due to the less then detailed cutting direction, my gore is too long, so will need to get it cut down to eventually make corners A and B fit in correctly with points A and B on the turning gore. But I feel confident to make those cuts now.

But I'm a bit bleary eyed tonight so, plotting is all I'm up for. I will do the cuts and some quick stitches tomorrow to see if this is actually the breakthrough.

If it is, I am contemplating a second mock up, just so that I have practice with cleaner cuts, and the off-the-book instructions of sewing order before I actually buy and start to destroy some good fabric. If I do that, I hope to actually go carefully enough, and take good enough pictures that maybe I can post a seperate thread on here with a detailed "How-to" step by step, since all the discussion here was mostly me whining til you kind lovely pirates put me out of my misery.

 

Thank you again all!

[michaelsbagley]

Yay, glad Mary and my advice and scribbles were able to help.

And yasss, having a step by step photo guide would be invaluable. The making of this garment comes up as a point of frustration every couple of years, so having a good source of guidance to refer people to would be gold (because let's face it, the Farcebook costuming groups have nothing to say about this garment other than a bunch of hate for the RH pattern, and more vitriol in that vein, some of which might be warranted, but none of which actually helps people to make one)

Edited July 24 by michaelsbagley

[Tudor MercWench Smith]

18 minutes ago, michaelsbagley said:

And yasss, having a step by step photo guide would be invaluable. The making of this garment comes up as a point of frustration every couple of years, so having a good source of guidance to refer people to would be gold (because let's face it, the Farcebook costuming groups have nothing to say about this garment other than a bunch of hate for the RH pattern, and more virtiol in that vein, some of which might be warranted, but none of which actually helps people to make one)

If this isn't the annoying truth on two levels.... First, the amount of petty when it comes to these patterns is harsh! Secondly....it's like crickets when you bring up just about any garment from this era! I mean, this is literally the only pattern in existence! For as popular as pirates are in the pop culture psyche you'd think there would be at least more attempts at the period. Oh well...thank God I've got you guys...capable of talking about the pitfalls and shortcomings about a pattern without getting petty and also woefully competent and informed about the period.

In a slight shifting of gears, I'm planning ahead for fabric options for my final "draft" of this in one of the background browser tabs of my brain today at work. Ive been eyeing up a kind of grey blue tropical weight wool from B&T that I love, that is comparably priced to the linen from f-s, so, technically within budget. But, in my current state of cost cutting mode, I had the thought that I have about 5 yards of an unbleached linenn at home that I had used a chunk off of take slops. Now, I dont want my dress in that color, but am now falling down the bunny hole of natural dyes.... Black beans, some alum, a bucket of water and 48 hours might just get me something useable. Might start some samples this weekend.

But in general what is the experience in terms of linen v. Wool for this garment. I know either could work, but does anyone's have a preference and if so why.

Also.... any knowledge on dyeing if it's available, please share please and thank you! ( I know I'm so needy!!)

[michaelsbagley]

One last word on construction...

The turning gore/gusset: I have never needed it for any "working class"/common-woman's inspired mantua (think Laroon's Cryes of London rather than the fancy women's gown). The primary gore is so long, that unless you are making "a lady's" garment that has a train or requires bustle, the main gore will be cut short enough the turning-gore will not be required.

Wish I had advice on dying. It's been something that has always fascinated me, and I've picked up tidbits of trivia about it, but I have no real helpful knowledge on.

As for linen v wool. I've made almost equal amounts of mantuas of the two fabrics. I kind of prefer using wool. I find it adds more structure to the construction. Using linen is fine, and as long as you use a med-weight or heavier linen it should be fine

Edited July 24 by michaelsbagley

[michaelsbagley]

Oh, and I have found that as long as a working-class/common-woman's mantua can be cut and constructed from 5 or less yards of fabric. I think we managed to scrape a knee length (barely below the knee) mantua out of just over 4 yard of fabric once.... but this was after all of the oppsie-discoveries of how long to cut the front/back and gores and other parts. Cheap fabric was crucial in mathing out that.

Edited July 24 by michaelsbagley

[Tudor MercWench Smith]

42 minutes ago, michaelsbagley said:

One last word on construction...

The turning gore/gusset: I have never needed it for any "working class"/common-woman's inspired mantua (think Laroon's Cryes of London rather than the fancy women's gown). The primary gore is so long, that unless you are making "a lady's" garment that has a train or requires bustle, the main gore will be cut short enough the turning-gore will not be required.

This is actually fantastic and makes some of my lingering concerns about how I was going to make it all line up dissolve. I think on this purely macaroni prototype I might try one side with the gore, since I already have them cut, and one side without and then on the next trial run do it solidly without. Less seams are never a bad thing lol.

38 minutes ago, michaelsbagley said:

Oh, and I have found that as long as a working-class/common-woman's mantua can be cut and constructed from 5 or less yards of fabric. I think we managed to scrape a knee length (barely below the knee) mantua out of just over 4 yard of fabric once.... but this was after all of the oppsie-discoveries of how long to cut the front/back and gores and other parts. Cheap fabric was crucial in mathing out that.

I have foubd likewise. The six yards listed on the back of the pattern must be for largest possible size, in longest train configuration. I was panicking cause my cheap fabric ended up being like a half yard short of six. Well even with that shortage I could have probably still been another half yard to more shorter as my body sections got cut too long, my gores got cut to long, I could have probably cut the pattern to the next size down and I left myself some pretty huge seam allowance. 

All in all I feel confident I could do it in five. Mayyyybe 4.5, but I always err on the side of caution